Personally, what do i like about modern sterns? The speed and flow. Designs are so much smoother now - Super fast, good ball returns, lots of action, so much better than the old classics. Sound has much improved also.

While i agree code and rules are deeper - that doesnt always make them better. i.e. missing out key sound effects, choreography, and refusing to return to the code and finish it is where stern lacks the most in their code dept. But overall, yea, rules are much better in games of today than yesterday.

That was Lonnie's formula.

There's bad fields, and then there's baaaaaad fields. Good code on a bad field can still be great, as long as the player cares about more than just making shots and feeling good. Some fields are just so bad that nothing can save them though. On the spectrum of good to baaaaad code and fields, I'd take good code and midling layout over midling code and good layout any day

Austin Powers was pretty much based on Monster Bash...and that was Lyman's formula at the time.

Do you have any specific examples? Interesting.

B/w has that great vintage vibe and they play like nothing else...even blindfolded you know you are playing a bally..
But the later ones were sometimes shallow too,it only takes 3 balls to get to the wizard mode of monster bash or scared stiff.
I never been a Stern fan but they are really stepping up to the plate lately.( never thought i would ever say that last bit).
My acdc luci is real fun,got le i like to play when i am alone,great vibe..and gble is just insane..real awesome.
I sometimes bitch about my sterns too,but they are way way better than they used to.
I had a wozecle and amazing as it looked,i got nowhere in the game,thus no fun at all.
So let's say Stern surprises me and received a lot of my money lately.

Technically if your good enough you can finish any pin in one ball?

Yup but i suck

And btw let me add: i am done fixing b/w pins...the sterns always play

I used to think 90'S pins were the ultimate. Then I started collecting a lot of newer Sterns. 90's pins were great because they were so much more advanced and challenging. Now they're more collectible than before because of The Limited Supply. I simply just don't find them challenging anymore, to easy to beat. I still find the newer Sterns more challenging/fun than any other games made.

I seem to be fixing the sterns more than my b/w.... i so redo them when i first get them but they hold up very well after that.

Come down and play mine buddy.... i guaranteed they will kick your butt. Dont get me wrong they aren't stern tough due to the limited depth of the ruleset bc of the technology of the time. However i find them just to be the right amount of difficulty when set up hard . I can get pretty deep into them ,but only beat them or get very close maybe 5 in every 100 games. Hell i never get to see half of the stern pins bc they are just to deep and i dont have 30 minutes to play one game and they tend to get boring due to seeing the same few modes over and over trying to get to the deeper stuff... i wish someone cld recode the b/w pins bc they wld be that much better with another code option.

I find the majority of B/W games easy to beat regardless of how tough they are set up.

If you like the older games stick with that. We prefer the newer Sterns and have both new and old games in our collection. We prefer shorter ball times and find most of the 90s games a bit too easy.

Overly long games have not been a problem for me as my Sterns usually kick my butt. They're always fun to play though.

A good mix of both is always nice. Any pin csn be set up super hard like papa settings or super easy like some my friends have theirs lol. Even system 11 pins can be made difficult which is great for better players on home use.

I find it fascinating that some pay big money for them before ever playing them. Especially with NIB code and bargain basement licensed themes from yesteryear.

Many new Sterns are a lot of fun. No doubt about it. But I think a lot of it boils down to the fact that many smart people have been duped into paying $6700 for a "Premium" pinball machine when a similarly-equipped machine 8 years ago (like BDK) cost 4K. They don't want to lose their shirts, so the help to keep the ruse going.

I'll probably get some flack for this, but: most Lawler games? I don't think I've ever actually had fun from the shooting and flipping on FH,WW,TAH,TZ. Not that I don't often enjoy playing the games, but their layout is severely lacking.

Spiderman and Star Trek have almost the same layout, but I can't stand Spiderman. The rules aren't interesting at all. Star Trek's code isn't the most engrossing thing out there, but...

For an older example, look at all the Gottlieb EMs with two banks of drops (Spirit of 76, Fast/Quick Draw, Far Out, probably more). The upper halves vary a bit but the main aspect of their layout is the same. But in Spirit of 76, all you do is complete the drops to light double bonus: boring. Fast Draw gives you the cool sharpshooter targets after you're done, fun itself and a nice reward for getting there. Far Out has a great risk/reward system involving which banks/targets are lit. When I first played Spirit of 76, I found it to be incredibly boring, and stayed away from 'dual drop' layout games for a long time. Changing the 'code' and suddenly Far Out is one of my top games.

I often see the layouts of Skateball and Flash compared. Flash definitely has better 'flow' than Skateball, but I find Flash to be a snoozefest due to the rules.

A lot of people love the JJP games, but every time someone talks about the layout it's complaining.

Interesting. Pat Lawlor games are among my favorites but I can follow what you're saying. I'm surprised by your comparison of Spider-man and Star Trek (assuming we are talking the Stern versions) however; Star Trek has never grabbed me while Spidey is a definite future purchase and one of my favorite modern Stern games.

What? Layout of WOZ is fantastic. People didn't like it because the geometry initially makes it feel clunky. But once you get comfortable with the shots, it shoots great.

Stern Star Trek, yes. Same designer, nearly the same shot layout. Same upper flipper with a 'shot' underneath. Just narrow the sandman to the single drop, replace the single lock target and green goblin targets with a kickout and three lock targets. If they had only released one of those games, they could have used either layout and no one would have batted an eye. Star Trek isn't my favorite code or anything (I prefer modes with more thought required) but Spidey has one of the most unimaginitive, generic rulesets I've ever seen.

I enjoy most Lawlor games too, but I can't help but think they would be much better if, eg the pops on addams or funhouse were replaced with some extra shots. But I think the games were basically designed around the multiball, for the most part.

I don't think it's being comfortable with the shots so much as there hardly being any (at least the way that most modern players are used to). Woz has, what, three 'shots'? (ramp, right orbit, and Rescue PF VUK) is the left orbit even a shot? I've never seen anyone shoot it in my life. Besides from that there's just a ton of targets (which people don't shoot for) and some rollovers (which people don't want to shoot for). I don't think it's that bad personally, but most people I've talked to think it's a very bad layout. But it has great code which makes the best of that layout to produce a pretty good game. I think you'd at least have to agree that there are a lot of games with better layouts, but (I assume since you own one) that you still think WOZ is a good game. Now, if you took away the code, and replaced it with the code for Austin Powers, would you still think it was a good game? I suspect it'd be an even worse game than Austin Powers, personally.

Like any game, someone's analysis is only as deep as experience permits. You should trying digging into WOZ, you'll be surprised.

Care to share? I don't have easy access to any WoZs in the area to dig into for days to figure out all the details, I just know how to start a few different modes that'll usually lead to an okay score. What exactly makes the layout "fantastic" to you? I've never heard any praise for it in the past.
How often/why in a game are you purposely shooting for other things besides those three shots? Besides if you happen to have lit the ball or saucer.

This will get you headed in the right direction. Page 6

http://papa.org/wp-content/uploads/WOZ-Rulesheet-Version-1-24.pdf

No, I asked you to id the games. You shouldn't get any heat for answering me. If they're thinking about it

That is interesting...I think those games are among the best ones made.
Thank you for your opinions!

I agree. We should be able to discuss games pros and cons without getting into fanboy mode and attacking.

WOZ never grabbed me while on location. I wasn't able to figure out what I was supposed to do in the first game and that made me reluctant to try again. For comparison, TWD has the bash toys (which I complain about their use in too many Sterns) to gain your attention when you try it the first time. That leads to you discovering other things about the game and gets you to continue playing.

I want to play WOZ more and give it some more play time though.

It's funny... so often games on location (or at a show) just don't do it for me. Perhaps the environment is too loud...the game is poorly set-up or dirty... not sure what it is. But, pins in the home are typically a much more enjoyable experience. I know that's not always the case, but sure seems to be more true than not!

And I agree about your first statement, 100%

I agree

I think they're pretty good too, but I don't think their layout is among their strongest points. But they're still good, hence me defending 'bad layouts' and the possibility of code over layout. "
A bad layout is a bad game" and such... that's not all there is to it

I have the same problem. Some games I feel like they were just made for home use. I'd love to have a WoZ or TH to dig into for a few months at my house, but at the arcade, I stay away from them.

So often the games that grab you early are the ones that you tire of fast, and the ones you thought were a dud turn out to be keepers. Of course, there are the kind of games that have both, but that's a rare gem

yes, the left orbit is a shot - it's a classic Lawler-esque through-the-bumpers shot that is used to get the ball captured by the flying monkey. other shots include the crystal ball VUK, the wizard saucer, the witch's well, and the "collect" shot under the upper right flipper into the shooter lane. i'm not sure what constitutes a shot exactly, but i actually really like those "rainbow" targets, which require a high degree of flipper accuracy to aim for and hit on demand (which is required for certain modes). there really are a lot of challenging shots on that game once you dig into the rules and strategy and start working towards stacking modes to maximize score.

of course, fun is subjective, so your mileage may vary. but i honestly do think this is a game that becomes more fun the more you learn about it.

I'm more partial to W/B era, too. But I sure am grateful new pinball is still being made. and the new sterns are worth playing even if they don't quite reach the zenith of past eras.

For those writing off WOZ; you're really missing out. It's a classic pin where an average layout at best is made amazing with the code and insert design matrix. Here's my quick tip guide:

Rules: here's a quick 'basic' summary of rules going counterclockwise around the table.
Crystall Ball modes: spell B-A-L-L then hit spinner shot to start a 2-ball multiball that will effect the playfield in some fashion.
Haunted Modes: Spell haunted via pops then get the ball into the haunted lane by the pops to start a haunted mode. Note: once haunted is spelled you can kill the power to the pops by holding both flipper buttons - this can help nudge the ball into the haunted lane. Cool and fun feature!
Rescue mb: 2-part mode- Part 1; hit two targets in the pops to light capture dorothy then make an orbit shot for the monkey to capture her. Part 2; get ball on mini playfield and spell R-E-S-C-U-E, 3 ways of doing this - 1. hit targets and collect their respectful letter, 2. hit the 'search' loop shot - each shot adds the next letter in sequence. 3. bash the door to open it then put the ball in the hole and you'll be awarded the 2 next letters. Once you spell rescue (and have captured dorothy) you have 2 options, bash the door down and start rescue mb, or hit the search loop which will add a ball lock to the multiball in which you'll have to spell RESCUE again to start (or lock another ball) to start the multiball.
Wicked Witch: Hit the witch to start hurry up modes against the witch. Collect hurry ups by hitting her. Do enough witch hurry ups to play the fireball mode (real fun mode).
ECMB: Spell lion, scarecrow, tinman via the (3) rollover targets on the playfield. Each character represents a ball lock. Lock 3 for multiball.
Munchkin modes: spell R-A-I-N-B-O-W then loop the ball around the twister/house a bunch of times to start munchkin mode.
All these modes are unique and stackable! If you play all the modes mentioned above you'll get a chance to battle the wicked witch (BTWW) and melt the bitch!

That all said; it's things like making a shot to start a 2nd or 3rd multiball, or stacking modes, or playing the upper playfields while playing the bottom one that makes the layout so great. Making critical shots and knowing where to put the ball that make the shots satisfying. Overall, WOZ game is amazing - but the theme does blow...but the oz and Dorothy call outs are fantastic and so is the music.

I like them because they don't need repairs.

All pins need repaired.. heck ive had to fix nib sterns

Excellent write up. For me, it was the stacking that brought it together. Using ECMB to help towards Rescue jackpots. During some stacks, the colors were just amazing. Good stuff.

I have been collecting for over 16 years now and the fact is Billy Williams games are great but once you collect for as long as I have you get to be a great player so here is the problem the old school Billy Williams games are easy to complete doesn't matter how you set them up. So as you get better and collect longer you will gravitate towards the newer sterns which have much deeper rule sets and are much harder to complete.

People underestimate BLY/WMS/GTB EMs if they want to challenge their playing skills.
If a player finds later games too easy, travel backwards in time, not forwards.

An enthusiast is missing out on a complete era of over 25 years of pinball. If a collector sticks around long enough, they will go backwards and the "wonder years" start again. There is an incredible amount of creativity and challenge for those that decide to investigate games made before 1977.

There are also 10X cheaper, in equivocally comparable condition.
The only prerequisite is that an owner does not try to go after the "Top 10" titles of EMs because other people think they are cool.
There are more games than Neptune, Atlantis, Mermaid, Fireball, Slick Chick, Buckaroo, Central Park, Royal Flush, Drop a Card, and Grand Prix.
One of the weirder fun ones from my memory is Interflip's Dragon.
Older wood rails are even more fun, like Pitch and Bats from the 1950s and 60s.
Discovery is part of the adventure, not the opinions of others.
A person might find that they find a game that is unknown, or even unique.
Those that think early games play too slow, raise the casters, put the game on 2X4s, or add a TZ powerball.
If you want to be sadistic, do all three together.
Watch the game fly when highly buff waxed with carnauba and a power drill.
Ball times can be less than 15 seconds.

Ultra boredom makes for a good challenge

Hell ya! Just like bop 2.0! Lots of games would benefit from that. Rs would probably be alot more popular with having randomized start cities. Some day...

I would say the code being deeper on some modern Stern is what holds my interest. Rulesets on Stern games such as those found on LOTR, XMEN, Simpsons, and Star Trek are deep and multilayered. However, I find the rulesets on some other modern Sterns to be rather boring such as those on ACDC, Metallica and POTC which tend to be very bash heavy and require hitting the same shot over and over again (ex, hit the left ramp 15 times to start multiball, bash this target 50 times to get an extra ball, etc).

For me I prefer games that work an entire playfield in interesting ways with a quest based ruleset to be the most engaging. There are Bally Williams games that pull this off better then modern Stern's. In my opinion the rulesets for Star Trek: The Next Generation and The Shadow are more interesting then say ACDC's as I prefer the rule design in those games.

That made my day.

That's one of the charms of RS. Besides, you can select Miami at the start... and after that you're provided the challenge of selecting and successfully starting certain cities as you move acros the map. And when you finally hit Seattle, the pressure builds to get that Alien multiball going

Then it seems we agree!

In a few cases that may be true but overall stern games do not flow or combo as well as most top B/W games. They have the speed but not the flow in my opinion. GB has absolutely zero flow and the ball returns suck. TWD premium/LE is another layout disaster in my opinion were the ball flies of the ramps, shots do not setup other shots, etc. ST, IM, Tron, SM all have a good combination of both though. Compare those to WH2O, MM, SS, TOM, etc and which games are truly smoother shooting? If anything sterns designs seem to be going the opposite direction with recent releases.

Ya i dont mind that too much either. It makes it worth grinding through the first couple of modes worth it. I know a lot of people who would like it changed. Would still be cool though to see what some people could come up with for new rules to old games. Kind of like when people mod to create their own maps and rules in computer games.

Maybe what i should have said was to make modes stackable in rs

I understand some of this thought. But if you truly want to challenge yourself you should move a decade or 2 before DMD B/W games instead of moving up to new sterns. They will teach you nudging, ball control, and challenge you a lot more then a new stern ever will. I think pinside is starting to see more and more people will diverse collections for a reason. Each era of pinball has different exciting challenges to offer.

When was the last time a Trudeau game had flow? Same with TWD, if your ramps are loopable then they aren't going to set up other shots. That's how some games are? Not every game is about flow, and I for one am happy so play some games that aren't just about comboing shots all day. Almost every recent Stern I can think of is pretty flowy though...

TOM is probably the smoothest game in existence, but it's the same in general with B/W games. Some have flow, some don't. Sounds good to me

Judge Dredd?

Congo in 1995, other than the lower playfield ball juggling.
That was 20+ years ago for Trudeau.
Judge Dredd is a good choice, only the ball lock slows the game down.
If you are good player, CFTBL during MB, move your car, and right ramp super snack bar modes.
Victory in 1987 was not bad at all either, very fast, but most people here have never played one.