LOTR, Shadow, TSPP, IJ (Williams), TZ are just a few of VERY DEEP games. Lots of modes, a Wizard mode are a couple of features needed for a game to be deep.

Interested how deep Family Guy is. Had one once and seemed pretty deep, but haven't gone far in most games so just curious how that one ranks.

Fathom.... sorry had to do it

WPT is also very deep... and wide too--no, I mean that! There are several strategic options available on every shot (breadth) as well as progress being made towards a ton of modes/multiballs/achievements (depth).

Deep, to me, isn't just something with a lot of modes, it's something where what you have to do next is intertwined with other things that you've already done do and plan to do in the future in order to max your score... MM is not a mode based game, for example, but I consider it deep (actually I'd say it's more strategic than deep)... I'd say the more variation in what the player should do next as the game progresses, then the deeper the game is... If you simply have to start modes in order to complete the modes 'till you get them all lit, and then you get wizard, then it's shallow... athough there could be a lot of modes (wide)... I'd say IJ falls into this category... TZ on the other hand intermingles the modes, giving the game a lot of strategy and depth (too much so for me personally!!).

I'm glad I cleared that up

LOTR and TZ are always the first two games that pop into my mind.

When I think 'deep' I think of a game that you need to play a lot in order to reveal everything the game as to offer. Typically, I also think of a game that might have a steep learning curve.

TSPP is the deepest machine. Great game to play.

WH2O isn't a deep game, but it's very strategic... that's my view anyway...

Funnily enough, they pop into mine too...

A game that has you catch the ball and study where you are in order to decide what to go for next, and that decision takes either over 1/2 minute or simply can't be figured out with the brain-power available... is deep... if it takes between 10s and 1/2min it's strategic, if it takes less than 10s, it's shallow...

LOTR is deep but TZ is not IMO. TZ has a lot to do but to beat the game one doesn't have to actually do much other than start modes so you play the game without getting very far into the game. LOTR forces the player to beat the game, must complete modes, MBs, etc. really having to get deep into it.

That's what I thought, but after starting a topic on this exact issue, it became clear that TZ is much deeper than you think... (well, than I thought at least!)... As many said, it's like a game of chess... the interaction of the modes and whether to pick the next mode (piano) or a random mode (slot) all steer the game along it's ever-changing path make it way too complex for me...

here it is:

http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/whats-good-about-tz

_{Post edited by pinballslave : Added link to previous topic}

I like your synopsis pbslave.

Another way to word it for me is level of linearity vs. "choose your own adventure"

I would say that both MM and LOTR are very deep games in that you need multiple succesive shots in order to fully progress through the game and you can choose how you want to progress. They are very different in that LOTR is more mode and MM is more strategic shot but a bit more loose in how you choose your shot order.

In opposition to this I would say a standard old school logic of TAF requires fewer successive shots and is more linear in that you really only have 2 main goals and both are linear. For example, spell greed, lock balls, multiball or shoot ramp, hit chair to start mode, complete mode, make it to wizard mode of tour the mansion.

I disagree. I think the game has a lot of depth, particularly for that era. It's very tough for an average player to get to Wet Willies, let alone score the Vacation Jackpot. Plus, there is a lot of strategy along the way when it comes to choosing which modes to start and when.

I totally agree that it's tough to get to WW, and I totally agree that it's got a lot of strategy, and that's why I love it... but I'd say that strategy and toughness don't = depth in this case... put it this way, when I play WH20, I know exactly what's best to do next... it's takes sometimes 20odd seconds to figure it out, but it's not hard to do it... deep, to me, is much harder to work out what you have to do next...

I was giving an example of a strategic game as opposed to a deep game...

I was thinking the same thing, nice one!

I guess it all depends how one defines "depth". It's clear from this thread that there is more than one interpretation.

I agree 100% that TZ is not in the "deep game" category. It is fun, but it is also fairly easy to beat and the rules are fairly easy to figure out. LOTR, TSPP and IJ come to my mind as deep games. TF may get into the discussion at some point.

Indeed!! And it is the heart of this topic which attempts to root out that definitive... definition...

I'd say this isn't so easy to figure out... I got lost myself... LITZ you could say Is this easy to you?:

There are many stratagies to use when playing TZ, here are just a few to try:
Start up a multi-ball whilst Clock Chaos is running, and keep whacking that Clock target for lots of points. If playing Clock Chaos on a single ball, just keep trying to make alternate left and right ramp shots, just clipping the Clock target on the way past to reverse the Clock each time. Keep the Clock in the later hours for more points, but not too close to midnight as it will finish the mode. Remember a direct hit onto the front of the Clock target is a return SDTM drain risk!
Start a multi-ball if you have lit the outlanes from a Camera award or an orange super skill shot. Don't forget even if you collect an extra ball/special from one side during a multiball, the other side still lights up alternately for the other award!
Hold off collecting a poor bonus award at the start of a ball if it is the next Camera award (don't try to shoot the camera with the upper right flipper on a clockwise loop shot, let the ball go down onto the lower flippers). Collect the bonus award if you have already done several modes earlier on that ball (clock chaos/powerball mania/clock millions). Remember to watch to see what Camera award is coming up next! Remember to lift the upper left flipper when attempting a Camera shot!
Try to collect the extra ball award on the door panel via a Piano shot early on in the game, as if you get an extra ball any other way (high score award/outlane award/yellow skill shot/ a lock shot after collecting a certain number of robots), that award will light up the panel anyway - losing the chance to collect an additional extra ball.
Depending on the amount of drains from the pop bumpers on your machine, collect the yellow skill shot to light up the 10 million points door panel rather than waste a Piano/Slot machine getting it.
When playing the Town Square Madness mode after having been awarded it from a Piano shot, hold off shooting the ball into the pop bumpers for lots of points. Go instead for the next award at the Piano which is the extra ball.
In the normal multiball, if the Powerball is out, use that to shoot into the Piano for a double jackpot award.
If the Extra Ball award is lit on the Door at the start of a ball, just plunge the ball straight into the back scoop and don't attempt a skill shot. If your machine drains badly from the pop bumpers it may pay to always do this anyway after the first ball rather than risk a quick drain after a sucessful skill shot.
Whilst playing Powerball Mania multiball, you don't actually need to shoot the ball right through the top of the upper playfield to collect the 50 million jackpot, if the ball just breaks the IR sensor beam at the top of the upper playfield, the next piano/hitch hiker shot during the multiball will award you the jackpot anyway!
There are so many different ways of playing a good game of TZ. My one is not going anywhere anytime soon!
I think the reason TZ is more like chess than checkers is maximizing your points. You can spam the slot and piano over and over to reach LITZ, and still have a low score.
Little things like collecting spirals to get the extra ball, adding that with loading the gumball machine. Going for 3 and 4 way combo's. Starting town square madness before power ball multi ball, etc.
There is a ton of strategy to the game! Your Power Ball multi ball/mini playfield value's are not collected til end of ball. Tilt and you lose them! I've seen a 'Collect Bonus' camera shot that was worth 600 million, due to the fact that the player had beaten the power field in multi a bunch of times, only for him to tilt later on and lose the other 600 million owed!

A deep game to me is how "long will it take for me to" beat it and get to the final wizard mode. LOTR mb are not easy to get. So you start a mode and that will stack with mb progression. Also get some good points while doing it. You can get to destroy the ring after you complete the 3 mb's. But then theres There and back again. Ok so to get this you "have" to play all the modes. Well now this is getting deep. Then after all of that and destroy the ring again....You get to the final mode Valinor. So if you look back at what I have just said you have to play all 3 MB's and there not simple" lock 2 balls and 3rd gets mb" they are adventures. Then as your doing that your getting through all of the reg modes by shooting the ring and trying to complete the task, you can run mb with this also and do 2 things at 1x unlike TF. Then after all modes are complete you will get there and back again then off to destroy the ring for the second time (if you good, you may have to do this 3x) and then Valinor (wizard mode). I think we can all agree that this is DEEP.

UPDATE: I think we can all agree that a game being deep depends on how complex the rules are and getting to that final mode of the game. Racking up points while doing so has nothing to do with it.

> Lots of modes, a Wizard mode are a couple of features needed for a game to be deep.

WOF is deeper than IJ4. Having a wiz mode is not a requirement.

That means that by changing a game from 5 ball to 3 ball it gets deeper because it's harder to get to the wizard mode...

Depth to me it's a totally personal belief that someone holds about a particular game that is hardly ever agreed upon.

DID not mean to type quick i have updated my post.

Games can have a lot of content Like TZ but not be "DEEP" bc you can beat the final mode quick. I guess that just my OP.

Likely not the opinion of most people that TZ is "easily" beaten, or "quickly" for that matter.
But again everyone's ideas are different, I'm not saying you are right or wrong because it's you idea of what it means.

Take a game like TF. To me, maybe the shallowest game I can think of. We're gunna show you 4 lit arrows, hit them 4 times to start a mode....and then we're going to light some more arrows and you hit them 11 more times. Do this 10 times, and reach the wizard mode. Well to me personally, there is nothing deep about that, BUT it's gunna take you a long time to do it So maybe to you that is deep.

I really have no answer to the overall question. If you were to play TZ just to get modes lit and LITZ, then perhaps it's not that deep. Should we be factoring in all the other stuff things about it though? 3+ way combos, triple hitchhiker pick-ups, using an extra flipper in the mix, robots awards, spiral awards, dead end awards, camera awards, powerfield; I don't know.
You don't "have" to do those things, they are just there.
A super basic payout like AFM, nothing could be easier. You are of course "forced" to do things. Total, 5 way combo, martian...etc. So does that make it deeper? Maybe so.

So confusing.

EDIT: Also, scoring doesn't really come up in depth. Sure you could just continuely light the slot machine and start every mode somewhat quickly I guess, but LITZ isn't a super big payout so then you're score sucks.
IJ doesn't stop the clock when you hold the ball does it? So i guess you could hit mode start, capture ball, wait 30 seconds, shoot mode, hold ball...13 times and then Eternal Life.

Sorry, I made a bad assumption... I thought you meant how many weeks/months it would take to get to the Wiz mode, but you meant how many hours/minutes in one game (assuming you made it)... Which makes more sense, but I still disagree... take Roadshow for example... I've had VERY long games on that machine, racking up scores of over 20billion... but I never got to the final wizard mode of completing all three West Coast cities because you have to go all the way across the States 3 times to do it... but I didn't feel much in the way of depth to that game... plenty of width, yes... but not much depth at all...

I agree that it's easy to get to LITZ, but the point of TZ is that it's not about just getting to LITZ, there's so much more to the game that it's mind boggling... see a few posts up for some of that! If you play TZ to get to LITZ, you are not seeing the depth, but it is there!

Im with you on that. Very confusing bc people all have there own op. And to comment on TF. In my op its a deep game but lacks on content. Part of the reason the current owners keep it for 3 months and u see them for sale already (my op). TZ like I said not deep. HUGE on content and other things to do. Some may call that deep others may not.

SIDE NOTE
When I got my LOTR I had no clue about the rules. I did not know much about the game at all. I got to destroy the ring for the first time and was like wow. I was just on an adventure. Then found out that it was not the end. I was only 1/3 of the way there.

Another way of looking at it... Imagine you're stood at the side of a river... on the other side is the 'wizard mode'... By jumping in the river you're starting the game, and the amount of fun you have in the river equals the points you get...

You can swim across and go straight to the other side, and the length of time it takes you to get there is a measure of the games width. Buy simply swimming to the other side, you'll have no idea how deep the river (game) is...

If you decide to dive below the surface you may or may not find lots of stuff down there that you'll enjoy... fish, caves, wrecks... or just sand about 2 foot down all the way across... only by diving down can you then see the games depth...

If, in diving down, you find stuff that requires you to get a key to open it and there are some notes on where the key might be, but you have to do all sorts of stuff to find it, then that's the games strategy...

By diving down and finding the games depth, and getting involved in the strategy, you get the most fun (i.e. the most points)... some games don't have a lot of benefit in diving down, but take a long time to swin across (Roadshow), some games you can get totally lost down there because there's so much going on that getting to the other bank becomes secondary (TZ, MM as examples)...

Just a thought...

I think we can all agree that post has some depth to it.

It might be something to do with me working in a place today where all there is to drink is strong coffee... I'm not looking forward to tonight!

Have you been There and Back yet? The music and mode are awesome! Worth going for specifically sometime just to check it out... and not impossible. Just go for the white Elf rings and start all 6 ring modes.

Like most things, for sure.

I think the two features of depth are complexity (how much is there), which to me would be more linear and static and is wizard mode focused, and interactivity (how the how much that is there interacts), which would be more geometric and dynamic in variations, and is mode focused.

TZ to me is higher on the interactivity. The interaction of modes seems endless.
LOTR - higher on complexity. A lot to accomplish, but interactivity less than TZ.
WH20 - not too complex, but a great deal of interactivity.
TSPP - probably higher on both, accomplishing this game to me is like the holy grail of pinball and maybe why many consider it the deepest of all because it maximizes both factors.

There could be another factor out of the design of a game that isn't really complexity or interacivity, but just how demanding the game is on skills, and this feels like depth, but probably isn't. But could be if you consider the depth of skill needed to accomplish the task of the game.

MM - moderate complex, not really a lot of interactivity for the player to manipulate, but can be difficult for some and so is deemed deep.
CFTBL- little complexity, minimal interactivity but the playfield design requires great skill to survive and makes it almost impossible to thrive.

So, depth I think can be complex of task, interactivity of modes, required skill level, or a combination of the three. In a more rigid definition, I would exclude skill level.

Sorry the list of examples is short, but my breadth of game exposure is really limited to those I own.

Dan

Don't forget Ripley's! I put that one pretty high on the depth scale as well!

I feel the same way. A game that has a lot of options and choices when it comes to scoring is "deep" to me.

TSPP is great like that because you can bat the ball around for awhile and then see how far along you are in different areas, and choose to focus on certain types of shots to maximize your score.

Contrast this with a game like Whitewater, which while it has a very long progression to get to the end, can only be reached by following a single, repetitive path. In games like TSPP and TZ you have lots of different ways to get from point A to point B.

Also, in order for a game to be deep in my opinion, modes and features have to stack. A game like STTNG is very linear and the modes don't interact with each other, so it's not a deep game.

I think what you're calling interactivity I'm calling strategy... that would fit with WH2O, which is full of it, but like you say, not complex... So I agree with what you're saying, but personally I disagree with MM... there's a hell of a lot of strategy with it I think... what to go for, what shots to avoid, when is the right time to do this and that... many things going on to keep in mind as you shoot for stuff that effects what you shoot for and when... From a strategy view (interactivity in your words) I'd say it's more strategic that WH2O...

Woooh big boy... no no no... WH2O is anything but repetative... I think you meant to say Pinball Magic

This is a good post and a great way of looking at it. And using this logic with experience of games I owned, I see LoTR being one wide mofo river and the water is very deep with all sorts of caves and secret passages all over. But TF on the other hand, though the river is the same width, it's only 3 feet deep and not much to search for under the surface except some cool looking pebbles with swirl designs.

FGY on the other hand would be like 2 mini rivers. Not nearly as wide as one LoTR but there are so many goodies under the water that I forget I'm trying to get to the other side of the river.

Another game I've owned is SM; it's not a very wide river and it's easy to cross, but I don't think there's a bottom to this river.

The last game I own is BBH and this river is like being a 3 year old in the water for the first time. You jump in splash around with the biggest smile on your face that you want to get out only to dive back in again. You don't know why it's so fun and your not going to find any caves or toys but it's still so freakin fun to jump in there and splash your arms around like a little kid.

It's a medium deep game. The goal, other than high score is to get to Stewie Multiball and the TV multi ball. This leads to big scoring.

The ultimate Wizard Mode is the Sperm Multiball which is achieved by securing a bunch of goals during the game. I don't think I will ever get that far. My record is 4 of 8 at best. This wizard mode just seems added on and not like a be all, end all goal.

this is a fun discussion

I really enjoy the river analogy!

I didnt read the entire post above but I found getting to LItZ to be pretty easy. I had my game set up pretty hard also. The issue is with the ability to easily start modes and let them time out. If you had to complete mods like LOTR I could see the argument for it being deep. This is relative to how you play it but with a wizard mode so easily achieved I think it keeps it from being a deep game. Well nuanced? Yes. Deep, IMO? No.

Stern changed the concept of depth with LOTR and TSPP.

That's a bit worrying to be honest, I was hoping there'd be more depth to this one... I will find out myself shortly!! With some games you have to swim about underneath for a while, and you might come across a secret passage (WH2O connection totally un-intentional!) that leads to some massive underground air-locked mine which you find out is an abandoned gold mine (again, no WH2O connection intended!!)... Are you sure TF has none of that?? I suppose it depends how cool the pebbles are... are they really cool??

I have played TF for about 1h. So i could not give a great review and certanly would not rate the game on my short experience as of yet (pinside rating). I found it to be a hit here here and here. Then here here here and here and keep doing it type of game. Felt very set in its ways to me. Like I said I have not played much so its just my first op.

Pretty sure. Also, the pebbles don't always work all the time, and they're ugly. To me anyway, I know a lot of action figures on playfields don't seem to bother everyone.

Was that the pro or the LE? I'm going to find out soon for myself, that's for sure (on the LE)... if it is as shallow as you say, any thoughts on if Stern would/could change the code to give it more... for want of a less repeated word in this topic... depth...?

Both of them...although the LE has a couple more things on it...that look worse.

the pebbles are cool because they're like paint by number. If you don't do anything with em their just bland. But you can mess around with it and make it your own. Example: replaced a lot of the stock lighting with my own to give it more character. Also, Not sure if you read the debate on removing the control gate but this adds to the game a lot too.

As far as your concern about TF depth: yea, it's pretty much a straight line...a really long and very FUN line but not much else to it. You may find some cool rocks and a chest here and there on the way. But Think of it this way, there's a bunch of hot girls in bikinis partying on the other side of the river. You glance below the surface as you swim across and see a sparkle here and there, just enough to keep you excited about swimming but not enough to divert you from getting to the other side. And when you get there, the girls are much hotter than anticipated, but before you can get then drunk they have been beamed back to the other side of the river, but this time there's a keg of your favorite brew awaiting you and the girls are now topless. Enjoy the game

Yes; I've emailed them some great ideas to expand the game. I'll see if i can dig up some of my thoughts that I posted on pinside about it. And now that there's rumored talk of possibly another software update, I plan to type out an entire compilation of what is needed. The game is very very fun, but it's just missing a few pieces to make it great.

Thanks for sticking with the analogy, I can relate to it... so the bottom line is that the Wizard modes are the true highlight of this game as opposed to getting there... It would be great if Stern did something to make a couple of those ladies take a swim out to meet me as I swam across to have some mid-river fun

I'd definitely be interested to see those... I can also suggest the same tweaks so Stern get the message from different sources... Do they listen though?