I have plenty of games that are not flow or combo based that I really enjoy. None of them have balls flying off ramps or jumping inlanes or setting in the pops for hours like GB and TWD do. And to answer you question Congo has great flow and uses ball gates, posts, and diverters extremely well to set up the next required shot. My reply wasn't to say that all games need to be combo or flow based, it just stating that I do not consider most stern games to be smoother shooting in any way shape or form other then AC/DC and ST.

Depending on the particular mode, Mustang has great flow.

I could rattle off plenty of BW pins with quirks...balls getting abnormally rejected...balls getting launched...pops that like to occupy the ball...dropping off wire forms. Every game is its own beast and needs some tweaking. It's certainly not just relegated to Stern games.

I am a fan of Stern but as for ball time Sterns outlines are set for longer ball time compared to W/B

No doubt, most of the companies have made some games with shots that just didn't work out as planned. But do you think sterns in general shoot smoother then 90's B/W games? Maybe I'm just forever scarred from GB and TWD experiences lol.

I like a good mix. I've got two 93 Williams "super pins", Sterns IM (all of those being among my all time favorites) and then one slot that gets rotated (currently being occupied by Goldeneye).

Can't put much value in opinions from someone whose experience comes from selling the game after 30 or so plays.

Somewhere o-din is smiling. Although maybe he would go back even further?

Every time a bell rings (or older games are preferred over modern Sterns) O-din gets his wings, or a beer maybe.

Yeah... I hear you. From my perspective, depends on the game. I've owned 4 Sterns: TWD, ACDC, IM, and ST. ACDC, IM, and ST are all smooth shooters (especially ST and IM). TWD has its moments, but I don't think it was designed to be a smooth shooting game, which is partly its beauty. The other night I pulled off a great combo shot... right ramp, to orbit between the bumpers, to Woodbury. It happened so fast...and because the game is tight and tough, it was a a great moment.

I don't find myself feeling as if Stern layouts are cheaped-out or poorly engineered, tho. I get plenty of airballs of my TAXI center bank (the other day I had two center shots that were popped up onto the right wire form... my JM can get moving so fast that I've seen balls hop to the shooter lane... occasionally the ball flies of wire forms on my BSD and TAF. I always chalk it up to being "pinball." Just the nature of speed chaotically contained, essentially, in a box.

I don't remember asking you to value my opinions? I knew almost instantly that I made a mistake on GB. No need in pretending like it was going to be something else. I know what I like and that one wasn't it. It was my mistake for getting caught in the hype to purchasing it. My loss was someone else's gain. I have numerous games that I have had for years that may never leave. It's pretty funny to me that you take the time to go between threads pulling quotes like that. I don't like TWD and you own one, is it really that big of a deal to you?

Nothing wrong with bells and chimes Kenny. Although the bell on my taxi sometimes scares the hell out of me it's so loud. Maybe I'm just getting old and easily startled though.

Not for everyone. There are many different types of collectors/players, and some of us find the older games just too boring. I like the "alive" nature of the 90's era on up...music, light shows, ramps, toys, magnets, multiballs, modes, voices, narrative, humor, etc. Old games are interesting from a historical standpoint, but "clink clink clink ding ding drain" is not fun to me.

I think the old EM's are "okay" and I will play them from time to time.....no plans to own another one though.

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Strawman, lol. Doesn't change the point that your strong opinions have little to no value with such a small amount of experience. It's been even more enlightening to see you double down rather than acknowledge such shortcomings. It has nothing to do with me. Look in the mirror.

That's fine, it isn't for everyone. Too bad you have such strong posts after so few plays; it's just common sense to discount such feedback and behavior, more so when the poster is okay with such behavior and history. Ad hominem attacks seem to make you feel better, so you may as well go for it. Sorry for having a very good memory (it wasn't that hard, as I don't often I read about someone buying, judging and selling a new game after 30 plays, lol). I actually take in and evaluate feedback here on Pinside. Otherwise I'd be getting some bad advice.

Behavior? Attacks? I think you are reading way to far into any of my posts. Feel free to trudge through any of my posts and my history and make whatever judgements you like if that's what makes you feel good. Simple fact is you do not know the first things about me. I just thought it was funny that you actually went back to dig up that post. I've played a lot of pinball and I know what I like. If you don't think it's possible for me to know if I like something that fast that's your opinion and you have every right to have it. Not sure why me selling a game after 30 plays bothers you so much but whatever floats your boat. You also assume that mine is the only one that I played. I can only assume that there are zero pinball machines that you dislike that you have played under 30 plays?

I know how you judge games. And that's what I want to know most on Pinside about a member.

And let's get rid of the misdirection that seems to be going on. You are welcome to make a personal decision after 30 plays. As you say, you know yourself and your preferences. And a machine may be so much different from what you want in general gameplay that you know it right away.

But 30 plays is not enough to get to know a new machine very well or learn the intricacies of its setup, so there is little merit in very detailed/strong feedback.

I try to not judge a pinball machine very much until I get a lot of games on it. There is no rush. And I avoid giving detailed feedback or caveat the feedback when I don't have much experience. It's just common sense.

There's no misdirection. You are the one upset about it me selling a game after 30 plays. You have posted about it more then once. I judge pinsiders based on transactions, meeting them at shows, playing pinball with them. People are free to like and dislike whatever in the world they want. That doesn't tell me anything other then I have different tastes in the games then they do. This may shock you but there are other people out there that feel the same way about GB as I do. There are also lots of potential buyers that want to hear actual feedback from people that are not concerned about fluffing a game that they own. The game is a hit, lots of people like it, it's not for everyone and people on the fence have a right to hear both sides. If you don't think that's valid just put me on ignore and you won't have to read my opinion on any games ever again, problem solved.

LOL. More ad hominem attacks. You're consistent at least with the shoot the messenger angle. There's little need for me to post any more since you continue to attack me and not acknowledge your posts.

I don't give two sh$%s about you selling your game
I don't own GB
I never knew other people didn't like GB
I don't really care about GB one way or the other
I judge others opinions here based on their history so I can find good/relevant opinions and feedback

--No matter how much you try to deflect, it's not about me. It is about your posts and your history.--

You are obviously free to like and dislike whatever you want
You are obviously free to have your own preferences
Your feedback and history here has lots of fluff and hyperbole along with this glaring lack of experience

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Don't worry, I'll keep reading your posts, at least for the entertainment value.

Awesome, I always thought having an internet stalker would feel more fun and a lot less creepy Its pretty strange to have someone following me around judging and attacking me.

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Actually really surprised and impressed it took this long for this thread to get completely shat on.

This doesn't account for the fact that Stern puts out games year after year. They can't all be flow monsters, because we all have different tastes. TWD was never meant to be a flow game, but GOT Pro is. Tron was too. If every game was the same flow over and over, we wouldn't like them. We demand differences. Different rules and flow year after year.

Absolutely, Stern makes some good games and there's some good diversity there. No denying that. My issue with TWD and GB were over issues upon unboxing and just not liking the shots and the layouts. I can see why others would though. I have a good friend that love both of those games and thinks I'm crazy for not liking them. He also doesn't like some of the games that I do like. Different strokes for different folks.

I only played GB once so no opinion on that but TWD is one of my all time fave games. I just love the atmosphere it brings. The gameplay is visceral like wrestling a tiger. Hit the well walker or prison and prepare to shake the machine to gain control again. I love it because of that.

I'm not a flow guy. I don't like looping ramps that return nicely and gently to the flipper. The best flow game I've played is Demo Man. I've only played it a few times but the first time I had a hold of those gun grips and hit like 4 different ramps with 4 different flippers. That was a pretty cool feeling. GOT pro is decent as well. Most times though I stay away from games like that.

That ball must be moving fast on BSD. All of the wire forms come from a diverter or VUK.

Doesnt lose much speed when diverted to castle lock...

What is a routed game?

It's been 'on route' in arcades, etc being beaten on by players and not maintained as frequently as a collector would

Dude, you just unleashed Hell on Pinside hahah. Everyone has their opinions on machines! You are entitled to your opinion just as everyone else is!

SS has awful flow and is super stop and go. I don't think there is a game out that is smoother shooting than star trek stern. White water isn't super smooth shooting either. So yea I'd say your comparison list is perfect except the sterns (minus iron man) shoot better. I don't think B/W has anything that compares to star trek or acdc for smoothness of shot flow.

I'd say B/W best shooting pins are attack from Mars and Johnny mnemonic. But those are no better than star trek, Metallica, acdc, spiderman, game of thrones pro for shot flow.