(Topic ID: 128038)

What has Stern innovated in the past 20 years?


By rai

4 years ago



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  • Latest reply 4 years ago by markmon
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    There are 291 posts in this topic. You are on page 4 of 6.
    #151 4 years ago
    Quoted from Radius118:

    Does anyone have any pictures of these parts? I'd really like to see how they work.

    http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=2711

    Good felt protectors (thick & dense material) work just as good as long as they are smaller than the leg itself. The trick is to not let the edges of the legs touch the cabinet at all. If there is any material between the leg edges and the cab like the old style felt or plastic protectors you will damage the decals.

    #152 4 years ago
    Quoted from someoneelse:

    http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=2711
    Good felt protectors (thick & dense material) work just as good as long as they are smaller than the leg itself. The trick is to not let the edges of the legs touch the cabinet at all. If there is any material between the leg edges and the cab like the old style felt or plastic protectors you will damage the decals.

    Thank you for that link. Dang it! That's almost exactly the idea I had in mind. Someone beat me to it.

    Yes, that's the idea. It's the pressure from the edges of the legs against the cabinet that causes the decal issues and gouges into the cabinet.

    So Stern is using these on their machines now?

    #153 4 years ago
    Quoted from Radius118:

    Thank you for that link. Dang it! That's almost exactly the idea I had in mind. Someone beat me to it.
    Yes, that's the idea. It's the pressure from the edges of the legs against the cabinet that causes the decal issues and gouges into the cabinet.
    So Stern is using these on their machines now?

    My met had plastic ones that seem to be working fine

    #154 4 years ago
    Quoted from rai:

    So does Spike do away with the wire nests?

    Yes, to a degree. There are still wires, but a lot less.

    #155 4 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    People are happier playing the 15 titles Stern has released with pegs than Jpop's ZERO games with tons of innovation. Just sayin'....

    True, even a negative innovation like the pegs are better than nothing.

    #156 4 years ago
    Quoted from emkay:

    FWIW, most people I've known are lazy as hell. The idea of working an honest workweek is completely foreign to a good number of them, in my experience. There are a few exceptions and I'd assume there are a number of trades with the same lowest common denominator but hey, I know what I've paid for over the years and I don't mean pinball.

    Corrected that for you, a broader truth it is.

    #158 4 years ago
    Quoted from Baiter:

    Corrected that for you, a broader truth it is.

    There's a Katt Williams meme I want so badly to post right now but I'm trying to refrain from that sort of behaviour, so I will just nod in agreement. I think that's why some of the projects on here inspire me as much as they do: because somebody really put their heart into it.

    4 months later
    #159 4 years ago

    Not a Stern fan by any stretch. But they didn't start with the Yellow, Green, Red led mini dmd on pinball (like the Simpsons) and also move the mode lights off of the playfield (simpsons, lotr)? I would say there is not a ton to innovate on, the template was set when Williams got out of the biz.

    #160 4 years ago

    I love how some people continue to defend Williams, even after they kicked everyone in the nuts and left pinball.

    #161 4 years ago

    "kicked everyone in the nuts" I think you are talking about that 2,000 price difference between a "pro" and "LE". Hell, Data East tried harder than that and at least the paint is still attached to the cabinets as well.

    -2
    #162 4 years ago
    Quoted from Swainer80:

    "kicked everyone in the nuts" I think you are talking about that 2,000 price difference between a "pro" and "LE". Hell, Data East tried harder than that and at least the paint is still attached to the cabinets as well.

    FYI....Data East is Stern.

    #163 4 years ago

    ..

    #164 4 years ago
    Quoted from smassa:

    FYI....Data East is Stern.

    Well that's not true but good try.

    #165 4 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Pinheads are oldschool and don't want anything truly innovative.
    The ONLY company that has actually innovated anything to do pinball is Multimorphic, and I never hear Pinsiders saying "OMG, I hope Multimorphic does JAWS!!!!!"
    All Stern has to do is write the same old song, with a few new lines, and everybody wants to cheer it.

    OMG, I hope Multimorphic does JAWS!!!!!

    I'd love to see Bruce swimming up to hit the playfield on the dispay with a rumble of the shaker motor. If any company makes Jaws, the toy I want to see more than any other is a magnet. It would be a ball lock. One ball lock would be one barrel. Another ball, another barrel. With a third barrel, the disc housing the magnet would sink below the playfield, release the balls, and rise up again, starting multi-ball.

    #166 4 years ago

    I remember we were all outraged over the $7000 WOZ price tag...then it went to $7500 and then $8000. This act opened the door for Stern to realize if JJP can sell at these prices so can we. Now we have $7900 Stern LEs and $5000 Pros with a shitload of parts stripped out of them. Yeah I guess they came up with an innovative cost cutting process. Think about it the same machines for 25% higher prices and lower BOMs. At least JJP has some nice toys in their games, what does Stern have? A floating head in a barn...do nothing Gene Simmons head and don't get me started on GoT pro. I just hope DP keeps making pins..now that everyone is selling 8k games at least DP is making some thing that looks like it's worth 8K.

    #167 4 years ago
    Quoted from Tux:

    OMG, I hope Multimorphic does JAWS!!!!!
    I'd love to see Bruce swimming up to hit the playfield on the dispay with a rumble of the shaker motor. If any company makes Jaws, the toy I want to see more than any other is a magnet. It would be a ball lock. One ball lock would be one barrel. Another ball, another barrel. With a third barrel, the disc housing the magnet would sink below the playfield, release the balls, and rise up again, starting multi-ball.

    I hope they have the P3 at Expo. Not much excitement for them but I hope they can make a go of it. Where are they based? Texas?

    #168 4 years ago

    What if DP offers a "Pro" model without the bowling mech for $5k?

    #169 4 years ago
    Quoted from kvan99:

    I remember we were all outraged over the $7000 WOZ price tag...then it went to $7500 and then $8000. This act opened the door for Stern to realize if JJP can sell at these prices so can we. Now we have $7900 Stern LEs and $5000 Pros with a shitload of parts stripped out of them. Yeah I guess they came up with an innovative cost cutting process. Think about it the same machines for 25% higher prices and lower BOMs. At least JJP has some nice toys in their games, what does Stern have? A floating head in a barn...do nothing Gene Simmons head and don't get me started on GoT pro. I just hope DP keeps making pins..now that everyone is selling 8k games at least DP is making some thing that looks like it's worth 8K.

    Can u show me a Bom list price from even 2010 to 2015. I would really love to see how much cost savings there have been

    Can you also show me DP machines sitting in a few ppls houses.

    #170 4 years ago
    Quoted from pinballophobe:

    Can u show me a Bom list price from even 2010 to 2015. I would really love to see how much cost savings there have been
    Can you also show me DP machines sitting in a few ppls houses.

    Not sure why you need a BOM to be convinced that the costs have not risen in proportion to material prices. You don't need to see Stern's BOM cost to figure out the new metal backbox saves money, the elimination of the service rails saves money as does the relocation of the power switch, don't forget the removal of the lockdown bar. The spike system etc...etc...

    To give you an idea Pinsider Flashinstinct had a good post were he added up the prices of all the parts, however some of the estimates were a bit high. I suspect the cost for a pro is comfortably below $2K. Many of us have commented on the price hikes over the past 3-4 years, we can't all be high. As far as DP...they technically already shipped a product, BOP 2.0. Judging by your collection and time here I'm guessing you're new to the hobby, wait till you see TBL, it will be a treat.

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/actual-cost-of-a-pinball-machine

    #171 4 years ago
    Quoted from dmbjunky:

    I hope they have the P3 at Expo.

    P3 will be at Expo. Multimorphic seminar is 1:15pm Saturday.

    #172 4 years ago
    Quoted from kvan99:

    Not sure why you need a BOM to be convinced that the costs have not risen in proportion to material prices. You don't need to see Stern's BOM cost to figure out the new metal backbox saves money, the elimination of the service rails saves money as does the relocation of the power switch, don't forget the removal of the lockdown bar. The spike system etc...etc...

    The BOM on a Stern is really no one's business or concern. They build the machines and choose to sell them for whatever they want. If they are priced too high, no one will buy. Someone buying any product shouldn't have any concerns as to what the manufacturer paid for that product. It's just no one's concern. Stern is not a non-profit organization and under no obligation to justify their price with BOM costs. If the prices are too high, dont buy. That simple.

    Don't forget, a $2000 machine does not profit stern $3000 on a $5000 sale. They have to absorb all the development costs that went into the machine as well as the labor costs to assemble and the costs of just keeping the business running (managers, electric bill, etc).

    Finally, just because something changes, people should stop assuming the only reason is to cheapen out and save money. A good business should constantly be asking why something is done the way it's done and not just be doing it that way "because that's how we've always done it." An example here is the lockdown bar assembly. Why is the lever better than the clasps? Both hold the lockdown bar in just fine. Why is moving the power switch important? When the old days half the circuitry was in the cabinet maybe it made sense. But now when all the circuitry is in the head it doesnt make sense to have the switch way out in the cabinet.

    If I were at Stern, I would be questioning a lot more. Looking at the components in the backbox itself, there is no reason to have the backbox head be so damned tall. The boards dont fill that area up any longer. You could have an arcade style marquee, a display, and a half sized head. Sure that would be cheaper, but its wouldnt be just to save money. It would be less weight, more convenient to handle, and the only reason not to do it is "because that's how we've always done it", a very stupid reason. I'm sure if stern ever did make such a change, it would be considered only to cut costs as if the extra $3 of wood was going to make or break the company.

    #173 4 years ago
    Quoted from markmon:

    Why is moving the power switch important? When the old days half the circuitry was in the cabinet maybe it made sense. But now when all the circuitry is in the head it doesnt make sense to have the switch way out in the cabinet.

    Because in a tight space the power button is not easily accessible, second there was always plenty of circuitry in the head...not just now. You also left out the service pegs added value over the rails...they save a lot of weight over those pesky metal rails.

    Oh I almost forgot love the decals on the cabs, who the hell needs that crappy silk screen stuff anyway.

    #174 4 years ago

    Pinsiders critiquing Stern, saying that they know costs are out of their mind.
    Unless you can tell me their monthly overhead and the number of pins they sell, you don't have enough information.

    #175 4 years ago

    Regardless of what the final product costs in everyone's imagination, it's development also counts as a cost. Factor in all the development, testing, design, integration etc of just the spike system alone much less the creation of a new development platform, code base and all that.. Like any business, the costs of doing business go much much farther than the final widget you see.

    #176 4 years ago
    Quoted from kvan99:

    Because in a tight space the power button is not easily accessible, second there was always plenty of circuitry in the head...not just now. You also left out the service pegs added value over the rails...they save a lot of weight over those pesky metal rails.
    Oh I almost forgot love the decals on the cabs, who the hell needs that crappy silk screen stuff anyway.

    I didn't say every decision wasn't to cut costs. The pegs were done during the slow time where stern almost went out of business. Most the other decisions don't seem like pure cost cutting measures to me.

    I don't think the power switch movement is a cost cutting measure. They probably redid the board set and realized the power requirements were different. Someone probably asked why they need a power brick in the cabinet and if it made more sense to put the switch next to the boards that were being switched. I'm sure some old fart in the meeting was trying to say that's not how thing are done but he probably couldn't come up with a valid reason other than that so it got moved.

    Nor was the back box redesign. The back box is simply what it needs to be for a pinball. Why does it matter if it's made of wood or not? Who cares?

    I think the quality of the cabinet decals is far better than the quality of the art on say lord of the rings or nascar or Simpsons. So yea, you should love the cabinet decals.

    -1
    #177 4 years ago
    Quoted from kvan99:

    I remember we were all outraged over the $7000 WOZ price tag...then it went to $7500 and then $8000. This act opened the door for Stern to realize if JJP can sell at these prices so can we. Now we have $7900 Stern LEs and $5000 Pros with a shitload of parts stripped out of them. Yeah I guess they came up with an innovative cost cutting process. Think about it the same machines for 25% higher prices and lower BOMs. At least JJP has some nice toys in their games, what does Stern have? A floating head in a barn...do nothing Gene Simmons head and don't get me started on GoT pro. I just hope DP keeps making pins..now that everyone is selling 8k games at least DP is making some thing that looks like it's worth 8K.

    Wasn't it the other way around? I remember very clearly Jack stating that "the market (=Stern) forced him" to mark up his prices due to Sterns price jump on I think it was AC/DC LE.

    Not sure though. Probably it's a chicken-and-egg kind of problem.

    #178 4 years ago

    decals look better to me provided they are applied correctly and not falling off.

    #179 4 years ago
    Quoted from markmon:

    I think the quality of the cabinet decals is far better than the quality of the art on say Lord of the Rings or Nascar or Simpsons. So yea, you should love the cabinet decals.

    Well, let me get back to you on that...But I do put a lot of stock in your opinion.

    #180 4 years ago

    Older painted cabinets like on TSPP or Potc was like dot matrix quality

    image.jpeg

    -4
    #181 4 years ago
    Quoted from kvan99:

    Not sure why you need a BOM to be convinced that the costs have not risen in proportion to material prices. You don't need to see Stern's BOM cost to figure out the new metal backbox saves money, the elimination of the service rails saves money as does the relocation of the power switch, don't forget the removal of the lockdown bar. The spike system etc...etc...
    To give you an idea Pinsider Flashinstinct had a good post were he added up the prices of all the parts, however some of the estimates were a bit high. I suspect the cost for a pro is comfortably below $2K. Many of us have commented on the price hikes over the past 3-4 years, we can't all be high. As far as DP...they technically already shipped a product, BOP 2.0. Judging by your collection and time here I'm guessing you're new to the hobby, wait till you see TBL, it will be a treat.
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/actual-cost-of-a-pinball-machine

    You forget Stern does not sell direct like other pin manufacturers. Game distributors mark up 100 percent so Stern gets only half of the price of a retail sale

    #182 4 years ago
    Quoted from ek77:

    You forget Stern does not sell direct like other pin manufacturers. Game distributors mark up 100 percent so Stern gets only half of the price of a retail sale

    That's not true, I've heard the distributors get a couple hundred dollars per game.

    #183 4 years ago
    Quoted from rai:

    That's not true, I've heard the distributors get a couple hundred dollars per game.

    I have a bridge to sell you

    #184 4 years ago

    the only one that has innovated anything in the past 30 years, is P2K. and P3.

    Other than that, nothing really has been innovative since the ramp was invented. Maybe a little credit to Data East for introducing the DMD.

    #185 4 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    the only one that has innovated anything in the past 30 years, is P2K. and P3.
    Other than that, nothing really has been innovative since the ramp was invented. Maybe a little credit to Data East for introducing the DMD.

    and solid state flippers.
    and stereo sound.

    #186 4 years ago
    Quoted from rai:

    decals look better to me provided they are applied correctly and not falling off.

    I wish they screened the wood still. Not commercial grade otherwise in my opinion.

    #187 4 years ago
    Quoted from rai:

    That's not true, I've heard the distributors get a couple hundred dollars per game.

    Says ever car dealership when you try to chew down the price. Complete horseshit.

    #188 4 years ago
    Quoted from Swainer80:

    "kicked everyone in the nuts" I think you are talking about that 2,000 price difference between a "pro" and "LE". Hell, Data East tried harder than that and at least the paint is still attached to the cabinets as well.

    No, I'm talking about a company that milked profits on pinball when the times were good, then bolted at the first sign of trouble.

    But hey, keep blowing sunshine up Williams' ass!

    #189 4 years ago
    Quoted from markmon:

    The BOM on a Stern is really no one's business or concern. They build the machines and choose to sell them for whatever they want. If they are priced too high, no one will buy. Someone buying any product shouldn't have any concerns as to what the manufacturer paid for that product. It's just no one's concern. Stern is not a non-profit organization and under no obligation to justify their price with BOM costs. If the prices are too high, dont buy. That simple.
    Don't forget, a $2000 machine does not profit stern $3000 on a $5000 sale. They have to absorb all the development costs that went into the machine as well as the labor costs to assemble and the costs of just keeping the business running (managers, electric bill, etc).
    Finally, just because something changes, people should stop assuming the only reason is to cheapen out and save money. A good business should constantly be asking why something is done the way it's done and not just be doing it that way "because that's how we've always done it." An example here is the lockdown bar assembly. Why is the lever better than the clasps? Both hold the lockdown bar in just fine. Why is moving the power switch important? When the old days half the circuitry was in the cabinet maybe it made sense. But now when all the circuitry is in the head it doesnt make sense to have the switch way out in the cabinet.
    If I were at Stern, I would be questioning a lot more. Looking at the components in the backbox itself, there is no reason to have the backbox head be so damned tall. The boards dont fill that area up any longer. You could have an arcade style marquee, a display, and a half sized head. Sure that would be cheaper, but its wouldnt be just to save money. It would be less weight, more convenient to handle, and the only reason not to do it is "because that's how we've always done it", a very stupid reason. I'm sure if stern ever did make such a change, it would be considered only to cut costs as if the extra $3 of wood was going to make or break the company.

    Far, far too much common sense for many Pinsiders.

    -1
    #190 4 years ago
    Quoted from dmbjunky:

    and solid state flippers.
    and stereo sound.

    Solid state in general. and only one to really have true stereo sound was again Data East.

    #191 4 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    Solid state in general. and only one to really have true stereo sound was again Data East.

    I think Data East made quite a few contributions to pinball. They did some interesting things with toys that continued after Sega bought them. I also personally liked Sega's backbox but they abandoned that by the end of their run. Maybe someone can enlighten me as to why.
    I believe Stern was held back in the 2000s from delivering too many innovations because they were trying to just stay solvent. Now is the time where they will prove themselves as innovators with the renewed interest in pinball. They've already streamlined the electronics with the Spike. I hope they come up with some interesting ideas since they have new competition.

    #192 4 years ago
    Quoted from Captain_Kirk:

    No, I'm talking about a company that milked profits on pinball when the times were good, then bolted at the first sign of trouble.
    But hey, keep blowing sunshine up Williams' ass!

    Bolted at the first sign of trouble? Like the game crash of the 1980's? Which company made a game that is touted as "the game that saved pinball"? Again if you bothered to read the entire post, I gave Data East some props as well (as much flak as they get). Hell even some system 80's are good fun. I am just frustrated that when I come up to a pinball game in the wild, it is $1 to play the stripper model. That is bullshit and I despise Stern for propagating that business model. I put my fair share of quarters in LOTR, TSSP, FG, and PotC but I'll be dammed if I spend a buck to play 3 balls on a pro TWD or WWE. Speaking of milking it when times were good . . .like having a virtual monopoly? No, milking the profits is all this LE and "premium" shenanigans. I love pinball but could there at least be some decent crap put into the mainstream games?

    #193 4 years ago
    Quoted from dmbjunky:

    I think Data East made quite a few contributions to pinball. They did some interesting things with toys that continued after Sega bought them. I also personally liked Sega's backbox but they abandoned that by the end of their run. Maybe someone can enlighten me as to why.
    I believe Stern was held back in the 2000s from delivering too many innovations because they were trying to just stay solvent. Now is the time where they will prove themselves as innovators with the renewed interest in pinball. They've already streamlined the electronics with the Spike. I hope they come up with some interesting ideas since they have new competition.

    if you are talking about the bowed head that is known as the showcase head. It's because the design was crap. If you didn't pay attention or didn't know how to put the arms out. you crushed the entire front of the head. It sucked and a PIA to work in.

    #194 4 years ago

    I'm disappointed to hear that the power switch was moved to the back. Sorry, that's just stupid, and the "old fart" was right.

    #195 4 years ago

    The have innovated in the art of penny pinching by cheapening the build quality and feature set and charging more for less.

    #196 4 years ago
    Quoted from dmbjunky:

    I hope they have the P3 at Expo. Not much excitement for them but I hope they can make a go of it. Where are they based? Texas?

    Quoted from solarvalue:

    P3 will be at Expo. Multimorphic seminar is 1:15pm Saturday.

    I hope it'll be streamed!

    #197 4 years ago
    Quoted from markmon:

    Finally, just because something changes, people should stop assuming the only reason is to cheapen out and save money.

    If Stern made all of the metal in its games solid gold, people wouldn't assume that it was cost cutting. People assume cost cutting when something that perfectly well changes to something that doesn't work as well and is clearly cheaper to produce, such as the switch from the service rails to pegs on pros. The problems with those have been well documented, so I don't think Stern decided that pegs were a beneficial change.

    Quoted from markmon:

    I don't think the power switch movement is a cost cutting measure. They probably redid the board set and realized the power requirements were different. Someone probably asked why they need a power brick in the cabinet and if it made more sense to put the switch next to the boards that were being switched.

    I see. It made more sense to make the power switch stick out from the bottom of the backbox like a barnacle than to put it on the front of the cabinet where it can be most easily reached. The new position is just to save a few cents of copper and labor.

    Quoted from markmon:

    You could have an arcade style marquee, a display, and a half sized head. Sure that would be cheaper, but its wouldnt be just to save money. It would be less weight, more convenient to handle, and the only reason not to do it is "because that's how we've always done it", a very stupid reason.

    That's a shortsighted statement, because we've always done it that way for a reason in this case. Without backboxes, pinball cabinets are only around half the height of other game cabinets, which makes it easy for them to go unnoticed. The backbox also provides something for spectators to watch without walking all the way up to the cabinet and looking down at the playfield. Finally, pinball machines without backboxes just look cheap and disproportionate, like an inaccurate home edition of pinball. Making the backbox half it current size would hurt each of these aspects of the pinball cabinet.

    #198 4 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    if you are talking about the bowed head that is known as the showcase head. It's because the design was crap. If you didn't pay attention or didn't know how to put the arms out. you crushed the entire front of the head. It sucked and a PIA to work in.

    Ok, I never had any experience with it but knew it was unloved. Thanks.

    #199 4 years ago
    Quoted from GetTheJackpot:

    The have innovated in the art of penny pinching by cheapening the build quality and feature set and charging more for less.

    Cargument:
    This is exactly what automakers do. Mainstream automakers like Ford, GM, Chrysler will implement any change that saves 1¢ per vehicle.

    #200 4 years ago

    They innovated the kickback-coil from the left-outlane to a shoot-that-ball-again-because-you-really-did-not-loose-it feature ?

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