Games like MET GB IM ACDC TRON GOT TWD all have one thing in common...they are FUN!

Since I'm not someone who'd buy NIB, I just play what I can find on location. Given that, I don't think I've ever really had a bad time playing a newer Stern game. In some locations where they'd have a mixture of 90s B/W games and new Sterns, the Sterns almost always play better (just because they're newer).

But then there are the rules. I can usually progress pretty deeply in the rules of a 90s B/W game on a regular basis these days--especially in arcades where the pf isn't smooth waxed and lightning fast. So if I play a game or two, I usually find myself exploring most of the games features and accumulate a replay or two, then I get bored and hand the replays to the kid behind me. On a Stern game, I almost NEVER get deep enough into the rules to max it out, so I find myself playing them more than I'd play a B/W. I see many people expressing the same thoughts when they have them in their collections: Deeper ruled Sterns hold people's attention much longer than the shallower rules of past.

The B/W (honestly Bally and Williams were the same pin company in the 90s) games from the 90s are creative and did some wonderful things with code. It was an evolution of the great playing early SS games that were admittedly light on code.

The early 00s Sterns were a step back. Struggling to stay relevant, Stern gave up on code on some of their games to push out the next game. That created games that feel unfinished.

Newer Sterns are really great but you still need to wait a few years after release to ensure that code gets some polish. Code is where Stern has jumped ahead of B/W DMDs. The depth is really amazing. They still put out a dud once or twice a year but that was the deal with B/W in the 90s.

Stern has never really done anything amazing with their playfields. It's a lot of the same old stuff. A bash toy or two, a couple of ramps, two flippers, an Italian bottom but the code is what really elevates their games a lot of times. When they did veer away from standard layouts it wasn't popular (WWE).

With regard to flippers, I personally like all flippers of every era. EMs, SSs, DMDs. All I want from a flipper is to be able to make the shots I'm supposed to be able to hit. Nothing's more frustrating to not be able to hit a ramp because there's not enough power in the flipper or make a target because the geometry's off. The only flippers I thought were a little different were P3s but it wasn't because of playability.

Which newer Stern did you play? It's weird you would form such a strong opinion based one one game.

Anyway, to answer your question, it's the depth of the ruleset where modern Stern games undeniably crush Bally/Williams.

Bingo. For players who have the skills to keep the ball alive for longish periods of time, and are willing to put in the effort to learn the rules, modern Sterns are incredibly deep and nuanced.

It's probably a lot like board games. If you compare modern board games to older stuff like Monopoly...they're the same in that the boards are similar, they use similar components, and some familiar mechanics. But on those old board games, there is generally only one path to victory...so to win, you just need to know how to win, and then hope you don't get screwed along the way by the random elements. Modern games have many paths, 30 page rule books, and entire forums dedicated to the nuanced strategies.

That's cool you brought up board games. I collect board games and love the long forgotten board games of the past more than the complicated board games of the present. It's fun to play something like Bargain Hunter which is just first to complete your shopping list wins. The enjoyment comes from the antics between the people playing instead of the in depth strategy and rules explanation required for some newer board games.

It's a good analogy to EMs and early SSs to DMDs.

I'll also add that in the first 6-12 months that I became obsessed with pinball (three years ago), I was a Bally/Williams snob. Those games have what feels like higher production values, great art/sound, and are easily accessible. But these days, I rarely want to play TAF more than once...because the gameplay has become mindless.

Yes, it's still a great game. But if I only got to play one game for the rest of time, it would be (almost) any game made since 2003...over (almost) any game made before that.

I wouldn't go that far. People get tired of Sterns the same way they get tired of older games and in a party or competitive setting I find the shallower rule sets to be the most fun. Tough as nails EMs or SSs really prove who's the better player with a slightly higher percentage of random chance to make things interesting.

There's just too many games I haven't played for me to make that decision. Thankfully I don't have to.

The only newer Sterns I really like are Spiderman, tron, & acdc. I'm going to play a Ghostbusters premium today and decide if I like it enough to buy one but sounds like they've rushed that game out & it requires allot of tweaking. I'm personally more fascinated with JJP, and looking forward to playing Dialed in.

People talk more about the newer games because they are new. We've had almost 20 years to discuss anything that Bally / Williams did, and for the most part we've discovered it all. The Stern stuff is new.

I have for the better part of those 20 years debated anyone who said one type of machine is better or worse than any other. It's all about taste. A lot of collectors when I started loved the B / W games because they were the most likely to be found on location when they were falling in love with pinball.

In today's market, a lot of people who are buying games are buying because they remember how much fun pinball was, but they want the reliability of a new machine, so they are buying the Stern games. And, Stern has been deliberately targeting this market, something that B / W never did (nor did Gottlieb, Sega, Data East, Alvin G, or Capcom, for that matter), and it turns out that people love that about the newer games. If you want to spend more and get something with extra bells and whistles, you can!

Those games are harder, but the randomness is much higher. A top level player (who has skills across all eras) playing for money against an inferior opponent would never choose an EM or early SS.

I also think the new Stern games are just that - "new". They have more complex DMD animations, LEDs in the playfield, newer themes to draw people in on first play. Then the more complex rule sets keep the hardcore players happy.

I actually don't like many of the newer Sterns (GB and LOTR being notable exceptions) but they are definitely flashier and deeper. I think I fall in the middle currently - experienced enough to get perturbed about the build quality but not a good enough player to be able to appreciate the deep rule set.

I wouldn't call it a fascination but people like new things. Until recently Stern was the ONLY one producing new pins. They have chosen some great themes. Game play is fun on some of them.

For many of us we have been playing TZ, MM, AFM, TAF, etc. for quite a long time and they are still fun but you can only play them so much before they get old.

And now with more new pins being made people are excited about more choices....plain and simple.

I wouldn't say never. It's a great equalizer if you're coming from behind and you need a miracle. Alien Star was routinely picked in the PAPA tournaments.

Also I've seen "top level players (who have skills across all eras) playing for money against inferior opponents" do it because the inferior opponents have inexperience in early SS or EM games. A lot of competitive players are lacking in their knowledge of older games' rule sets and gameplay because they only get to practice on newer games. This is a flaw to strategically exploit.

The top level players are usually in the classics tournaments as well as the main tournaments and are confident in their abilities on these machines despite the higher level of randomness.

You lost me at "I've played one of the newer ones".

In the past, most collectors bought old games and fixed them up themselves...the $$$ collectors sent them out for expensive restorations. Those collectors generally didn't care about Sterns, but maybe would buy one if it was from a favorite B/W designer like Ritchie (Spider-Man), Gomez (LOTR) or Lawlor (Family Guy). Those collectors pretty much have the collections they want at this point, and now there's a new type of collector that's emerged: The NIB/Stern only collector. Finding projects or auction games is mostly a non-starter these days, and they don't want to pay too much for what they consider "used and dated" ...so, they go new only. Who's got new games with themes they like? Stern.

To me the thing the OP is talking about is flipper feel and I 100% agree with that. I feel the difference, don't you? I mean, the flippers on the Williams machines from the 90s all feel, I don't know, more decisive(?) and solid and biggest issue for me, and Ghostbusters (Premium)-le is maybe the best example of this, is the cheapness factor. The new Stern toys and boards and really all plastics on them all look like they won't be wearing very well. Zillions of Williams machines that are 25+ years old look like new and are rock solid because they were just plain built better. I am gonna guess (and it is just one neophyte's guess, granted) that 20 years from now a 2015 Stern will not work, or if it does work will look like crap (unless you never played it) because they are as plastic-y as everything else built in 2015. Yet they cost a fortune, even adjusting for inflation they cost more by far than Williams machines did back then. The only currently produced pins that will hold up like Williams have are the JJP tables already produced (#the-hobbit and Wizard of Oz) and in fact I would even go so far as to say that the bizarre Dialed In pin looks and plays like it IS a Williams machine (because of the Lawlor factor). Just sayin'.

Doesn't this prove my point? If you need a miracle, then you pick a game with more randomness. I would absolutely pick Alien Star against the worlds best players. They would not pick it against me.

Sorry...I'll stop now, this is getting off topic.

I would agree with this.

For a few years, we used a certain game called 3 Coins at the MGC in our tournament. If you look at the game in IPDB or something like that, it looks like it is a pure random game - the flippers are like a foot apart! While a number of players avoided it, a few would pick it as their choice every time because there was definite strategy to it, and once you figured that out you could consistently score higher than people who hadn't figured it out.

I have found the same to be true of every EM that I have played. Once you figure out how to best exploit the machine, you can consistently score higher than the other players, even though if you have a slightly higher chance of not getting as good of a score. I find this to be amazingly similar to how new games are. It's just when you walk up to them, the skills that you need to win aren't nearly as readily apparent.

I guess you've never seen a routed B/W games? Yes, Williams games were generally engineered better...but plastic is plastic, welds are welds, mechs are mechs...shit breaks over time. I picked up a Monster Bash that was completely trashed and 95% of the switches didn't work. The B/W games connectors get charred. That never happens on Sterns. Yesterday one of the drop target ledges on my Hobbit shattered...again - plastic is plastic, doesn't matter who made it.

Because new games are new.
The last of the BW games came out almost 20 years ago

I personally love and appreciate all pins but definitely prefer the older b/w dmd pins set up very difficult. I was collecting both stern and b/w but have since been getting rid of the sterns for some great b/w pins. Reason being is i play for fun and the older pins are just that, but set up difficult they can last much longer and not get stale as quickly as they wld set up easy . While the sterns have great rules they just are not as fun due to no real variations or unique toys between them.... and get stale bc they are so deep you never see half the game. You end up playing the same few modes over and over never seeing most the game unless you have 30-45 min games. I find the b/w pins set up hard to be the perfect mix of fun, rules, ,humor and lots character and variation between them . Not to mention all the neat toys they have.

Gottlieb games were generally engineered better. Actually, like, always. They just didn't earn worth a damn, so no one remembers them.

B/W games often showed up with switches out and issues, but because they earned well and kept earning well, people kept them around.

DE games often showed up with switched out and issues, but earned like CRAZY for a while, before they dropped off and people didn't route them as much.

Sega games greatly improved on the reliability factor of the machines, but generally earned poorly again. And yes, I know they were DE that just changed, they just changed their philosophy at that point.

Stern kept the Sega reliability when the company name changed again, and started working on improving the fun factor.

Today's Stern games are the most reliable games out of the box there are. A lot of people give B/W a pass because they either were routed so of course they are broken, or they got completely rebuilt and tweaked by someone who knew what they are looking at. If you ask ops who routed all the games at the same time though, they will confirm today's games are the most reliable out of the box.

(This has nothing to do with "flipper feel" or whatever, but is just an interesting thing...)

Stratego was a total blast for me back in the day

No big deal. This is kind of a discussion topic anyway and I'm enjoying it.

My first sentence did confirm you're point but I wasn't just talking about lower skilled players picking those games for a comeback. Sometimes the top players have a bad game or two and need to make a comeback and they pick older games to try to do it. I've seen Bowen do it. I've seen the Sharpe brothers do it.

Also...

Again if you knew your opponent was inferior on a game of any era that you were confident about, why would you not pick that game?

I think we're also forgetting how games are set up on the day of the tournament and what kind of success you've had on a game that day. Those make a difference for me when I'm choosing.

Until you actually play them a bit, and realize the rules are several levels deeper.

Exactly. I owned a TZ and sold it once I got bored. I have a ToM and it may be next to go -- just have done everything I can do and while it's a great game, just not deep. The newer Stern games (I have GoT and GB) generally feel cheaper (compared to my WOZ, particularly) however all my newer games have such great depth you can approach the game differently every time.

Despite all this -- and maybe it's a good thing -- but given how far computing and technology have come, pinball has been pretty slow to evolve.

You're clearly spewing a bunch of nonsense based on a personal bias.

Agreed! They are a blast!
I really enjoy Ghostbusters, The Walking Dead, Star Trek, Game of Throne.....SO Much Fun! I also love the A list 90's Williams machines too and the early Stern Machines like Lord of the Rings......All Fun! He He just look at my collection.......

"What is the Fascination with New Stern Games?"

Im easy......Simple.

They're New!

(+ most of the above!)

I would rather have my Tron and SM over any B/W game.
Don't get me wrong I really like B/W games, played them and have owned quite a few as well but I just don't get the same rush from them that I do from those two Stern games.
Horses for courses though, buy and play what suits you. It's pinball and it's all good.

Did not say they were better . The Williams games are 20 yo, we have played them, we have owned them, we have talked about them. We know them inside and out. A new Stern is an adventure that awaits

Yea true, but the toys and mechanical parts are several levels below....

See im the exact opposite as i got super bored with acdc luci, imve, rbion and soon to probably leave also is met and twd. They are just missing the it factor for me. Im sure i will own more tho bc well.... they are new lol.

It's all good.
Viva La Difference.

There have been plenty of great new Sterns over the last few years and I'd love to add one to my current collection of all B/W titles. GB for example looks like it would offer a unique experience you may not get with a 20 year old game. There are even some DE titles I wouldn't mind having. Some variety is a good thing. Do I have to turn in my B/W snob card now?

Agreed. 90s B/W play fields are mechanically superior and more elaborate. But modern Stern rule sets keep the game interesting for a longer period of time, if you play a lot. Just my opinion, of course, and both styles are awesome imo.

Come on over to my house, pop a couple of beers, play some pinball on my Sterns with me and see how you feel about Sterns after that.

because its new pinball, theres something special about unboxing a brand new pinball machine.

Pinball is pinball. Guys designing and coding new games are the exact same people that were working on B/W games. Technology has changed and modern games have better lighting, sound, and deeper code. New games feel a bit different but flip just fine for me. It would be nice if Stern put a little more effort in details and getting code polished. That said, my B/W pins are not exactly bug free either. Personally, I find it hard to spend big money on an old game when you can buy a brand new one cheaper. Less issues and less work to get looking/working great.

This question is deeply interesting to me because I just recently acquired the space to allow buying more machines and keep debating new sterns. Here's the breakdown as far as I can figure it out:

Pros:
- deeper rules
- new & easy to buy
- opportunity to own a NIB game (sadly, in the 90s that was an impossible dream)
- current themes that appeal to me/my kids (STLE, TRON, etc)
- much fancier tech if you buy JJP (but I realize the OP is about stern)
- feels more reasonable to spend $8k on a new game than $5900 on a game from 1992

Cons:
- seriously long games - I prefer my games hard, not long
- very unfamiliar feeling; lends itself to feeling like the game is "cheap"
- stupid playfield decisions (ghostbusters prime example of a playfield that's just broken with airballs all over the place, inlane dividers that hop the ball into the outlanes, and poorly sized targets; just one example of many stern games with playfields I'd need to work on first before I'd want to play - which is nuts for NIB)

So far my collection contains STTNG, TAF, WH20, and JY. JY is the oddball mostly bought for crowd appeal and juvenile humour; I'm rather surprised I like it. The other ones are all, in my opinion, great games when set up hard that are unforgiving enough to make a full play through rare; and a full play takes only 20 minutes, not an hour. I consider shorter play times a feature - I don't have hours to kill every time I step up for a quick game.

Osric

"New" = "Shiny".

If an enthusiast has never seen a title, let alone play one, it is unlikely they can enjoy it or have an opinion.

New generally constitutes games made in the past 5 years, which is the predominance of recent owners.

That is why owners step over themselves for releases, and leave some older games alone.

I see an Iron Man in your future.

When droping between 6 on $10,000 on each new stern you have to be excited. No matter how good are bad it is. (nobody wants to admit they pissed 10 k on that new machine and it really sucks.) For whatever reason 1st grade art work,unfinished code or just bad theme gone off the rails. There seem to be a few types of people in pinball. Most people are a B and C type blended which is good.

A The ones that buy every new machine and over pay just to be able say look at me i just bought ... 1 to 5 years later they dump it because it's not the new thing and they don't really play the game anyway.

B The people who actually play the machines and can afford to sink 6 to 10k every so often on a new toy for the room while trading other machines for the next holy grail machine.

C The ones who have yet to find/don't live under or near the money tree. So we buy the beater/project machines get them fixed. End up keeping them because we have too much in them and just enjoy the game with it's flaws. Sometimes sell them to the fund the next project. Because you have 2 or more projects in the pipeline awaiting the repair/restore process.

I just watched

and now I have to invite myself over to an acquaintance's house where they have a recently purchased Iron Man.

To be honest I am not sure I have the skills for that game but it does look like good fun!

Osric