(Topic ID: 193042)

What is the most pinballs you have ever seen in one place

By PinballAlley

6 years ago


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  • Latest reply 6 years ago by cfh
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    Topic poll

    “Do you think the pinball hobby is growing”

    • Yes! It is rapidly expanding 11 votes
      22%
    • Yes, a steady rate of growth 24 votes
      49%
    • No, it is holding steady. 11 votes
      22%
    • No! It is declining ! 3 votes
      6%

    (49 votes)

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    #1 6 years ago

    Hi All,
    I am trying to figure some stuff out. Aside from shows which is really an aggregate of machines, what is the largest selections you have ever seen. I am interested in two areas. The first is private collections, museums do count. The second is commercial showrooms, anywhere in the world. I am working on some demographics and I am hoping to show pinball is growing. (maybe it's not.) Eventually I am hoping to write a book. I am not sure if it should be a coffee table book or a legit hobby piece.

    thanks-Jerry

    #2 6 years ago

    PAPA Pittsburgh...

    Largest collection I know of or have ever seen.

    #3 6 years ago

    can you please be specific. Is it private or commercial and guess at the number. Please.

    #4 6 years ago

    Arcade Expo in Banning, CA. One dude's collection.

    http://www.arcadeexpo.com/

    #6 6 years ago

    Tim's Pinball Hall of Fame in Vegas
    John Dayhuff's lair... largest personal collection I've ever seen.

    faz

    #7 6 years ago

    I know of a place with well over 100 EM pins....another collector with at least 40 plus pins and 60 plus arcades. Additionally I know of easily 10-20 collectors/hobbyists with collections ranging from 10 to 40 plus games. And I am not including business that sell games. I would say there are plenty of collections similar throughout the US or other countries. I think what would be good is to capture not only some amazing collections but facts and history on the development or significance of each game.

    All of these people collect for various reasons so it would also be neat to learn about these individuals as well. I am very greatfull to have many of them as good friends and they are always sharing their amazing collections with friends and helpful to others. That has been my experience. They are passionate and are preserving a piece of history that otherwise would be lost.

    #8 6 years ago

    NWPAS for me, but it's nice that there's multiple locations in the Seattle area with 20+ pins.

    #9 6 years ago

    "What is the maximum number of pinball machines you have seen in one location?"

    BLUF: Pinball is not growing in the manner people are directly thinking. Pinball has not recovered, yet. Pinball collectors are only a small part of the equation in regards to the industry and whether it can be maintained in the future. This is technical explanation of the question for pinball historians below.

    Direct question answer: Around 2000+ games in a multi four story warehouse.
    Non-inclusive to the same owner's collection in his home which was around 300 or so.
    He owns more than people like Gene Gene Cunningham (~1650) or Tim Arnold (~1350) ever have or had.
    I only mention these two people, as most will at least recognize their names which others they might not such as Raphaël Lankar.

    There are only a handful of collectors in Europe and the Americas with more than 1000 machines.
    There are none in most other areas of world, as these are luxuries for the most part were exported from the United States, with only a handful of exceptions in the 1970s and 1980s.

    Most of the older collectors know each other by name, face, and relationship anyway, although private.

    Private ownership cannot subsidize the comparison to past operators by any possible means starting from the 1960s and which collapsed in the late 1970s. The industry never recovered.

    Although private ownership is larger than it was in the 1990s, private collections of more than 100 machines are a severe minority.
    Collectors did not expound significantly in the 2000s, games were simply gobbled up by existing collectors.
    Those that own more than 1,000 machines are less than two hundred people in the entire world.
    Expanding the canvas net, we are talking about less than 5,000 people in the world that own large volume collections (more than 100) in general.
    This is out of less than 500K machines made in the entirety of pinball history!

    People have a tendency to try to overestimate pinball machine importance based on fad growth in the past 10 years, but the circle of ownership remains very small, but did double in the past 5 years.

    There are also a limited number of each title made, which reduces every year, until a game reaches survivor status of only 10-15% production run after approximately 30 years. There are exceptions based on popular titles. This means there is a limit to the potential owners directly as well.

    The easiest example I can give of this aspect is a game like White Water.
    A little over 7K were made in 1993.
    The game is now over 24 years old.
    Less than 40-45% remain on average, which would put the total around 3150 or so in number.
    This is a smaller number than the number of original MMs made in 1997, of which many more of that title were saved outright due to popularity by either collectors or operators, as they still were making money today.
    However, many people want one for a cookie cutter WPC collection.
    This is simply not going to happen, unless the game is remade.
    That is an example of simplicity of supply and demand, but it applies to nearly all pinball games, but not to the entirety of the market or ownership in general.

    People relate what they know to other pinball owners, not the actual reality.
    That is not a "fact" within understanding the market when it comes to the people who own no games at all.
    If a person walks down their street and knocks on a door, as says, "Do you own a pinball machine?", the most common answer is, "A what?", not "No."

    When the economy is sour, this hobby shrinks to previous levels as it has done before, again the same games being purchased by the remaining hardcore collectors.
    It is not uncommon for some to have 2,3, or even 4 games of the same title in storage.

    This is a pretty important concept for those that are not aware.
    Four times this market has plummeted to be exact in the past 40 years.
    Presently, the market currently is stalling slowly for a number of reasons, some that are being self inflicted by current manufacturers.
    There is serious distrust growing in the industry.

    Some people are starting to "sell out" again, but it do not currently outweigh the influx of new potential buyers.

    Remember this quote for the future from business professionals, "A pure hobby industry is not a healthy industry."
    It is not something non-pinball enthusiasts are willing to commit to for investment out of lack of return.

    99.9999% of the world's population does not care about pinball in comparison to most any other type of collectible.
    A person should never equate market or pricing of games directly to the industry, as they are not the same thing, simply interconnected.
    Non-theorists try to oversimplify the market and the validity of ownership.
    Sometimes it is completely artificial, as a marketing tactic by manufacturers, such as terms of "scarcity" as applied by Stern in their "buy it now" mechanism of stating they never will make more of a title, and then simply continue to produce games such as Metallica, AC/DC, and other titles made in the past 18 years. That is not supply and demand either.

    Pinball machines are bulky, heavy, and require maintenance that many either choose not to want to learn, or have time for overall.
    That is not a "+" for most people to own one in their homes, let alone many.

    The nature of the current pinball industry sales catering to homes exclusively as "high end collectibles" with excessive MSRPs noted by every single major pinball historian today (a recent interview with Roger Sharpe is a great example) prohibits expansion in the long run, simply due to average private owners being priced out of the hobby and lack of volume pinball sales to the general market.

    You cannot hold an industry or promote growth in the long term with making 500 production runs (or less) of a single title.
    This is an example of what is called "short term profit methodology" and every current manufacturer knows they have to be prepared for an end at anytime. This is why the games are being designed with "throw away technology" and are not easily repaired. The same games today will not be around in smaller numbers than games made 20-50+ years ago, that were designed to be repaired by operators and technicians. People that believe they are otherwise are fooling themselves into a false sense of security. Ask any experienced operator their opinions.

    In ending, I will give this visual example again to help new pinball historians below.
    How many manufacturers in this photo remain viable or are still producing pinball machines?
    This is not even a complete "who's who" either.
    If a person does not recognize certain manufacturers, they might be surprised to learn how many games they made in comparison to every single current manufacturer today.
    Many outright dwarfed them in every possible manner, both in production capabilities, titles, and production runs, yet they no longer exist?
    Some completely failed.
    Others I cannot list, because they were never a real company.
    I will let people discover this knowledge on their own, it might be educational and fun.

    How does this compare to new ownership?
    Simply, more manufacturers means more growth overall, less manufacturers means the tide has already turned.
    2017 was a period of predicted downshift change in the industry, and it happened, even if some remain in denial.

    Keep Flipping.

    Pinball Manufacturers.jpgPinball Manufacturers.jpg

    #10 6 years ago

    It is surely a different world for Pinball. It has gone from being operator driven to hobby driven.

    #11 6 years ago

    If a person wants to learn more about the industry and how to still applies to consumer private ownership interests all the way up to today read this doctorate thesis:

    Defining Play: Producers, Mediators, and Users in the History of Video Arcade Games, 1971-1985

    A DISSERTATION SUBMITTED TO THE FACULTY OF THE UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA
    BY Jonathan Scott Clemens

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/b7k4xreavbv4m4u/Defining%20Play.pdf?dl=0

    #12 6 years ago

    A friend of mine has 80 plus machines in his basement.....crazy

    #13 6 years ago

    that I have actually been to?
    there would be two local importers that had a lot of games in storage
    one friend has many games, arcade and pinball, but they are in multiple storage units
    but after that, my small collection would be bigger (pinball wise) than any arcade I visited back in the day

    #14 6 years ago
    Quoted from pinball_faz:

    Tim's Pinball Hall of Fame in Vegas
    faz

    +1
    Forget the front showroom, get Tim on a good day and ask/beg to take a look out the back storage area at PHOF.

    Jaw dropping.

    Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

    Others I cannot list, because they were never a real company.
    I will let people discover this knowledge on their own, it might be educational and fun.

    Quoted for truth.

    #15 6 years ago
    Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

    This is an example of what is called "short term profit methodology" and every current manufacturer knows they have to be prepared for an end at anytime. This is why the games are being designed with "throw away technology" and are not easily repaired. The same games today will not be around in smaller numbers than games made 20-50+ years ago, that were designed to be repaired by operators and technicians. People that believe they are otherwise are fooling themselves into a false sense of security. Ask any experienced operator their opinions.

    I don't buy this part. What "throw away" technology are you referring to? I have/do own both Williams and Stern pins and I don't see Sterns being any harder to repair than any other pin from a different manufacturer. They are constructed very similarly and use very similar parts. As far as them not lasting 20+ years, this has almost been proven wrong already as the pinball machines Stern made in the early 2000s are nearing the 20 year mark. I'm pretty sure a high percentage of Austin Powers, Monopoly, etc still exist. I've seen many Stern machines on route that look and play fine and all the HUO ones will certainly be around for more than 20 years.

    Overall your whole post seems unnecessarily pessimistic. I agree with a lot of it and I'm sure there's a lot of truth to it but why so glum? You make it sound like it's a hobby you hate. Is that really the way you want the history of pinball to be written? All of the bad and none of the good?

    #16 6 years ago

    In reference to answering the direct questions:

    SPIKE systems and modular PC technology, not WhiteStar, SAM, WPC, A0015405, AGC, or similiar though hole PCBs. There is a very large technology difference to what was produced 20 years ago presently, starting as early as 2013. Current games are not designed for commercial long time usage, but the home market as I specified. Many SMD components are difficult to replace, and in some cases extremely non-cost effective to do so. Technicians must understand a new mindset for game diagnosis. Primary boards are severely underfused for protection with the justification this is not required due to changes in application of high power coil generation. This is a design flaw. An owner must also own the correct tools an equipment, and possess the experience to do so. Some PCB components have already been made obsolete in less than two years since 2015.

    There is plenty of current operator feedback which provides testimony to what I am describing. SAM was in comparison to SPIKE, a very good system. I have no problems with SS technology. The first techs who taught me in the 80s were the laymen that were converts from EM to SS eras, and understood the required changes. There was no "revolt". I have no issues with change, if done properly.

    Accurate historians tell things as they are in comparison to the past, not how people would like them to be. I cannot do anything, if people perceive negativity. I have no personal issue with any legitimate pinball manufacturer. Currently, the industry is entering into a period that is eerily similiar to 1994. The smart manufacturers have been preparing accordingly, and already executing changes in manufacturing. I do not know what will be the final results, only my intuition, however that is not the subject of this thread.

    #17 6 years ago
    Quoted from Anth:

    I don't buy this part. What "throw away" technology are you referring to? I have/do own both Williams and Stern pins and I don't see Sterns being any harder to repair than any other pin from a different manufacturer. They are constructed very similarly and use very similar parts. As far as them not lasting 20+ years, this has almost been proven wrong already as the pinball machines Stern made in the early 2000s are nearing the 20 year mark. I'm pretty sure a high percentage of Austin Powers, Monopoly, etc still exist. I've seen many Stern machines on route that look and play fine and all the HUO ones will certainly be around for more than 20 years.
    Overall your whole post seems unnecessarily pessimistic. I agree with a lot of it and I'm sure there's a lot of truth to it but why so glum? You make it sound like it's a hobby you hate. Is that really the way you want the history of pinball to be written? All of the bad and none of the good?

    you know, a lot of times when someone proclaims something they've loved all their life is ruined, shrinking, and dying off ... it tends to be that person who is shrinking and dying, rather than the world around them. the psychiatric community calls it projection.

    pinball is doing pretty well, all things considered. of course there aren't nearly as many machines made per year these days as there were throughout the second half of the 20th century, but it's an industry that has come back from the very brink of extinction. i doubt anyone would disagree that there are far more games being manufactured today than there were fifteen, ten, or even five years ago. and it's managed to come back even though there's practically no functioning arcade or coin-op scene to support it. pinball did so by evolving, by finding new ways to thrive: in home collections and through organized tournaments and leagues.

    and yeah, electronics manufacturing processes throughout all industries have changed in the last 30 years, too. i wonder what lifelong EM techs in 1980 had to say about the first solid state games. i doubt it was a very rosy outlook.

    #18 6 years ago

    Probably need to be more specific about this request. If you want numbers of people that "pile them like cord wood", yea i guess Tim Arnold qualifies. But that's a silly collection of basically cord wood and not much more. He has 200 set up at the PHoF, but his "big hit shed" is a freaking mess, and games are actually stacked like a pile of firewood. i don't personally think that's much of a collection myself.

    PPM in san fran has over 1000 machines. they have about 400 set up and working. the others are on end. a much better stacking situation, but they don't have room for their games either. they are in the process of trying to figure out how they will manage this (whether to continue paying $1000s of dollars a month for storage, or trim down the collection.)

    John Weeks in Banning has a nice collection at this "museum". All his stuff is set up, but i bet 50% of it does not work. But at least it's set up and they are trying to get it to a point where it all works. But that's years of dedicated work...

    PAPA (pittsburg) is now officially gone. the building was sold. I'm not sure how they store the machines now. that's about 400 games. but they are in transition right now, and i don't know what their plans are.

    Tom Taylors wisconsin location has about 300 games. He has a very nice collection (mostly EMs). My understanding is he has now retired, and is spending more time there keeping them up and running.

    The Ann Arbor michigan pinball museum (in my opinion) is the best pinball location in North America. Admittedly my opinion is skewed. But at 400 restored and working unique game titles, i can't think of another location that comes close. Nearly complete collections of WPC, system11, dataeast, bally -17/-35, Bally 6803, Zaccaria gen2, gottlieb wedgeheads, bally zipper flippers, stern m200, etc etc. Everything gets gone through and restored before it hits the floor. And the games are exercised and cleaned to make sure they stay working and nice.

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