Stern's designs are great, for the most part. They have the same designers that Bally/Williams used, but they're operating with an extra 20 years of experience and reflection. When these guys design today, they're so much more keyed into what has worked for them in the past and what they need to avoid. Stern's designs are great.

The code today blows away the code from the past. Everything is just much more suited to home play. Yeah, there are some issues with the time it takes to get these games code complete, but Lyman and Dwight are doing fantastic work for the most part. Code today is much better than in past eras.

There's a fascination with Stern's new games because they're currently making great games. Issues I have with the company aside, they are putting out great games.

Complaints of quality are quite valid, however.

I used to own 2 Sterns and 2 B/W's. While I really enjoyed JD and The Getaway, I was always worried about what I was going to have to fix next, just a mater of time until something was gonna break. Yep, 20 years older probably has a lot to do with it. So that was part of the reason I switched to newer Sterns because they are newer, they just play, and play with great depth and fun. It's a choose your own adventure pinball that has plenty of different paths and all are fun.

... and half the budget and schedule that B/W gave them ...

Yep. Or ACDC, or Tron, or The Walking Dead, or Ghostbusters, or Game of Thrones. Sterns are not all long-playing. I think someone just needs a bit more exposure.

Sterns appeal to me on many levels.

Considering the better 90s pins are commanding $3000-$6000, and considering the cost of parts and restoration, $4995 for a NIB Stern shipped to my door is very appealing.

I prefer playing over dealing with repairs and breakdowns.

I prefer calling my distributor, or picking up a lightly used Stern locally, than having to wait and scower and drive great distances in hopes of finding the title I want in good condition for a fair price. The "fair price" part is becoming increasingly difficult.

I like newer, brighter, faster, better sound quality, and more depth.

I find many of the new Sterns to be more exciting and more adrenaline pumping than the 90s pins.

I find Sterns to be highly reliable and generally easy to service.

I like that Stern is still in business and lifetime free tech support is a phone call away. And the warranty can come in handy.

New Sterns earn better.

There's more reasons, but that's enough for now.

And for what it's worth I do enjoy older pins and have a deep appreciation for them.

In some cases Stern has moved pinball forward mostly when third party innovation has forced their hand such as their gradual uptake of LED's.

In other cases they have actually gone backwards in terms of quality control for playfield clearcoats, cabinet decals and general care about the end product and have struggled to meet the expectations of their primary sales demographic (expectations which aren't all that unreasonable given the rapid increase in pricing across the board on their products).

In most cases overall the product hasn't really changed all that much since 1998. Some might see that as a positive for reasons of sentimentality, but I see that as being detrimental to the long term survivability of the hobby itself especially in terms of attracting the next generation of players.

I also would like to see pinball move forward with the main manufacturer being an innovator, rather than a follower of other smaller/boutique manufacturers.

As alluded to in another thread I don't really have the inclination to spend $12,000 plus on a new full featured machine, when I can spend a third of that on a machine from the 1990's, budget $3,000-$4,000 shopping it out with every mod available and bringing it back to brand new and still be out in front financially whilst having a machine that is virtually indistinguishable on outward appearances from a new Stern.

I have a handful of newish Sterns in my collection (Tron, ACDC, Avengers) and whilst they are fun to play for me, in a long lineup when people new to the hobby play them they have no idea that the machine they are playing is less than 5 years old whilst the one next to it is close to 20. That to me is a worrying observation in terms of technological advancement of the product.

The only reason Stern currently has a jump start in game design improvements at all is that coding is no longer a bottleneck.
That is an advantage of technology.
Many times BLY/WMS maxed out the EPROMs memory capacity.
You can ask any primary code designer such as Dwight Sullivan, Lyman Sheats, Jr., or Keith Johnson today and they will all say the same thing.
Even in the early 2000s this was a problem with games such as TSPP, and they really squeezed as much as they could into the game.
RoadShow is an excellent example from the 1990s.
There were more features planned, tested, and programmed, but they could not be implemented properly and had to be cut for the final game code.
I know this because I own the P-2 EPROMs from a sample game that was converted from a prototype.
I could see the differences.
There was almost as much in the game as the modes from TH.
I am still looking for the chips in my inventory, so they can be extracted.

I have yet to see anything in a Stern game that is revolutionary regarding design since 2001.
Every single device used in pinball design has been recycled since 1932 in one variation or another.
They are not "technologically advanced" because Stern's policy direction starting from the beginning was to make mechanisms "simpler" therefore making them easier to manufacturer and maintenance.
I am not dismissing any game as "fun", as a good design is a tested past design that worked.
Stern was not going to go out on a limb in the past 5 years as things moved forward.
Hell, they recycled their own parts for games, and openly admitted this repeated to simplify game design for manufacturing costs.
Not that this was passed onto the consumer/operator in any shape or form.

The couch lock for example in TSPP, is a variation of BK2K or even the original BK.
The three bank target assembly for SM has been used at least a dozen times, even before AFM.
The magna-slings on GB is TAF "Feel the Power" repeated with one less magnet.
People that toute Stern games as "overwhelmingly original" are new enthusiasts that have not had the opportunity to study pinball game history.
I applaud all game designs, but it really takes a good designer to come up with some new at this point.

I have no doubts it will eventually happen, maybe Stern SW, but not Aerosmith.
It just has not occurred yet with Stern.
BM66 is not a glowing example, it is retro retheme.
JJP actually took several steps forward in their games, however, especially with DI (using features in WMS 'Wizard Blocks' with Lawlor but never produced) and even Woz with the LCD interaction.
They should take some points from JJP, even if just for implementation of creativity.

Reliability of comparing BLY/WMS to Stern games is questionable. SPIKE has potential but continues to have teething problems on routes. WhiteStar and SAM improved with voltages, but still suffered from problems such as lack of fuse protection to protect against short circuits and overloads. IDC connectors also still burned. Capcom and AGC did a better job in those areas. Updating code capability on Stern machines is superior, especially now.

newer sterns (from potc to current compare to b/w games):

*more options in software settings menu
*ease to update and manipulate code
*don't have reset issues and boards are built way better.

the earlier stern flippers (harley up to elvis had weak, soggy flipper syndrome. that was changed with nascar and changed again with spiderman.
from spiderman to current sterns, the flippers are strong and have the same feel as williams wpc games.
*dont have to worry about backbox gi bulbs or flashers going out.
*connectors dont burn (esp GI)
*more reliable on location.

GoT Pro is a super fun game, as is Met Pro and TWD Pro.

The Prem/LE versions are good as well, but don't discount the Pro's. Great fun for a good price. No other company has anything close to this price point.

Haha.

download (resized).jpg

Speed........Games are faster
Sound........Sound and music effects are exceptional
New...........Who doesn't like the idea of new
Cool.....The themes are modern or at least have retro relevance to the pinball consumer.

Get over the fact that there is less 'toy interaction' with the ball.
Get over the fact that it is build differently.
Flipperfeel is indeed a little different.. play them and get used to it.

Then you'll start to like those games a lot

While I agree, there are reasons for it. When you take theme and code away, almost all pinball is exactly the same. Shots from the flippers go up the playfield and return in a controlled or uncontrolled manner. That's the entire hobby in a nutshell. The only difference between games comes down to art, theme (which the callouts are based on), and rules (why are you shooting that shot right now).

What Stern has done well over the years has been integration of those few things. I hate to use an older example, but the end of Two Towers Multiball on LOTR. The one where Gimly yells "Superjackpot, ho ho ho ho". OMG, I've hit that same shot at least 20 times during a particular game, but Gandalf just said "at first light on the fifth day..." and the light is ON!!! Yet it is the same shot that starts modes, and is involved throughout the game.

And they keep doing it. Tron does it like crazy, IM does it like crazy. Metallica, Walking Dead, Take 6 or 7 shots, and make them amazingly fun. Not every game... I'm not a fan of Ghostbusters. But there are enough great ones. The fascination with new Stern games is with the promise that it might be one of their great games. I've had Tron for almost 5 years, and played at least 15 games on it yesterday, just because it's still fun. I love my Williams games too, but the Stern games keep me coming back for more.

Besides all of the other reasons, many of us have played 90s games enough to want something new. This is a pinball forum not a vintage pinball forum.... Right?

To me the fascination with new becomes more and more obvious over time. The majority of collectors have no idea on how to maintain a game, old games need full tear downs and rebuilds to play like new, so the conclusion being that most older games play like crap.

Any title which plays like crap is not much fun.

My evidence of this it to got play a Stern which is dirty and poorly maintained and they are no much fun either.

I think one of the short comings of modern Stern titles is that their easy to learn nature (basically giving novice players something to bash to make lights and sound effects go crazy) and crazy depth (for your hardcore players) doesn't leave a whole lot of middle ground for players that want to be challenged without spending hours figuring out key parts of a rule set. When I read someone saying "super bored with ACDC," my first thought is: how is that possible? I say that only because the depth and challenge of that game leads to a total rush in my little world. I love it. But, I also find that if I don't play it for a month or so, I start to forget the nuances of rules and I can easily start to fall back into novice play tactics that make the game kind of stale. It's a middle of the road realm that isn't a Stern game's strong suit. Same thing goes for the walking dead. For me, the walking dead has that "it factor"... great theme, awesome immersion, great sound, great light show... ridiculously fun rules. But, much like ACDC, you really have to crank up the brain to make the game sing.

BW games really have that great balance where advanced objectives aren't that hard to remember. I love rules of a game like TAF... or Jackbot... complex enough to keep you on your toes, but not to a professorial level. Sometimes you don't want to think while playing!

And then there's games like Taxi or Black Hole that are just flat-out fun, without much rule depth at all. Equally awesome.

In a weird way most modern Stern games are incredibly approachable for casual players...while being equally unapproachable for casual players. Ultimately, that makes them an interesting beast in the home environment. I say "most" because there are games like Iron Man that are very approachable all the way around.

People seem to think deeper is better even when the game gets so deep that they will never see the wizard

I think it's the best version of the game (the art is terrible on all versions).

Also regarding cabinet protectors, I don't think that's a revolutionary design feature. It was a necessity because they went from painting cabs to using decals. In my opinion painted cabs are better. I'm not sure anyone else agrees.

Innovation in pinball is like the innovation that occurred with NASCAR racing cars. The early 1970s saw many uniquely designed cars, the SuperBird the most unique. Anyone watching could see the difference of the manufacturers just by looking at the bodies of the cars.

Fast forward...the desire to get every ounce of performance eventually led to only one body type that maximizes aerodynamic efficiency. Now, every NASCAR racing car has the exact same body but with different graphics applied as stickers. Have you ever seen a two-door Toyota Camry? Lol

To relate this analogy to pinball, there are only so many ways to design a pinball machine and most features have been done in some form or fashion somewhere in the history of pinball. To TheBlackKnight's point above.

At some point, every conceivable way of building a pinball game that is confined in its own cabinet's 4 walls will be reached. Outside of what Stern, JJP, or third party vendors have done to improve existing concepts, I'm not sure there is much "innovation" left from a physical pinball deck/playfield perspective. What it will come down to is the right combination of features, with the right rule set, tied to the theme that is appealing and makes future games a success.

There is no doubt noticiable differences between the feel of flippers and control with regard to B/W and Sterns. I don't think one is better than the other. They are just different. It's like saying a clear coated PF is better than a non clear coated one... They are just different. One is not "better" than the other.

I don't really have a preference regarding flippers, among the different manufacturers. As a player, I am aware of the subtle differences among manufacturers and adjust my play accordingly to compensate. It's similar to the way MOST mid 90's B/W machines have very low hold flipper height, making a ball trap more difficult. It's not better or worse, just different. As long as you are aware of it, you shouldn't let it detract from the experience you have with the game.

Here's the different types/generations of flippers where I have noticed major flipper differences regarding response time, strength, and travel(only major US manufacturers)... I know I left some out:

Bally EM flippers small (low tap)
Bally EM flippers small (high tap)
Bally EM flippers large (low tap)
Bally EM flippers large (high tap)
Williams EM flippers large (high tap)
Williams EM flippers small (low tap)
Williams EM flippers small (high tap)
Williams EM flippers large (low tap)
Gottlieb EM flippers large (high tap)
Gottlieb EM flippers small (low tap)
Gottlieb EM flippers small (high tap)
Gottlieb EM flippers large (low tap)
Bally (77-eraly 80's)
Bally Linear (early1980s-1989)
Stern (77-84)
Williams (early) (77-79)
Williams (79-sys 9)
Williams (sys9-WPC)
Gottlieb (EM era->sys80)
SS Gottlieb (sys3->end)
SS B/W (lightning length)
SS B/W WPC- pre fliptronic
SS B/W fliptronic
SS B/W post-fliptronic til end of B/W
DE pre-Robocop
SS DE Robocop-> end of SEGA
SS Stern ->similar feel to most all but they eventually add voltage pulse power settings, allowing the op/owner to change Sol. power

So, these differences had to do with SO MANY factors... voltage, travel, pawl design, EOS design, flipper size, flipper length, and the major variations of non solid state machine controlled flippers vs. TRUE SS flipper design, where the machine actually determines pulse length and EOS detection. On top of THOSE factors, now you have 100 different types of flipper rubber that can dramatically effect how the game plays as well. The combination of this, along with above requires the pinball player to adjust their sensibilities if they want to be a solid player, across all possible designs and platforms.

I am fascinated by all pinball, new and old

Sounds like a mental block to me. Do you strictly go into a car dealership looking to get bent over for the Limited/Platinum Edition? Many Pros are awesome and don't feel stripped at all. You are missing out.

deep and fun are different. A deep code on a game that is not fun to shoot is still not good. Shallower code on a great PF is amazing (sys 11's in particular).

bug free and complete code are very different things. B/W generally sent games out complete (CC, NGG being notable exceptions) then fixed bugs or tweaked rules. Stern sends game out incomplete.

But isn't that the magic? I'm realistic. I know I will never enter Valinor... and yet I know everything I need to know to get there. And I can physically do everything needed... just not in the same game. I've done everything but finish ROTK. I want that wizard mode to be there, even though I can't get there. Heck, I once took a vacation from work to try to get to Portal on Tron. I didn't make it then, but I did a few months later. I want wizard modes to be able to have a quest. I want sub-wizard modes along the way (Sea of Simulation, Destroy the Ring, Do or Die hurry-up, Hand of the King) to give me a challenge I can get to.

Yep i like the simple midrange fun ..... got tired of acdc bc its complexity i guess plus the theme did nothing for me. I like met and twd bc of the rules and theme on twd but i still dont have the fun factor that i and others get from afm and mb. Theme is huge as is cool toys and game personality which the sterns lack imo. I like jjp pins do to the whole package plus they have deep rules which why i ordered dialed in right away.

Metallica Pro comes to mind. Significantly cheaper than a premium and still TONS of fun.

that's a false dilemma. it's not one or the other. a new Stern may or may not have a fast and fun playfield, but there's no way a System11 game can have code half as deep as even early, incomplete modern Sterns.

The pro versions are $5K NIB and offer just as good as gaming experience as the premiums or LE's. I have and never will spend more than $5K on a machine and I think my collection is fun as shit, no regrets. If I want to change it up later for a different pro, I can sell one and add a little money to do so. Do you really have to have the premium version?

1. Fun games - ST, MET, TRON, ACDC, TWD, IM, GB, SM, LOTR, etc.. are great games.

2. Deep code - Stern has pushed code further than ever as it has to make games to keep pins in homes interesting/challenging

3. Color changing LEDs - this is big for me and adds a lot to the experience

4. The sound of pins now are awesome out of the box

Be prepared as new sterns will be over 5 k ..... probably 5300-5500 but you wont have to buy color dmd anymore ...

Complete games up until the mid 90's. Once you get to wpc95 era they became less and less complete. B/W was also bad about fixing bugs which is why there are a number of B/W titles that you have to debate what version of code or if it should be used in a tournament.

"What is the fascination with the new Stern Games?"

Exactly the same fascination with every other manufacturer?

People are fascinated by pinball.

Apparently quite a few.

Enough to have clubs, shows (where most games are not Sterns), competitions, home game rooms full, etc. etc.

The 90s B/W games were growing old and formulaic: the Rule of Threes. Hit every shot three times to start X
, Y or Z.

And Stern responded with Austin Powers...a FOUR shot formula! Brilliant!

There are a lot of pros people prefer over the premiums and LEs even. Just off the top of my head I know I've seen dozens of discussions discussing the merits of MET and GOT pros over the premiums. Fun games can be had below $8000.

Nice to meet you too

what dilemma? good code and a good field is great. good code and a bad field sucks. bad code and a good field is not good, bad code and a bad field is vacation america. sys11s had good code, not deep but good, and great layouts for the most part. Most sterns have average layouts and crap code for a year, then have deep code but still have an uninspired layout. I'd take a sys11 over a new stern any day. A year plus old stern vs a sys 11 would depend on titles involved. tron and metallica are a lot of fun (after a year of post release development). but I'd play pinbot or high speed over most of the others all day long.

absolutely, but the layouts tended to be very good, which leaves those games very playable with lesser code.

Most issues with B/W code in tournaments are due to unbalanced scoring issues, not actual gameplay bugs. The fact the scoring isn't tourney friendly is not really a bug. Yes there are actually tourney breaking bugs in some games too. but the games were still generally complete. They didn't ship games (usually) with modes missing with the intent to add them later as stern does. Sterns actual design and delivery philosophy is ship it incomplete, missing modes and meaningless inserts on purpose then deal with it later. Why do you think there are so many blank inserts on a stern? they don't put text on them since they don't know what they will have it do when they get around to finishing the code.

I figured this would be much simpler than this discussion suggests. They are fun and they are cheaper than new condition B/W titles people are looking at. They're a totally viable option before even debating all the other positives & negatives.

People like new stuff, it's not exactly rocket science.

There's a reason why Goldfinger isn't the #1 movie year after year, or why the nation no longer gathers in front of its TV sets every Friday night by the millions to catch Dallas.

It is all subjective as it is personal preference on what people like. To me Stern is making great fun exciting games and quite a few others agree. This does not mean any past games by any manufacturer are less fun.

Some may find it fascinating that I don't find any of them fascinating enough to have a one in my 30+ game collection. Unless you consider Ripley's new.

I've had a few, but they don't stay very long. Glad others want them though.

Even Mr. Spock would have trouble finding this topic or thread fascinating.

download (resized).jpg

Mind control of players from brainwashing due to subliminal messages in the audio tracks of Stern games.
(Just a guess...)

And yet, you're compelled to comment on it.

The more I play new Sterns, the more I find myself loving older games.

The more I play The Hobbit, the more I look forward to Dialed In.

and then they introduced Avengers...a TWENTY shot formula!

I do agree with you but there are goals in older games that are very hard to complete because of the difficulty of the game. I think that is a different kind of depth, although I would argue it is comparable to Sterns' depth. It's a goal that always seems within reach but hardly ever gets achieved. BSD's three multiball stack comes to mind as an example. I'm not sure how many times I've collected all of the stars in Stern's Stars. Collecting all of the passengers in Taxi is something I always have trouble with. There are others. The game's short gameplay length facilitates another press of the start button so you can try one more time to achieve that elusive goal. Some Sterns' and a majority of 90s B/W have a goal at the end but instead of a quick try to get there it requires a long journey which if failed towards the end is very draining to the spirit.

I kind of prefer lateral depth of a game. Many ways to score, many ways to get to the wizard or end goal, shorter play times. A few Sterns seem to take my preferred approach, MET (if set up properly), TWD, IM.

Hey! I like the layout of VA. Code is nonexistent but there's nothing wrong with the layout.

As long as I've got BSD sitting next to my sample Dirty Harry, it's going to take a lot to get me fascinated with any of the newer games.