(Topic ID: 128038)

What has Stern innovated in the past 20 years?

By rai

8 years ago


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  • Latest reply 8 years ago by markmon
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    There are 291 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 6.
    -1
    #1 8 years ago

    I was telling someone about my pins who had not seen any modern pins, I mean she is aware of TAF type pins of 20 years ago but not later pins.

    I was saying Stern has been taking the basic formula of TAF and basically keeping that stagnant, whereas JJP has brought pins more into the 21st century with full motion movie clips on giant LCD, earphone jack, stereo sound etc..

    Now mind you I'm not bashing Stern, in fact that's all I own, and it was to me one of those things if it ain't broke don't fix it.

    So I was trying to figure out what DID Stern change/improve on the old formula in the last 20 years?

    Off the top of my head, the SAM and now Spike system probably simplified or cut down on heat and such things as AA battery which can leak and need frequent changing.

    SAM allows people to easily modify sound and music, which was difficult with older ROM chips. Plus the dubious blessing of allowing code to be easily upgraded. It's nice to have periodic updates and the hope of bug fixes in the future (even if the reality of perfect code is not always realized).

    Another area that pops out at me, is improvement in lighting, more LEDs and more and better GI and particularly color changing inserts which I believe first showed up on AcDc LE and can now be found on pro games (ST, Kiss) and most prevalent on STLE with full color inserts.

    I was wondering what else Stern has contributed to the basic DMD pinball, while keeping the basic blueprint?

    14
    #3 8 years ago

    Everything! There would be NO new pinball (Games, mods, updates, LCD's, etc...) without Stern in the last 20 years.

    15
    #4 8 years ago

    Stern kept the manufacturing of machines alive when there was little interest in them commercially in the US. That counts for something. There were a few good games and choice favorites within that block of time too.

    #5 8 years ago

    They didn't do too much because they didn't have to. No competition after '99 until recently.

    Their SPIKE system is a huge advance, even if they haven't utilized it fully yet. Gary has used Bally and Williams based systems, and they've all been Matrix based since the first days of SS pins. SPIKE is bus based, and that alone is a huge change.

    #6 8 years ago

    It's tough to innovate and take risks when you are the only company in the industry.
    Why change the formula when what you are already doing sells?
    Why go out on a limb when there is no competitor pushing you to do that?
    Stern was just lucky (and good) enough to hang on through the pinball down times.

    #7 8 years ago

    I agree with all the above points just wondering if there has been things that were not done before, I suppose Tron fiber light ramps color changing, although not sure if CV holds the distinction to color changing ramp lights.

    #8 8 years ago

    DE/Sega/Stern was more willing to experiment mostly when it came to cost cutting.

    Small DMD, Large DMD
    Showcase Cabinets (IE metal head) Showcase 2 cabinet where head had no artwork.
    Portals menu, ie graphical menu system vs lists
    Photoshopped playfields vs hand drawn.
    Tournament System at least when it came to an integrated topper
    LOTR is probably the first licensed pin that tries to convey the entire story.
    Updating software via usb

    I would argue against more gi. Compare Early 90's DE to mid 90's sega. They really cut back on gi and then slowly readded it recently.

    #9 8 years ago

    Harley Davidson
    Striker Xtreme
    Sharkey's Shootout
    High Roller Casino
    Austin Powers
    Monopoly
    NFL
    RollerCoaster Tycoon
    Playboy
    The Simpsons Pinball Party
    Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines
    The Lord of the Rings
    Ripley's Believe It or Not
    Elvis
    The Sopranos
    NASCAR
    Dale Jr
    World Poker Tour
    Pirates of the Caribbean
    Family Guy
    Spider-Man
    Black Suited Spider-Man
    Wheel of Fortune
    Shrek
    Indiana Jones
    Batman
    CSI: Crime Scene Investigation
    24
    NBA
    The Lord of the Rings Limited Edition
    Big Buck Hunter
    Iron Man
    AVATAR
    AVATAR
    Rolling Stones
    Rolling Stones Limited Edition
    TRON
    TRON Limited Edition
    Transformers
    Transformers Limited Edition
    AC/DC
    AC/DC Premium
    AC/DC Limited Edition Back In Black
    AC/DC Limited Edition Let There Be Rock
    X-Men
    X-Men Limited Edition Wolverine
    X-Men Limited Edition Magneto
    Avengers
    Avengers Blue LE
    Avengers Green Hulk LE
    Metallica
    Metallica Premium
    Metallica Master of Puppets LE
    Star Trek
    Star Trek Premium
    Star Trek LE
    Mustang
    Mustang Premium
    Mustang LE
    The Walking Dead
    The Walking Dead LE
    The Walking Dead Premium
    Wrestlemania
    Wrestlemania LE
    Kiss

    29
    #10 8 years ago

    They have contributed a lot, innovated not so much.

    #11 8 years ago

    Was pinball technology innovative during that span of time? No, not really. Until you have competition that is taking away customers, there's no big incentive to make significant improvements or changes.

    #12 8 years ago
    Quoted from Darscot:

    They have contributed a lot, innovated not so much.

    Oh, I'm going to edit my title to innovated. Thanks, I know they made a lot of pins.

    #13 8 years ago

    Most of their advancements you cannot see on the pinball machine. They were in design, software, manufacturing, testing, development, licensing, engineering, etc...

    #14 8 years ago
    Quoted from dung:

    DE/Sega/Stern was more willing to experiment mostly when it came to cost cutting.
    Small DMD, Large DMD
    Showcase Cabinets (IE metal head) Showcase 2 cabinet where head had no artwork.
    Portals menu, ie graphical menu system vs lists
    Photoshopped playfields vs hand drawn.
    Tournament System at least when it came to an integrated topper
    LOTR is probably the first licensed pin that tries to convey the entire story.
    Updating software via usb
    I would argue against more gi. Compare Early 90's DE to mid 90's sega. They really cut back on gi and then slowly readded it recently.

    I agree with these, and they are innovations.

    #15 8 years ago
    Quoted from BackFlipper:

    Most of their advancements you cannot see on the pinball machine. They were in design, software, manufacturing, testing, development, licensing, engineering, etc...

    True, design tools have changed drastically. You can pretty much model an entire machine in 3D in solidworks without ever needing to actually physically build anything.

    However, most of these changes were cross-discipline and industry-wide advancements--not necessarily limited to Stern and the pinball world.

    #16 8 years ago

    Innovation takes money. When a company is with a niche market like ours, it takes a lot of resources to innovate. Producing 3-4 games a year is a tremendous task for a small company like stern. If they take 2-3 years to produce one game that is innovative, they would be out of business. Look at JJP, JPOP and others that try to revolutionize the game. It takes them years upon years to come to market, and even if the game gets made, the issues that arise from such innovation creates a black eye for the game. You may think Stern is a huge company, but they are not. they are small scale entertainment company that has kept the hobby alive for decades. They dont have 10s of millions sitting there to develop innovation. They have to keep making games in order to survive.

    18
    #17 8 years ago

    The Pin!

    81SzLEXWIML._SL1500_.jpg81SzLEXWIML._SL1500_.jpg

    #18 8 years ago

    color changing inserts!
    New star roll overs
    New backbox
    New backbox locking
    lockdown bar button
    New lockdown bar lock method (ya people don't like it)

    #19 8 years ago

    Nothing really (until Spike really has a chance to show off) -but they've managed to make a lot of games that are more fun than their more innovative peers. To survive in an industry on the brink like coin-op gaming, that's pretty damn good.

    #20 8 years ago

    Those leg plates that save the cabinet decals. Imagine all the Monster Bashs' with wrinkle free decals.

    And it deserves another mention, kept pinball alive. Without Stern, pinball would have died a slow death a decade ago.

    #21 8 years ago

    The single biggest and most important innovation is Sterns manufacturing process. That trumps any toy, lcd screen or new lighting.

    12
    #22 8 years ago

    They have made some great games but at the same time have cut corners and raised prices. I love my MET Pro LED that I just bought but Sterns decesion to remove service rails, change the back box lock system and use a different mechanism for the lockdown bar on pros leaves me scratching my head. $4700-$5k for a pro is a lot of money and there's no reason they should be lowering manufacturing costs with the items I mentioned. At least they are including LEDs in pros now.

    Also, its time for Stern to start including ColorDMDs in all games going forward with no price increase. It's 2015 Stern, if you are not going to use an LCD in the back box then include a ColorDMD to justify your prices.

    #23 8 years ago
    Quoted from PanzerFreak:

    They have made some great games but at the same time have cut corners and raised prices. I love my MET Pro LED that I just bought but Sterns decesion to remove service rails, change the back box lock system and use a different mechanism for the lockdown bar on pros leaves me scratching my head. $4700-$5k for a pro is a lot of money and there's no reason they should be lowering manufacturing costs with the items I mentioned. At least they are including LEDs in pros now.
    Also, its time for Stern to start including ColorDMDs in all games going forward with no price increase. It's 2015 Stern, if you are not going to use an LCD in the back box then include a ColorDMD to justify your prices.

    Valid

    #24 8 years ago

    This is a much larger generalization... I would like to strongly suggest that the way "hurry up style combo shots" are made in LOTR forward, really changed the feeling and flow for most every pinball game that came after LOTR.

    If not for this, pinball would be missing something important today.

    I agree with BackFlipper and want to point out some obvious ones...

    Here are a number of Sega/Stern innovations that greatly improved pinball:

    -Led info displays in HRC,WPT,TSPP,ect.
    -Massive portals menu system improvements and rewrites (brought over from Sega, but it's really the same company (G.Stern))
    -USB "code update on a flash drive" system. No more erasing/re-burning roms. That was a pain!
    -Running "Live Tournament Modes", LED display (TOPPS). Nothing like this existed before Stern.
    -Fine tune "Coil pulse" adjustment strengths in software (DE/STERN).
    -All LED integrated game, out of the box.
    -Different "models" of games (pro,prem,LE) offered for the different existing pinball markets (ops vs. collectors).

    I really think you may have to take a step back from the "what has Stern does for the pinball fan" and ask about the improvements that they have made for the ops as well. Pinball would never have survived without the innovations Stern made for ops to more easily test and maintain machines on location. In turn, this allows them to make money with their games.

    -1
    #25 8 years ago

    stern is the best

    #26 8 years ago
    Quoted from PinB:

    The Pin!
    81SzLEXWIML._SL1500_.jpg (Click image to enlarge)

    Finally a maintance free pin.

    #27 8 years ago
    Quoted from PanzerFreak:

    They have made some great games but at the same time have cut corners and raised prices. I love my MET Pro LED that I just bought but Sterns decesion to remove service rails, change the back box lock system and use a different mechanism for the lockdown bar on pros leaves me scratching my head. $4700-$5k for a pro is a lot of money and there's no reason they should be lowering manufacturing costs with the items I mentioned. At least they are including LEDs in pros now.
    Also, its time for Stern to start including ColorDMDs in all games going forward with no price increase. It's 2015 Stern, if you are not going to use an LCD in the back box then include a ColorDMD to justify your prices.

    O I thought my new met pro led had a lcd display?

    #28 8 years ago
    Quoted from bigd1979:

    O I thought my new met pro led had a lcd display?

    Led not lcd

    #29 8 years ago

    Not sure it's earth shattering, but for STLE, has a laser light show, has lighted etched side rails as well as lighted head emblems (unsure if those had been done before). Minor thing mini LCD on WWE LE.

    #30 8 years ago

    I really feel like the 90's pins really hit a sweet spot for innovation when it comes to those magical pinball moments on the playfield. But, Stern carried the torch forward through an ocean.

    Have they technically innovated? Yes. Just from the standpoint of designing games that are "easy to learn and hard to master." They've also made games much easier to operate on location (bill acceptor slots that don't require extra wiring/modification), tournament buttons, etc. They've improved game sound, redesigned the back box, and have trim levels that cater to the current crop of collectors/operators.

    I think where Stern has slipped, is in absolute playfield innovation. This is going to sound like a complaint, but we see lots of fairly standard fan layouts from them...but, wow, their games over the last 4-5 years are just flat-out FUN.

    I've give Stern all of the credit in the world and support them 100%.

    Would like to see the return of a subway system at one point...and maybe, perhaps, a game with some goofiness sprinkled on it.

    #31 8 years ago

    Thats what I meant lol

    #32 8 years ago

    As mentioned above with the stereo sound

    Digital Stereo Sound Produced by 3 separate Amps on DE Pins in the 90's

    #33 8 years ago
    Quoted from PanzerFreak:

    They have made some great games but at the same time have cut corners and raised prices. I love my MET Pro LED that I just bought but Sterns decesion to remove service rails, change the back box lock system and use a different mechanism for the lockdown bar on pros leaves me scratching my head. $4700-$5k for a pro is a lot of money and there's no reason they should be lowering manufacturing costs with the items I mentioned. At least they are including LEDs in pros now.
    Also, its time for Stern to start including ColorDMDs in all games going forward with no price increase. It's 2015 Stern, if you are not going to use an LCD in the back box then include a ColorDMD to justify your prices.

    I agree with some of the stuff like the service rails. But I also think we're finding out that it's incredibly expensive to build pinball machines. It requires highly skilled labor, attractive licenses, and a complicated manufacturing process. I just don't think these cuts are so Gary Stern can swim around his vault Scrooge McDuck style. I think without it, machines would be closing in on $10k.

    If there was a way to make money selling high quality machines at cheaper prices, someone else would be doing it.

    -3
    #34 8 years ago

    Well, we already got one that makes pins with better quality and more 2015 for the same price. Soon we have 2 companies that do that.

    And if Stern raises their pins 500 euro every other pin they will be even more expensive then the JJP or DP pins.

    #35 8 years ago
    Quoted from Plungemaster:

    Well, we already got one that makes pins with better quality and more 2015 for the same price. Soon we have 2 companies that do that.
    And if Stern raises their pins 500 euro every other pin they will be even more expensive then the JJP or DP pins.

    Which one makes them with better quality?

    #36 8 years ago
    Quoted from TomGWI:

    Which one makes them with better quality?

    If spooky is using B/W parts. . . .

    #37 8 years ago
    Quoted from Swainer80:

    If spooky is using B/W parts. . . .

    Have you played an AMH? No offense to spooky. The game is pretty good. But it really feels homemade and not very smooth or tight. Using B/W parts doesn't automatically make a better quality machine.

    #38 8 years ago
    Quoted from rai:

    I agree with all the above points just wondering if there has been things that were not done before, I suppose Tron fiber light ramps color changing, although not sure if CV holds the distinction to color changing ramp lights.

    How about staying in business? That hadn't been done in the past 20 years.

    #39 8 years ago

    built in tournament system (TOPS).
    machines that now can access a menu during game play and change settings etc, and come out of menu right back in middle of game.

    "coin door ball saver"
    "no tilt" while coin door is open.

    (both of the above are huge in the tournament world.)

    no resetting machines.
    hard core solid boards and connectors.
    less stuff under the play field so easier to work on.

    automobiles are kinds the same, doesn't mean you have to re invent the wheel....or change the game entirely, its the little innovations that count.
    and if you look at striker extreme up to now....big big difference in game play and feel these days.

    #40 8 years ago

    IBFTL

    #41 8 years ago

    It looks like they are starting to innovate a way to get customers to pay a premium for an LE version and then after they sell them out come out with a bunch of new "mods" to make extra cash. I am not an LE buyer but i think they deserve every additional "mod" Stern makes for the machine they purchased.

    #42 8 years ago

    You know I used to bash stern (and rightly so). They were going down a slippery slope (cheap plastic ramps, photoshop artwork, embedding insert outlines in the artwork).

    But in the past 3-4 years they have really been impressing me (including going back to hand drawn art and metal ramps). The rock band jukebox I feel was pretty innovative (draw players in by not only attaching game rules to a song, but make them want to finish modes). I wouldn't say they've done any amazing mechanisms like Williams did (WWE ring was somewhat innovative, but Gene simmons spitting balls out of his mouth is aesthetics), but that's not what they build. They build classic games, with modern ramps and great artwork, and they do it 2-3 times a year to keep the business and manufacturing going.

    #43 8 years ago

    "Innovations"
    Hmmm.
    The ability to ship a pin LESS THAN 3 years after being paid for it?
    /sarcasm

    Innovation and pinball are a funny thing. For many people - they are drawn to the nostalgia of pinball. Change it to much and you may break that magical hold it has for many people.

    Having said that, I would like to see some things changed for sure.
    ColorDMD? That should be the "minimum ante" going forward
    LCDs? Yes for some games, nit needed for EVERY title.

    #44 8 years ago

    Bash toy, bash toy, bash toy.....

    #45 8 years ago
    Quoted from snyper2099:

    -Fine tune "Coil pulse" adjustment strengths in software.

    Capcom did this on the first game back in 95 so this wasn't a stern innovation.

    #46 8 years ago
    Quoted from dung:

    Capcom did this on the first game back in 95 so this wasn't a stern innovation.

    Really? I do consider DE/Stern innovations to at least be in the same thread/conversation. All early DE (90's) games had "coil pulse" settings. I will concede that both Capcom and Stern kept improving upon them, but DE games had them first.

    #47 8 years ago
    Quoted from Darscot:

    They have contributed a lot, innovated not so much.

    Perfect answer

    #48 8 years ago

    The original title from the OP said "contributed." He changed it to "innovated" later. Makes some of the early posts look silly.

    #49 8 years ago

    Sometimes innovation may not necessarily be better overall. Stern builds machines that are solid and relatively bulletproof. Now I love WOZ and what JJP has done with pinball in terms of innovation however, with all the extra bells and whistles comes the potential for more things to go wrong. Solid state electronics vs computer driven machines. Solid state will withstand the abuses found typically in commercial environments. I watched some stupid kid toggle the power on switch like a machine gun on a WOZ the other day and WOZ went down so I couldn't play. Maybe for HUO, companies can afford to put in more delicate electronics.

    #50 8 years ago
    Quoted from snyper2099:

    Really? I do consider DE/Stern innovations to at least be in the same thread/conversation. All early DE (90's) games had "coil pulse" settings. I will concede that both Capcom and Stern kept improving upon them, but DE games had them first.

    Apologies, you said Stern and while Stern is just a new incarnation of DE I wasn't considering it. You are right though DE's let you set coil/flasher strength. Capcom split out the flippers to have their own setting.

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