Anyway, PBH, I've stolen your graph and added/tweaked some games... Like I say, MM has very few modes but is highly strategic... and I've not heard anything to say that WH2O is less strategic than BSD, so I've re-located these two...

Also, I'd say that AFM is more a case of stratgey that it being high in the No of modes... no?

All in the interetst of good fun... this graph will always be open to interpretation...

PBS_depth-o-meter.JPG

Is Roadshow really that deep/long of a game? I have never owned it but I find it hard to believe that it takes longer to get through all modes than RFM. I do not know if any game short of TSPP has as many modes as RFM. RFM has probably at least 6+ different multiball modes alone.

I don't see as many options as you all see in Whitewater. There are some strategic things you can do but whitewater to me, is all about grinding away at the the lit arrows and completing the inlane letters -- that's like 90% of the game and its really repetitive.

Yes, it is.

I'm not familiar enough with RFM to make any comparisons to that though.

I've been following this thread for some time now and have been fairly fascinated with it. I keep wanting to contribute but never have enough time to sit down and write out all my thoughts. This will be somewhat stream-of-conciousness, so bear with me.

Before I get too involved, just let me state that I don't think WH2O has much strategy at all in that there's only ONE strategy... Get 5x playfield with multiball. If you set it up right and get maximum 5x time, you'll get maybe 6 5x jackpots, which is a total of 15x extra "x" of jackpot value, for what I'm guessing to be an average value of around 300M (at 20M jackpots). If you try and figure what else you can 5x (hazards/camera craze, rafts, Wet Willies (almost impossible), or bigfoot), nothing else is really going to come close to multiball. Maybe bigfoot. Probably not getting more then 5 shots, though, which is 200M. So this just becomes a matter of execution, not strategy.

Similarly, BSD only has one strategy that makes any sense: triple multiball and (double) castle jackpots. Even trifling with bats and rats isn't worth the worry compared to a 480M+ castle jackpot. So again, that is more down to execution that strategy.

On RGP quite awhile ago, I opined that there were 3 elements to what makes games good/fun. Breadth, depth, and (lack of) work. Breadth meaning the number of things that were immediately available to people, depth meaning how many things were "further down the road," and work meaning how much of the game is simply keep making shots for no reason other than the programmer was too lazy to figure out how to make it more interesting (IMNSHO a distinct flaw with most recent Stern games). Breadth and depth generally increase fun, and work takes it away. So, you could come up with a rough "fun" equation of approximately: fun = breadth * depth / work.

I've mulled it over for some time, usually any time I see a "depth" conversation come up, and one thing is clear: 3 scales are definitely not enough. Or if they are, they need to be broken down further.

PinballHelp (I believe it was) was the closest with his river analogy. Most people these days seem to equate depth with "how far until the end of the game," but in the modern parlance of game development, that's not quite the right definition to apply to depth. It's more like distance. How long can the game keep throwing new stuff at you? Breadth is still there, how much is available right off the bat, or to put it another way, how many different things are there to attack in the game at once? Complexity (or interoperability) is the factor most often missing (and the thing that's closest to the modern definition of gameplay depth). This is where the magic comes in, of how things stack with each other or combine in ways to make things really interesting. I would call "depth" some combination of distance and complexity, personally, but I don't know that I can call depth simply how far out the game is or how interoperable the game is.

Let's look at some examples (including my takes on a couple already presented):

STTNG: OK breadth (modes, NZ awards, warp awards, 1 multiball, right ramp awards), below average distance (only 7 modes til Final Frontier, and only 8 total shots to warp 9), medium complexity (modes increasing FF a big plus, but otherwise almost no other stacking possible a big minus), and not much work at all (that is good).

TZ: Great breadth (door modes/awards, camera awards, multiball, gumball, dead ends, hitchhikers, robots, spiral awards), good distance (14 doors, 8 cameras, BTP & EB off spirals. LOOOONG way away for super robots (see also: work)), great complexity (almost anything works with anything), generally low work (getting super robots is a chore, but certainly not necessary; LITZ can be as much of a chore as you make it, personally I prefer to play the game than just go for LITZ).

WH2O: Decent breadth (multiball, hazards/rafts, whirlpool, bigfoot, lost mine), ok distance (6x and WW is a ways away, 6 boulders), very low complexity (5x only stacks with a couple things, and only if you start it first, almost nothing else stacks with anything else), above average work (RIVER 6x and WW is just a lot of shots to make).

CFTBL: Below average breadth (multiball, right ramp awards, right shot awards, MYC), OK distance (multiball has very good distance, right ramp has high distance/work), non-existent complexity (nothing works with anything), medium work (to get super scoring, minimum 12 ramp shots away, often severely higher).

IJ4: Poor breadth (4 multiballs, 2x scoring), high distance (4 of each type of multiball), very low complexity (2x + what), EXTREME work (that's all this game is).

Anyway those are some thoughts off the top of my head that I hope gives you a little more to think about. Great thread for sure.

Excellent post Keefer. I totally agree. It's that "work" factor that detracts from the value of the endgame if it begins to be repetitive.

For this reason, I've never been a fan of many games where you have to beat away at a single target a bunch of times to make something work. And the more obvious it is that you're playing whack-a-mole in the same spot, even if it takes a long time, doesn't IMO make the game "deep" more than it is tedious. I guess this is unavoidable in pinball, but in some games it's more obvious than others.

With more discussion I would agree BSD's position probably needs to change, as well as some others. I like us coming to a consensus on it.

Updated...

depth.jpg

I still think the jury is out on a few machines.. it's fun comparing them to see how we should move things around.. nothing's written in stone

I still can't imagine RS is deeper than RFM.. RFM has so many modes... maybe we can do a comparison?

Hmm...

I would have left WH2O where it was. A lot must be accomplished, but it is linear. There is one main strategy to maximize points. That seems to be it. I think that including only the boulder garden features as "modes" is too limiting. The river classes and rafts seems like modes as well to me, one increasing bonus, the other increasing jackpots. One could argue that there are four modes to complete VJ : river class, rafts, boulder garden and multiball.

I would have moved MM but lower on the Y access not the X access. Much, much more to do than the amount of strategy needed to do it. Little interaction other than multiballs to assist defeating the castles and avoiding Merlin saucer until the individual madness items are collected, the latter being very linear.

Also, since TSPP is the standard, maybe it should be the 10,10 and everything approaches it to lesser degree.

CFTBL has a very definite strategy, but it is very hard to get to the point to execute it fully. The combo shot, parking lot and move your car shot and P-A-I-D all get the ball into the bumpers which build the available jackpot. Each of those features contribute to the final strategy. Like WH2O, big scores depend on building the jackpot and building the multiplier but keeping a two ball multiball alive allowing for left ramp/bowl shots to build the multiplier, parking lot shots to continue to build the jackpot while hitting three successful snackbar shots (one is a challenge). the left ramp and parking lot shots allow for a ball to get out of the way to concentrate on the snackbar shot. Strategy, yes - build jackpot, build multiplier, collect three snackbar shots, countdown the bumpers to allow for superjackpot and then another snackbar shot. One multiball restart after that the game gives no quarter.

Collecting FILM gives the chance to find the Creature which is the payoff for the causal player, and the better player can get into the billion range with the above strategy. Sorry if I am rambling. A bit tired now.

Now that I think about it, this is a game where Y greatly exceeds X. Some features can build good scores. Maxed two way combos score 16 M, MYC maxed is about 75 M, unlimited scoring on the left ramp collected on slide has 165 M potential, big points on right ramp offers about 100 M on five shots. You could ignore the whole FILM Creature Jackpot/Superjackpot aspect of the game and close to 500 M scores. Accomplish superjackpot properly setup and you are well over 1 B.

Strategy is paramount on Creature. I might reconsider now that I have worked through this and rate it maybe 3.5, 7.

On a game with a properly leveled bowl, provided circumstance go your way, you can max multiplier on just a few shots. I have maxed the multiplier on my game on as little two shots with both balls in the bowl with good timing on the nudging.

Dan

It isn't deep, no... that's why it's at the bottom of the 'deep' axis. It is long, yes... you have to get all the way across the states 3 times, it takes absolutely ages to do it... This 'width' calculation is very easy to quantify, you simply count the number of things there are to do... including multiballs, things to complete, wizard modes. How these things interact to form a strategy is the depth. Roadshow has very low depth, the only significant depth I can see is how you have to wait 'till the unlit city is flashing before you hit the start city scoop on the 2nd and third times across the states.

That's why I wrote them down, so you can see them... all you have to do is read the words You still have WH2O with less strategy than BSD, but there is more. Have a look back at what was written and then you'll see the differences

Correct, it's pretty much all there is... strategy... you have more modes than strategy where you have it... I don't see that many modes in WH2O...

Why have you still got MM to have lots of modes? How many modes does it have? (it's a while since I played this one...).

Not exactly... it is probably the main one, yes... but the strategy axis, shouldn't be simply a count of strategies, but more a measure of them... this one strategy in WH2O is a very strong one that twists the game along a very winding road... How you change the boulder award to suite where you are in the game, how to get balls out of lock, do you go another raft up before starting multiball... there's also the VJ strategy as I described...

The hazards when you get to Wet Willies are 50mil each with 5x lit, if you get just 6 of these in the timer, you also get 300mil...

VJ is 200mil, again, a ballanced score...

I see this as width... simply the number of things to do... depth, to me, is how these things interact with each other...

That was me

Yes, Riverclass is a bonus multiplier, I would'n count this as a mode in any game... it's part of the VJ strategy yes... another example of strategy beating modes here

I think you're talking about width here... there is some axis confusion I believe... I see the bottom (x) axis as width (number of things to do), and the (y) as depth (how things interact).

Regarding WH2O, it may have more options than BSD, but I'd say strategy isn't the key thing in WH2O.. whereas in BSD that's basically the main objective. So when I gauge a game based on how strategic it is, it isn't just based on x modes, but how much of the game play centers around strategy. In WH2O, strategy is more of an afterthought. The main point of WH2O IMO is grinding away at the levels and classes. It sounds to me like Roadshow is like that as well? So you would say it takes more time to get to the endgame in RS than in WH2O? Or simply more repetition?

Well the effective payoff is only 240M in that case... That's what I was using in the multiball example: an extra 4x + an extra 3x + and extra 2x and probably 3 extra 2xs after that (I'm assuming you make the 3 shots for a triple and 3 more jackpots after that), that's where I got the 15x average of 20M. Obviously the higher your rafts are, the more sense this strategy makes.

I think a better way to more accurately depict a games depth using your chart is to have sub categories with a five star rating. It would look something like this:

Y-Axis
1. Strategy
2. Stacking
3. Variety of scoring.

X-axis
1. Ball time (higher score longer ball time)
2. Goals
3. Modes & wizard modes

Rate each sub category from 0-5; with 0 being lowest and 5 highest. Then use this formula for each axis of the chart - (Y/3)*2 with Y being your total score of the Y axis. Repeat for X axis. So of the games I own, my honest ratings would look something like this:

FGY: Y=7.3 : X=8

Y (11/3)*2= 7.3
1. Strategy: 4
2. Stacking: 3
3. Variety of scoring: 4

X (12/3)*2= 8
1. Ball time: 2.5
2. Goals: 4
3. Modes & wizard modes: 4.5

TFLE: Y=4.6 : X=7.6

1. Strategy: 2
2. Stacking: 2
3. Variety of scoring: 3

1. Ball time: 4
2. Goals: 2.5
3. Modes & wizard modes: 5

BBH: Y=4.3 : X=1

1. Strategy: 1
2. Stacking: 3
3. Variety of scoring: 2.5

1. Ball time: 1
2. Goals: 2
3. Modes & wizard modes: 0

LoTR: Y=10 : X=10

1. Strategy: 5
2. Stacking: 5
3. Variety of scoring: 5

1. Ball time: 5
2. Goals: 5
3. Modes & wizard modes: 5

Can we get TAF put on the above chart.

It is the game I feel most comfortable with as a foundation point for me to better understand all other games in your rating scheme.

thanks

I think this may be the "deepest" pinball thread that has ever been... you guys just might figure out the meaning of life if you keep it up... I think it has something to do with the process of the universe becoming aware of itself... but what do I know...

There's a few DE pins that are worthy on this chart: JP, LAH, and TFTC.

You're missing Tommy and GnR. Btw, I'm not sure if 'ball time' is a good measure, that would seem to be a negative. I think I'd just leave that attribute off.

Forgot those two and should be included, but when I think deep DE pins, I think JP and LAH first IMHO.

42

I'd say strategy is pretty much the ONLY thing in WH2O Grinding away and getting to VJ is like swimming straight across the river and not looking down... What I do when I play WH2O is dive stright down and go into the caves and start rooting out those keys to unlock the big points...

Exactly, strategy (and what I call depth) certainly isin't based on 'x modes', this has been my point all along... strategy is how this 'what you do' in a game is intertwined with outher 'what you do's'... which is why WH2O scores high here, because almost all the 'what you do's' are linked together and a deceptively intricate way to achieve the main aim: to score big points. It's simple but at the same time genius, and I was adicted to this game for months trying to crack and polish the strategy to achieve the ultimate reward: 5x VJ... when I finally did it, I was gutted to find that 5x playfield doesn't actually apply to VJ... but that's beside the point, the benefit of getting 5x VJ still exists because straight after this you start multiball with 5x pf running, and since you've been to or passed Wet Willies, then the jackopts (now 5x) will be very big!

Roadshow is, in my mind, the opposite of WH2O, LOTS of modes to plough through, and little to no intertwining of them with anything else...

Yes, definitely! Typically a game on Roadshow could last me over an hour... the max time I'd get on WH2O is around 20mins... I don't think I ever got to the very end of Roadshow... like I say, you have to travel across the states 3 times to get a new west coast city each time, only when you have ALL cities lit are you at the 'end' od the game (there's a mini wizard mode on completion of each west coast city, and the ultimate one when you get all cities on the map...).

Fair enough... although I'd say to make 6 off 5x jackpot shots is really pusing it to be honest... whenever I've started 5x pf at the start of multiball, if I do get the first 3 balls up insanity falls, I typically get another 1 or 2 up there before the 5x timer runs out...

It's struck me that this topic is questioning what a 'deep' game is, and the chart which has been made by PBH doesn't have deep on any axis... bearing in mind that's what we're trying to define, I think it would be good to have it there

I'd say deep is the vertical (y) axis, but when you mentioned (PBH) my putting RS as a deep game, I take it in your mind that deep is on the horizontal (x) axis... which is quite amusing that we seem to be confused at where deep is on this chart when it's the core of what we're talking about... so, Mr PBH, seeing as you are the creator of this fine tool... can you tell us where 'depth' is on your chart?

The meaning of life, love and everything is easy it is = 42

Updated chart. ; )

depth-meter-doh.jpg

LOL! You beat me to it ...

I was WAYYY off. I though it was 37.

Tommy is definitely as deep as Jurassic Park, and has more strategy as it's more balanced scoring wise. I owned both.

Tron on your chart looks to be a shallow game. I thought it had 8 different modes +MB's?

In many cases I put things where people suggested. Obviously, to do the chart justice, we'd have to get more specific and do some game-by-game comparisons to establish baseline positions.

This would be nice. Nailing down the term "is a game deep". "Lets go to the chart and see"..... So what would make a deep thread LOL. JK

Digging the new chart, that's the spirit

It would be great to quantify the different attributes to achieve an 'opinion free' location for each game on the map... I'll propose an equation to determine depth, which would take into account the relevant components...

Just one 'final' question... where is 'depth' on your chart?

'Eskaybee's method', as I'm sure it will go down in the history books (it has a certain ring to it!) is a great first stab at quantifying stuff, but I'd say it's still open to interpretation in how you 'rate' each element... and to be honest, I don't think ball time should have a play in it... you can have a game with almost nothing to do but which has long ball times... and games with loads to do but short ball times... We need a way to remove judgement and replace with fact to get a repeatable and fixed location for each game... I propose the x axis to be a simple count of things to do... this is a sum total of modes, multiballs, wizard modes, lights/components to get lit/complete in order to get closer to the end of game (I say this this way so that games like MM which are focussed on getting to the end game as apposed to doing modes so that this game also has a good 'count' on this axis as they deserve).

The 'y' axis (strategy) is far more difficult to quantify, and should be a measure of how all the stuff you do interects to achieve big points. Something like: (Number of things that interact)^2 added to (other groups of things that interact)^2... I need more coffee

Recogniser mode is not a mode dude, hit recogniser target (that big unavoidabke thing that looks like 3 targets but is just one right in the middle of the playfield) 3 times to complete. Also, number of modes is not a measure of depth, it's a measure of width... Depth (I think, but this has still not been clarified on this chart) is how stuff interacts, and the benefit (points wise) of these interactions... if they merely interact but don't have a points benefit, then there's not drive to make them interact, so the need to apply any stratgy is taken away... which to me also takes away the strategy itself... Tron is a bit like this... Also, you say '8 modes + MB's, but the MB's are some of the modes... so it's not 8 plus MB's, it's more like 7 including MB's... and this is just width...

Hmm this thread is a year old. I think it's time to bring it up again. We are waiting for new code on a few games, how would you guys put new games like Met, AC/DC, ST, Avengers, X-Men or WOZ in these charts up there?
fun = breadth * depth / work
What could become of Met when they put more depth into it?^^

I'm amazed that I've never come across this thread until now. Keefer's post was really interesting, as was all of the subsequent discussion. I don't know much about some of the newer games that you mentioned, but I do know AC/DC. In terms of strategy, stacking, and variety of scoring, I think it easily matches TSPP. Especially in terms of strategy.

AC/DC requires planning a few shots ahead in a way that is far more interesting than any other game I've played. Bowen's tutorial captures that pretty well.

Example: You have Album Multiball lit.. Because you know you're going to be going after targets, it might be wise to change the song before starting both. So you don't want to start multiball just yet. You hit a few shots to light the jukebox, and in the process might put yourself close to lighting another multiball. If it only takes a few more shots to stack it, do it! You light the jukebox and start one of songs focused on drop targets. Finally, you can start the multiball. During the multiball, you might try to throw in some bell hits to get 2x or 3x scoring. All the while, you've got to make sure you're trying to spell FIRE to light the cannon and go for the song jackpot... unless of course you're about to collect the album with the current song, in which case you want to make sure to collect that before collecting it with the cannon. That way, the jackpot won't be reset and you can collect the current value for both... AHHH!!!

Yeah, that game's the best...

More specifically, Keith Johnson did.

My WH2O strategy other than the multiball is to start 5x and then start Bigfoot hotfoot. This will get you 50 million per shot to bigfoot's cave. I can do this 8-10 times using the No Way Out VUK to send the ball up to the upper playfield. This can net you 500 million total.

I think BSD could be higher a little more: maybe not just for points, but for fun as well, I try to start multiball just before my last bats or rats-shot, try to make sure multiballs can be combined (not that you need another 3 right-rampshots before the locks are lit ), try to cash in video-mode before multiball, so that advances further during multiball (it doesn't when it's already lit), so there is some choices to be made I think.

A game I think is fairly deep is Stargate. Besides chosing to go for missions (+Wizard mode) or modes (+ wizard mode) there's the quartz trade:
'Will I go for extra ball... I'm already at 7 quartz, so don't go shooting that last letter of STARGAT(E)....and don't want to get 5 quartz at the transporter.... or do I advance the super jackpot?'
'Will I trade for all segments, even if I'm just one mission away from all 7 or shall I save more quartz for a super jackpot? I am in my last ball though....'
'Shall I trade my quartz for Sandstorm so I can start at 0 quartz again and save for the extra ball lit that I've missed?'
'Shall I advance the battle-points before starting battle, or shall I just go for it now it's lit?'
'Should I start 3x score, now the non-scoring quartz-trade mode is lit? And is my next sarcophagus 3 quartz or multiball?'

It's not all about tournament-play: I mostly play a game like Stargate to get as far as possible in what the game has to offer, getting the best score is mostly just the second objective for me.

This is a great topic, we need to add WOZ and hobbit now.

Agreed.

That graph is really cool.....

I'm not the brightest crayon in the box but I can hold my own and there are a few things I don't get about the chart...hahha but I like It

185054519_ee2eb72654_m_(resized).jpg

It's true. Popeye is deep. Deepish anyway, not too shallow.... Tough and just right

Bump for Deep Games....can the chart be updated to included newer Stern games, such as ST, MET, ACDC, etc?

Funnily? Never heard that word before. I like it!

I know everybody likes other things in Pinball games. There are people that take a world under glass as the most important thing in pinball. Sure, artwork and toys are important parts of our beloved games, but for me the gameplay and fun was always the most important thing that makes a game a keeper for me. Metallica is an awesome game with really spectacular show effects but after playing it a lot it was to much work for me and I let it go. JJPPotC starts to become work in some way too when I play for the wizard modes. It almost has to much breadth in the beginning and the distance is to long so it becomes work for me.
In the last days I had many discussions with friends about the gameplay on the new STERN and JJP games. I remembered this old thread here and I think it is a good time to revive it I would like to know where you guys would put all the new games like Hobbit, PotC, Wonka, DP, Iron Maiden, BK, SW ........in the graph above? ( https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/what-is-considered-a-deep-game/page/3#post-235601 )
For me the code on Iron Maiden makes it the most balanced game between good breadth and long enough distance with minimum work and so it is my favourite game now.