(Topic ID: 95788)

What have I done? Brought home an EM. (Now with Tech Help needed!)


By canea

5 years ago



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  • 50 posts
  • 26 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by nagamitsu
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 5 years ago

I responded to an ad for "a pinball machine." On the phone the seller wouldn't tell me what type of machine it was, I'd just have to come look at it. So I drove over to the guy's house (which was the back half of a church). The machine was a Williams Triple Action. When he turned it on, it did light up, but the score motor on the bottom of the cabinet was running continuously, so we turned it back off. The seller said that when the left slingshot had stopped working he had thoroughly doused it in WD40 to fix it. Which didn't fix it. Heh. The backglass was flaking. The playfield was sort of rough. And I know nothing about EMs at all. So I told the seller that I was going to pass and not make him an offer. At which point he said, "Well, I need it out of here or it's going to the dump. So why don't you just take it."

So I did. I don't really know how to start or what I've gotten myself into, but I figure between pinside and the online wikis that I can take a crack at it.

The game came with some pretty awesome mods that I thought you guys might enjoy. We've got the attempted free play mod(?), the bungie cord rubber mod, and my favorite, the endless game mod. The game also came with a bunch of non-regulation-sized pinballs.

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#2 5 years ago

And more pics.

game1.jpg game2.jpg game3.jpg game4.jpg game5.jpg game6.jpg game7.jpg
#3 5 years ago

Not a bad game. I've worked on them in the past. Easy to work on.
Backglasses are always rough.
Discovering and correcting the hacks is part of the fun.
Those may be bingo game pinballs.
Have fun!
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#5 5 years ago

Dude, I just finished my first EM. It's not too bad. No boards to solder. . Just a lot of tedious work cleaning and adjusting switches. Common sense is clear here. When looking at relays, with the coil disengaged a switch should either be closed or open and when the coil is engaged it should the opposite. At least it's a Williams and it's only a one player. I had a four player Aztec to do and each score reel set took me an hour to clean. Williams, IMO, seem easier to work on than a Gottlieb. Just the fact that Gottlieb's use flat head screws instead of phillips really pisses me off.

On the other hand, Gottlieb EM's are typically better lookers and players.

#6 5 years ago

***"What have I done? Brought home an EM."***

You just saved another EM, Good on ya!!

Start by downloading the Schematic and Manual

http://www.ipdb.org/search.pl?any=triple+action&search=Search+Database&searchtype=quick#2648

#7 5 years ago

Everyone should have a game to play for fun and not to get to wizard mode.

#8 5 years ago

That's one game that I think would be a fun one with drop targets and a big spinner in the middle. It gets high ratings on the Internet Pinball Database as well. Williams are the easiest to work on and maintain running 100% IMO.

The condition is a little rough but it is a great machine to have for free!

Welcome to EM's!

Ken

#9 5 years ago

Its an EM version of TOTAN.

Theres been a few of these popping up lately.

Gratz on the find!

--Jeff

#10 5 years ago

Triple Action is one of my fave EMs of all time. The clanking Williams chimes, the spinner, drop targets... if it's set up right and playing as it should, it's a beauty. It's one of those why-is-it-so-fun-with-such-an-empty-playfield ones. Congrats, I am so jealous.

#11 5 years ago

Thanks for the encouragement, guys. Step one will be to show my skeptical wife this thread. After that I will do my best to get it all cleaned up and working and post some after pictures, though to my eyes this thing looks anything but easy to work on! I do like the color scheme, and have to wonder how the Arabic fight scene might go over in today's world...

#12 5 years ago

^^^

since it is your first em (welcome to the club!), here is something that is worth reading through a few times...

http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index.htm

they really are relatively easy to work on, just don't let all that "stuff" in there intimidate you... there are plenty of people here to help if you get stuck...

#13 5 years ago

One more saved from oblivion! Congrats and welcome to the club!

#14 5 years ago

Welcome aboard, and as most everyone said, nice save. For my case, I would much rather work on an EM over an ss or dm.

#15 5 years ago

Those mods are creative. At least the bungie cord mod is better than what I usually see. The cardboard at the bottom is new to me though. Nice find. I am sure we can help you get it working.

Continuous score motor sounds like incorrectly adjusted score switches in the back box. 99% of the time that's what I see on my machines. Clay's pin repair guide should help there, else throw us some questions. Good luck!

#16 5 years ago

Me Too ! A 1964 Williams Heat Wave. Never thought I would buy an EM but this came up and looked interesting with the thermometer in the back glass.. Mine was not free though, I do not have that kind of luck. It is still in my truck so no pictures to share.

#17 5 years ago
Quoted from sixpakmopar:

Me Too ! A 1964 Williams Heat Wave.

Great find! Wish I could find one down the road!

Ken

#18 5 years ago
Quoted from sixpakmopar:

Me Too ! A 1964 Williams Heat Wave. Never thought I would buy an EM but this came up and looked interesting with the thermometer in the back glass.. Mine was not free though, I do not have that kind of luck. It is still in my truck so no pictures to share.

Just saw that ad early this morning. Looked super nice in the ad pictures. Several folks looking for one of those, congrats!

#19 5 years ago
Quoted from DirtFlipper:

Just saw that ad early this morning.

Shhh , now you know what I paid for it.

Quoted from DirtFlipper:

Looked super nice in the ad pictures.

Body white paint is worn, head has had white repainted and is flaking some. Looks worse in person. I decided it was going to be the first cabinet I felt needed a repaint. I stopped at a friends house on the way home and showed it to him. He want me to keep is as-is, thinks it looks great with the worn paint. Funny thing is about 10 years ago he bought a '52 (I think) chevy panel van and was ready to have it reapinted. I looked it over and talked him into leaving the thin/overbuffed paint as-is. It just has the right look to it. He is happy to this day that it did not get repainted so It feels like I owe him by keeping this untouched patina intact.

Quoted from DirtFlipper:

Several folks looking for one of those, congrats!

Any idea on scarcity? I see no known production on IPDB.

#20 5 years ago

They're only original once. It looked plenty fine, and the sixties Williams just have poor paint survival. I'd leave it alone, but I very much prefer original to repaint. The rest looked very nice.

No idea what the production numbers are.

Definitely worth more than you paid, even as is.

#21 5 years ago
Quoted from canea:

Thanks for the encouragement, guys. Step one will be to show my skeptical wife this thread. After that I will do my best to get it all cleaned up and working and post some after pictures, though to my eyes this thing looks anything but easy to work on! I do like the color scheme, and have to wonder how the Arabic fight scene might go over in today's world...

Are you kidding? EMs are the easiest to work on! You can visually check each switch/relay/mech that might be flaky. Most are labeled. You can also activate relays/solenoids by hand to see what they do (or fail to do). It's all in front of your eyes (unlike electronics-based games). Coils, switches, levers, and a single motor. Easy to figure out what's going on with just a bit of inspection and detective work.

I also really like this game. Get it playing nice--I bet it'll be a keeper for ya!

#22 5 years ago

Nice machine. Maybe stop by the church again and donate $100 for good karma.

#23 5 years ago

Use care removing that door lock mod. It just may lift the paint.

#24 5 years ago

That "TA" looks pretty clean inside. It's a fast and fun game; a true Williams classic.

#25 5 years ago
Quoted from Darcy:

Use care removing that door lock mod. It just may lift the paint.

Door lock mod successfully removed. Victory!

Quoted from TVP:

Nice machine. Maybe stop by the church again and donate $100 for good karma.

I figured if I ever made a dime of profit off of it someday I'd make sure he got a nickel of it. From the way he was talking, it sounded like he got it for free himself, let his grandkids bang on it for a couple months until it totally broke down, and then wanted it gone. Nice guy. I asked him what he collected and let him know I'd be looking out for those things so it would be a proper trade someday.

I thought the backglass was totally roached, but it triple-thicked really well today and looking at it I think it will touch up nicely. Probably funny that I'm working on that first, but I like the cosmetic aspect of fixing stuff like this the best and I think the backglass is really important for this machine.

#26 5 years ago

Every pinball collector needs to own at least one EM during their time in the hobby.

Congrats!

#27 5 years ago
Quoted from Magic_Mike:

Every pinball collector needs to own at least one EM during their time in the hobby.
Congrats!

So true yet so many do not think that way.

#28 5 years ago

Wowza! Great story, and damn clean inside.

Love the bungee cord especially.

#29 5 years ago

I owned one in the past. Fun game, the spinner can be your best friend or your worst enemy.

To start off, try changing the state of the game over relay and see if that stops the score motor. It's a latch/trip relay, just flip it to the other state and see what happens.

After that, just start checking switches and relays. This game has steppers that need to be operational or, like all EMs and steppers, it will never work properly.

Mine had a near mint playfield and a pretty nice cab. The backglass was trash but I got a repro made. It was non working, I got it for $75 and had it working in a few days.

2 weeks later
#30 5 years ago

OK, here's where I'm at so far (summer has been too busy to devote much time unfortunately).

I read the pinrepair info. It's still mostly greek to me, but I'm doing my best to connect the dots. I added jumpers as per the guide to make the game freeplay (hopefully!).

The coil for the right most (when viewed from the front) score wheel was fried, as was the coil for the left slingshot. Both of those have been removed. When the score wheel that had the burned coil is manually rotated to the home position, the score motor stops running.

When powered on, the game lights up, the flippers work, and targets score without doing anything. When the start game button is pushed, it flips the Game-Over relay and everything goes crazy, all coils firing until turned off. Flipping the Game-Over replay back to the other state stops the craziness and flippers work again and targets on the playfield keep score. But, it won't start a game and the ball doesn't kick out. There is a somewhat loud hum coming from (maybe?) the transformer area, but as far as I can tell it's not a coil stuck on. I'm not sure what's a normal noise and what's not for an EM.

The coin door wiring has been torn up. It appears to be missing something - maybe another set of switches? Not sure if this would cause the problems I'm having or if I can just ignore it for now.

So, what caused these two coils to burn up? Do they just do this sometimes or is it a sign of a deeper problem that I need to address? Any other advice on what to do next? Thanks in advance, guys. I'm trying to troubleshoot as much as possible before I put that PBR order in.

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#31 5 years ago
Quoted from canea:

So, what caused these two coils to burn up?

normally open switches being closed. A burnt score reel coil like that might indicate a stuck play field switch. Could possibly be in the xx point relay as well, but usually on the play field. Same could be said for the slingshot kicker. You really need to understand the pin repair text to understand how an EM works. Sort of like learning a foreign language. Hard to translate a book before taking a language course. There are many subtle things to know about adjusting/diagnosing these machines. 600-1000 switches in each one!

#32 5 years ago

It looks like your coin door is missing the lock out coil which isn't needed in the home environment. I'd just tape up those cut wires because they do have some voltage going to them and you don't want them touching the metal and grounding out. If any of those cut wires have the same jacket cover they MAY (read: MAY) need to be connected to complete a circuit. If that's the case, I'd just trace the wire to see what it eventually connects to and if it's important to operation, then resolder it. I'm assuming you've checked all your fuses for correct values and if they're not blown? Regarding the burnt coils, one thing I (and many others) do is wait to get the replacements and desolder one wire at a time while removing the old and attaching the new one. Now you took photos so you can refer to them for the correct connections. Yea, like stashyboy said, the coils probably fried due to a misadjusted switch. A sling switch was probably stuck closed and the score reel probably couldn't find home due to a misadjusted switch on its assembly and kept running and running. They're always other possibilities but these are the most common. Like I said earlier, I'd forget about playing it till you've gone through all the switches in the machine. Clean and adjust as necessary. If you don't have one already get a switch adjustment tool. Regarding switches though, like Clay's said before, if you have to adjust more than like 1% of them, you're probably doing something wrong. Unless, someone else had their fat fingers and screwdriver in there a lot. One great source besides pinrepair.com is Clay's video site pinballninja.com. He has over eight hundred repairs on there and several hundred have videos attached to them. Some people learn better with video. To join it you have to donate about twenty or twenty five bucks (one time donation) via paypal to Clay and he'll give you a username and password. You can find more info on his pinrepair website. I'm cheap but it's totally worth the cost.

Oh, and get some green Heavy Duty Scotch Brite pads at Home Depot or Lowes and clean them jones plugs. Though I really don't like recommending these guys (Ray's ok) , this EM repair video has some good info.

#33 5 years ago

Thanks for the advice. Continuing to muddle through it. And yes, taking a lot of pictures. I will look into the videos. If I had visual reference for things along with the names of the parts I'd do better.

All fuses checked and correct. Checked all relays and switches. Found one misaligned switch on the Game relay and that's been corrected, but everything else lines up with the info in the manual. The hum in the cabinet was an energized coil - the center chime unit one.

I'm starting to think that the Ball count unit is an (the?) issue. Its movement is sticky and it doesn't seem able to advance (one part of the movement functions, but then spring isn't strong enough to pull wheel around, even when set tight). I'm thinking maybe someone manually forced it around and it's out of alignment now too. When I manually trigger the switch that its post should contact, it does kick the ball into the plunger lane.

#34 5 years ago

That stepper should have two coils. One to step up and the other to step down or completely reset. With the game off, manually engage the coils and see how it moves. If it's sticking the arms are probably binding some due to drying grease. With the steppers, I take the coils out, clean or replace the nylon sleeves. Clean the plungers and coil stops. With the coils out, manually move the arms that they actuate and see how easy they move. If they are just a little sticky it can be an issue. After taking photos, take them off and clean the shaft with a degreaser like Mean Green and clean the holes out on the arm. I have an old gun cleaning kit and the cylindrical brass brushes are great for cleaning. And them use rolled up paper towel to wipe them out.

You may have to take the brass "spider" off to clean the contacts with 90% alcohol and maybe shine up with some 600 grit sandpaper (if needed). Make sure to note where the fingers are before taking it off. The spring wound shaft may need to be removed to. When you disconnect the spring tension make note of how many times you unwind it. Usually two or three times on a Williams going by the 76 Aztec I worked on. When pulled out, degrease the shaft. Regarding lubrication, Pinball Resource Grease or Super Lube Teflon Lube are well recommended. These are used VERY lightly to lubricate the metal shaft for the arms and the center wheel before reinstalling. Also apply a very light amount on the brass contacts that the "spider" moves along. When reassembled, manually actuate the coils and it should step up and down much easier.

1 week later
#35 5 years ago

OK, here's where I'm at on the ball count stepper. Cleaned it, greased shafts, replaced one sleeve (the other coil had a metal sleeve so I left that one, unsure), replaced the springs, reassembled it in the position it was when I took it apart. When I unwound the main spring I believe it was wound 5 times which seems higher than the advice here and on the pinrepair page.

Still, it's not working. This is definitely like trying to read a book and not understanding the language. From what I can tell, the spider contacts are in the reset position. Should that mean that the peg on the cog opposite should contact the switch in some way? Or maybe you guys can see something else wrong in the pictures...

On the positive side, playfield mechanics and the score wheels now seem to be functioning well. It's just stuck in a no game, no ball count state.

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#36 5 years ago

Great EM, Love those Williams "pointy people".

#37 5 years ago

I think your declination coil (the smaller one) has too much tension from the spring. From the picture it's not resting against the stop. These coils should move smoothly with just the right amount of tension. Too much will cause issues and make the movement sluggish.

After fixing that, manually activate the smaller coil all the way till that peg pushes that switch stack open. That should be the "home" position. Opening that first switch tells the game it's reached "home." While you're at it, observe the switches once the peg moves away from them and returns. Do the switches close and open as they should. EM's are all about the opening and closing of switches. Afterwards, you may, then, have to readjust the spider fingers to match the manual's image.

Also, do you still have metal sleeves in the coils? If so get some nylon ones and replace. The nylon ones allow much smoother actuation. Ever notice a small pile of metal shavings under a coil. That's a metal plunger rubbing against a metal sleeve thousands of times.

#38 5 years ago

Thanks so much for the help, dtown. I will work on this more in the morning. I wasn't sure if it was possible for the spider fingers to be in the home/reset position but for the peg not to be in the correct home position against the switches at the same time, if that makes sense. So if I'm reading your comment correctly I adjust the cog/peg to the home position first, and then put the spider fingers back on so that they're also in the home/reset position. Is it ever possible for the fingers to be out of alignment with the peg/switch somehow? Like if someone has manually cranked the cog too hard or something?

I left the metal sleeve in, but I will change it out with a nylon one. I haven't run into a metal one before. It seemed important. Haha! Will check spring tension against the upper coil too - I see what you mean about that.

#39 5 years ago
Quoted from canea:

I believe it was wound 5 times which seems higher than the advice here and on the pinrepair page.

Here is how i set the springs on these units,( your photo)where i circled you just lift the pawls away from the gear and remove just enough spring tension that the Peg rotates back to the contact (reset rotation) switches without too little that it wont touch them or with too much that it whacks the contacts either.
Basically you are just lifting the pawls and setting the tension by trial and error(2-3 turns usually is fine),once thats done you should be good. Set that first before you go further.

Tabc1.JPG

#40 5 years ago

Yes, there's always the possibility that someone got the spider out of alignment. Clay Harrel shows in his videos to mark a position when removing it to reinstall it the same way. However, if someone had put it in incorrectly to begin with that won't matter. Once in the "home" position a switch opened or closed (depending on how it's designed) must tell the game it's there to stop firing the coil.

The only time it doesn't matter is on a continuously rotating stepper. Meaning, one that has just one coil and continuously spins in the same direction. Then, all that matters is that the spider fingers are centered on the brass contacts.

Also, I don't know how hard it was for you to get the nut off that holds the spider on but what I do is put the wheel in its "home" position and put on a pair of Mechanix style gloves, grab that metal gear and hold it. This gives me a lot of control and allows me to keep the wheel from moving while removing the nut.

#41 5 years ago

OK, couple more pictures from this morning. The fingers and the peg still don't both align at home together. Does the peg placement on the gear look normal? It looks like it's been monkeyed with a lot and there's also what looks like a broken bolt sticking from the back. I notice that there is a section of the gear with no teeth (6 o'clock in first picture), and from some pictures it looks like the peg should be attached to the hole near this section.

Thanks for the tip on the spring winding, Pin-it. Will try that too.

cog1-154.jpg cog2-685.jpg
#42 5 years ago

Are you saying that when you put the gear in and move the peg till it just opens the first switch and then attach the spider, neither of the two different ways you can put it on look right? By the way I can't tell from your photo but does that peg have a nylon insulator around it? If it's missing wrap some electrical tape around it. Metal peg touching metal switch is a no no.

The area of missing teeth is where the unit is not allowed to advance any more.

Don't know what to say about that jacked up screw on the back. I don't remember one on the Aztek I worked on but it's been a little while. Anybody else?

#43 5 years ago
Quoted from canea:

Does the peg placement on the gear look normal?

From your photo > below i circled is where my non add- a -ball Williams ball unit puts the peg.
Put the peg there and it should stop at the corresponding finger to tracer location (#10 lite),as far as adjusting the fingers themselves it should self align with the shaft and the fingers can be bent slightly to compensate for slight mis-alignment if needed. Unless there is play in it allowing it to shift?

Quoted from dtown:

The area of missing teeth is where the unit is not allowed to advance any more.

Correct^ at the end of the ball count it limits it to 10 ball max,which matches the ball in play lites no. 10 on the illustration of the Bc. unit canea posted above.

Ball count peg.JPG

#44 5 years ago
Quoted from dtown:

Are you saying that when you put the gear in and move the peg till it just opens the first switch and then attach the spider, neither of the two different ways you can put it on look right? By the way I can't tell from your photo but does that peg have a nylon insulator around it? If it's missing wrap some electrical tape around it. Metal peg touching metal switch is a no no.

Yes, that's right. Neither of two spider configurations seem correct, though one is closer than the other (see pictures), which made me wonder if the peg is in the wrong spot. I had a little luck manually advancing the gear so that the machine did start a game. I haven't been able to repeat that, but it did kick out 6 balls and end the game. But wouldn't start another game, etc. What generally happens is that in either of these two spider configs the decrement coil runs the peg up against the switch, but continues to fire continuously as it tries to return the spider to home, but is unable (I think). I'm not 100% sure that the switches are contacting correctly, but I think they are (the manual is very helpful in figuring out the switch state for the relays, but not for the steppers). I can shoot some video too if it helps.

I do have a nylon insulator for the peg. Just took it off to see if the peg would screw out - it doesn't.

Quoted from Pin-it:

From your photo > below i circled is where my non add- a -ball Williams ball unit puts the peg.

Nice, thanks. There's a picture on pinrepair that appears to have the peg in that hole as well.

stepper1.jpg
stepper2.jpg
stepper3.jpg

#45 5 years ago
Quoted from canea:

it did kick out 6 balls and end the game.

Only supposed to serve 5

Quoted from canea:What generally happens is that in either of these two spider configs the decrement coil runs the peg up against the switch, but continues to fire continuously as it tries to return the spider to home, but is unable

Gear looks to be 180 degrees out of sync to me.
I would set the fingers in the reset position [as shown in your photo post stepper1.jpg ] and line up the threaded peg hole and flat portion of the gear is to the left side of the contacts.

#46 5 years ago

As long as you have it at this reset position[as shown below] then the peg should be at the contacts too.

Bcu reset state.JPG

#47 5 years ago
Quoted from Pin-it:

As long as you have it at this reset position[as shown below] then the peg should be at the contacts too.

Peg is not contacting the switch at either of these two configurations. I made a temporary peg and put it in the hole you indicated earlier, and at this location the peg lines up with the switch when the spider is in the reset position. I'm still having mixed results though, and the stepper doesn't make any effort to reset/advance five steps at game start. Does anybody know where I can find the states for the ball unit switch stack to make sure mine are correct?

#48 5 years ago
Quoted from canea:

Does anybody know where I can find the states for the ball unit switch stack to make sure mine are correct?

Try asking here as you have the same machine and both are having issues that you can iron out.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/triple-action-cycle-keeps-repeating-before-kicking-out-new-ball#post-1803281

3 months later
#49 4 years ago

Wow, three months have gone by and finally getting a chance to work on this again.

The ball count unit gear must have been monkeyed with and that’s what slowed me down. I ground off the two wrong pegs and added a peg back into the correct hole (as recommended by Pin-it and seen in this video

). Now the peg lines up on the switch when the spider’s in the home position (though still not 1000% sure on switch config. I think I’ve got it right).

When I power up now and push the start button, the score reels reset, the score motor stops, and the playfield (flippers, targets, etc.) is energized and everything scores correctly. The ball count unit, however, does not add the proper increments (does nothing), the spinner unit is not resetting, and the ball does not kick out. If I manually add increments to the ball count unit (five spaces like it’s supposed to), I can essentially play a normal game. The ball count spider moves appropriately and the game ends as it should (no kick out, game over light).

I’ve also got the coin mech coil locked on. Not sure why.

So that’s where I’m at, guys. Getting closer. Any new advice while I keep poking at it?

gear.jpg

#50 4 years ago

My Zaccaria has that same ball count unit. Had some weird things happening too (not incrementing ball count, no game over happening). The switches on it need to be carefully adjusted, in accordance to the "rest" position of the gear. Yours, sounds like the coils to increment it are possibly failed or not getting the power/signal to activate them.

My game over issue resolved itself after my brother played it and was bumping during game play, which seemed to knock connectivity in a switch somewhere correctly.

Tim

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