That's impossible... arcades...and pinballs in arcade are dead. Didn't ya hear?

Yeah, he's just asking, but he has strings attached to the new house's conditions. Write me a check now or the house goes up in price. And the conditions keep changing, earlier Jack said we'd have our games before we had to decide on game #2. I'm going to bitch about it because it isn't right on principle to ask me to be out of pocket $6500 for a game I haven't received and then send in money for game #2 that is over 1.5 years away. Some people stand to have $10k+ out of their pocket before they ever receive a game. Don't read the thread if you don't like bitching, the title alone indicates it will be a bitchfest.

That being said, I'm not pissed at you Monster_Bash or anyone else. Just defending my bitchiness. And you're right, the best option for me at this point is to vote with my dollars and not give them away. I've pretty much decided that I'm going to pass unless the options change.

I think this is the most concerning thing about the whole deal.

Agreed. Hard to say any more than that without facing possible legal action, but the mind goes lots of places...

I get the complaints and concerns of folks but you are correct....in or out, love Jack or hate him or don't care...its really NOT that big of a deal!

Don't like it....don't want it....hate Jack, whatever, but come on....Ponzi scheme talk or concerns over financing is going too far...

IF you really believe that, simply don't buy, but to throw out implications of Ponzi scheme talk :-)with no basis in fact is ridiculous.........

February 2013: $8000 out of my pocket. No game in my home. Not a big deal. Got it.

It is what it is....its a huge deal to you, I get it, not to me and many others....you have the control over the situation, you can always simply get your money back, always could....

The pin is not coming any sooner no matter how much we bitch, and I don't like it either!

It sucks but you can put the 8k back in your pocket right now... And, you can always vote with your wallet in the future as has been discussed ad naseum..

The theme is indeed known, but by far not the classic it is in the States. That probably goes for the rest of Europe as well.

I knew the WoZ theme mainly due to the "Brand new day" song and soundtrack of the film that starred Michael Jackson and Diana Ross. Later I realized Marusha's "Over the rainbow" was actually a cover song. The movie the pinball machine is based on I never saw and don't recall it ever being aired on national TV over here. There was the "Wicked" musical, which should indicate the WoZ theme has some popularity. Don't know if people who like musicals play pinball...

Cool, that's the response that gets my respect. I don't want my money back, never did. If you go back and read my posts in this thread, I really have no problem with anything else Jack has done. My only complaint is being asked for more money when I don't have game #1.

I'll shut up, not much more for me to say. As you said, it is what it is. I don't bitch much here and I've been pretty quiet on anything WOZ related. This situation just really got my goat.

I don't see a real incentive to lock up cash now just to reserve an insignificant number and "save" $500. Not worth rushing into based on the limited game info provided so far.

It doesn't really look like early adopters are being rewarded much with this opportunity to tie up more cash.

Maybe they will add an extra 500 LE's later. I was told they already assigned #1500, and it went to someone who wasn't an early adopter reserving an existing number.

Seems better to wait before paying. Either way, you'll be waiting a year and a half anyway.

No, but hopefully, they will put their quarters/bills/credit cards in them.

I thought the same way about this theme. Then I mentioned at a party that my next pin will be great but will have a weak theme: WOZ.
Oh that was a false move. The girls and woman there were all over me: "Such a sweet movie, best movie ever...." And then they started to sing songs from it. And to my suprise I knew a few of them. There must be something in WOZ in our subconscious. No matter USA or Europe. I am not a fan of this theme. But I don't want no more superhero, action movie themes. I had enough.
And I will give the WOZ pin a chance. After more than a year of waiting to see it, now I think this theme has potential.

Fact is he's asking for money AGAIN! No games in sight! Why not ask for deposits on game 3?

I'll state it again. No ill will towards Jack. I believe the overall consensus is we want him to succeed wildly in the JJP endeavor. There is nothing wrong with expressing disappointment and concern over the ordering/payment/LE process. We all have a voice and are using it in hopes Jack may take customer feedback into consideration.

Again, if Stern went to this model I venture the posts would not be as civil. Jack has helped push Stern and the industry to reach new goals and new innovations for us the hobbyists and players. And to that he has my gratitude. But, expressing displeasure is not trashing Jack - it's reminding him of what his customers want. And in the end - wasn't that his original motivation for JJP?? Oh yeah, and to make money. No crime there.

-Again, if Stern went to this model I venture the posts would not be as civil. Jack has helped push Stern and the industry to reach new goals and new innovations for us the hobbyists and players. And to that he has my gratitude. But, expressing displeasure is not trashing Jack - it's reminding him of what his customers want. And in the end - wasn't that his original motivation for JJP?? Oh yeah, and to make money. No crime there.-

Well put. I am out on TH due to I need to put time on my WOZECLE 1st.
Sent Jack a thank you but no thank you response.
If WOZ blows my socks off, maybe there will be regret. If I buy without even playing my first purchase, well, shame on me if I don't like how WOZ plays, and there will be heavy regret.

I guess I can understand both points of view, but I think you will be fine with either scenario. If you don't put down a deposit and WOZ does in fact blow your socks off, you can still buy The Hobbit later; if you do put down a deposit and WOZ just blows, you can still get a refund on TH.

Just playing devil's advocate, but what if what people are saying is true, and Jack is using the hobbit pre-order money to fund the last stages of WoZ. Will the money be there to refund?

Again, not even predicting this is what is going on, because I am in no way affiliated with JJP, and I have no skin in the game either (no games ordered from him). Just thinking out loud.

I'm with you, I think its terrible he's done that and not fair...the thing that bugs me the most is if you are so involved in your project like Jack should be, how do you keep getting the delivery estimates so wrong....unless you might be intentionally bullshitting people...that's the puzzler to me, but I've just resigned myself to the idea that it will get here when it gets here...

At the end of the day let's hope we all get a great pin!

And every single time Jack has responded in a positive way.....the same thing will happen here...

If you recall the glass fiasco people busted a nut over the JJP logo, that you can't even see, on the glass....what did he do, he stepped up to the plate and gave people a 2 for 1!!!

That's all he has ever been about is the customer from my viewpoint, that's the whole point of making a better pinball experience.....

Let's cut the guy a little slack and give him a chance to fix the problem...I have no doubt that he will!

Maybe on the delivery side he wants to please so badly that he tells people what they want to hear and over promised which always gets you in trouble...

Got to try with women around. You are raising my curiosity... would love to hear some singing...

I think we have a winner...he gets overly excited and promises too much! I guess he doesn't under-promise and over-deliver on delivery schedule. LOL!

Beginning of the end. Run, run fast.

I think this is unfair.

I don't think that there's any question at this point that he was just making things up just to appease the masses and to keep them from bailing. In May he said 'test game out on location soon', games in July hopefully...obviously there's no way that could have been true from any standpoint. However, if he would have said "Game not out on test until November with very early software, buyers won't get their games for 10 to 12 months" how many people would have bailed? Probably a ton.

I feel bad for my friend Stangbat because he's been in this from almost the first day. Took a huge risk on a new company, forking over $6500 instead of buying other games. Game is delayed almost a year now and probably will be at least March before he gets his game after hearing the 90 days board redesign thing. Hasn't complained at all about the delays or anything, just been patiently waiting. However, I think that the Hobbit preorder was the last straw for a lot of people. He spends $6500 to help fund your company, waits patiently even though it's over a year late, and then Jack has the nerve to tell him that if you don't order the next game now (even though you don't have your first game yet) it's going to cost you $500 more if you wait until you actually receive WoZ. That's just a bunch of bullcrap and is insulting to people that lined up to support Jack. It's not about the money, it's about the principle of the whole thing, and treating people right.

I hear ya..and yours is a valid complaint. I would actually be surprised if Jack doesn't change the pre-order process a bit...especially for the current WOZ LE buyers.

I'm kinda a simpleton. If I don't like something...or a more specially a business practice. I just don't deal with that business.

Perhaps. I really do want JJP to succeed and give Stern some competition. It is just a bad sign when a company that has not delivered on previous promises begins to make new ones. JJP has every right as a business to do so. We, as consumers, vote with our pocket book. Time will tell what happens, I hope that I am wrong in my "prediction". BTW, I'm still waiting for my shipment of Twinkies.

Randy

(please, no one go off on a Twinkie tangent, too many calories in that one)

_{Post edited by WNflyer : grammar.}

For awhile I found the topic of THLE to be quite entertaining and have noticed that this issue has single handedly captured the attention of the pinball community.  Seems people have strong opinions about what it all means and how it was handled - to the point they feel compelled to voice their opinion.  Often this means writing it multiple times using multiple sites.  

To all the people that say Jack is forcing you to pay up now, get over yourselves.  He has actually offered a discount to those willing to join the prepayment option, nothing more.  Otherwise if you are interested, wait until you have funds and buy one from a distributer as there will also be plenty.  There should also be quite a few HUOs hitting the market in first six months following release, so you have options.  If you wish to wait longer, pick one up a few years after release.  If you don't want one, shut up and move along.  

I'll bet many people feel like me and are quickly becoming saturated on this topic.  Sometimes I think of the little girl who cried on tv because she had seen too many political ads and she wanted the election to be over.  

"Interesting" is one word for it.

I have nothing to add to this post except for the fact that I agree with it 100% (and giving it a thumbs up just didn't seem adequate).

He is forcing people to pay up. Put a down payment now or lose your spot and possibly any shot at getting an LE which is suggested to be made with significant differences over a reg.

What was told to LE buyers has been changed and it caught people off guard and the tension over still waiting on WOZ has obviously struck people as being inconsistent with the relationship they felt they were developing with JJP as a new company that was going to do it differently.

Sorry but that logo was a huge business mistake plain and simple. The logo covered half the shooter gauge! It would not have been a problem on a JJP game, but to sell that for Stern, Williams, Gottlieb, etc was a dumb move. Then to make up for it JJP had to give away what $50K, $100K in free glass to save face? How many people's WoZ deposits went to pay for a mistake that anyone outside of the inner circle of yes men and fanboys could have pointed out? I refuse PF glass at the glass shop when it has the tiny little water mark on it. This thing was big and obnoxious to be on a different brand pin.

Apparently the "doing it differently" part is repeatedly breaking your word (shipment dates, when payment is expected for the next game, possibly that LE's and stardard games will be functionally the same, only difference being cosmetic...).

I can see why that would leave a sour taste in the mouth of many.

The entire pinball NIB hobby is out of control... the "10K pin by Christmas" will actually be indicative of deep discounts soon if NIB prices keep going up at the rate they have been. Kinda sad when less than a decade ago Spiderman, Family Guy, and LOTR had prices ~half the current NIB rate.

And the fake LE hype should make most people sick. "Limited" to only 1500 games? That is greater than the runs of most pins over the last decade (or at least in the same ballpark as most of the titles).

Gimme a break

Misleading updates.

Intentionally misrepresented release dates.

Wants more preorder money.

Whoever puts money down on a Hobbit pin... Come see me in my office.

Having LEs at all makes me sick. Lets get ONE version of a great game and not limit production!

I prefer to think that Jack is a great businessman and salesman, but maybe not the most tech savvy person and also lacking in experience as a project manager. He is also overly optimistic. In other words, I don't think he lied or misled us on purpose. He might have stretched things a little, but this level of deception I really doubt was done on purpose.

I'm in with Stang from day one too and Woz is the reason I got back into pinball and bought the other pins while waiting....maybe that's why I should really be mad at JJ!

Like I said, you are right, the disturbing part are the comments he was making about games being out on test location in May.....and again in September.....and a lot of people would have bailed if he had told the truth....

The prices have gone up faster than I would have even believed. Any of my friends that are not pinheads cannot believe the machines cost $1,000 and up. When I tell told them they were in the $6-7k range they about fell over a few months ago. Now we are in the $7-8k range already.

You made a good point on the number of pins sold. Jack has been able to sell at lot of pins and I expect he will be able to sell 1500+ Hobbit's as well. There does seem to be a lot of friction with Hobbit and now Avengers over the past week. I almost feel we are really close to the celling with the amount people saying they are out on both and they were all in before on both. The current prices will definitely keep production numbers down across the board.

Hence the bubble... it does exist.

Location?

It's funny because many of the people that swear there is no bubble are some of those people screaming loudest about the current price increases. The release of Hobbit and Avengers are getting the most "I'm out" posts I have seen for a new release.

We may not be at the celling but I suspect we are very close. The numbers sold are going to be lower because of it and the used prices are going to stay high because the money in the hobby will be spent on the used stuff.

Still the bubble is building.

I just took 18K for my MM.

They say everybody has a price; I hesitated and said yes, LOL.

I too feel the ceiling has been hit on NIB's....its feels like its going beyond sane thinking....

With Woz, Hobbit, Predator, BHZA in addition to the recent Stern run that's a whole lot of inventory that has to be soaked up in the pin market....and I mean expensive NIB's, doesn't the secondary market have to suffer?....

A price bubble and a price ceiling are two different things. Ceiling, yes, for sure. Market saturation of $7,500 + pins....for sure. Bubble? Not sure about that. That implies prices of existing games will plummet at some point. Nobody knows, but I doubt it'll happen. The only way would be if the new games are so great they almost obsolete older titles. Again, I doubt it'll happen.

You are right, ceiling, not a bubble. Thats what I was trying to say when I said people are going to spend less on NIB and more on older pins. I think the money in the hobby will be the same. Now the guys that had planned on spending $6500 on one of the NIB and dropped out are going to take that money and spend it on something else they have been wanting already out there. That is going to slow NIB sales and increase cost on used/older pins.

Don't really care about the Hobbit, but as far as that glass is concerned, total non issue. I played a T2 with that glass on there and unless the logo was pointed out to you, you wouldn't notice it one bit. I just wish I would've been savvy enough to get in on the 2 for 1 deal.

You are a smart person for doing so IMHO.

I believe there is a bubble, of sorts. When prices rise to a level and the market slows or stops for any number of reasons that's a bubble. Maybe people have no play money or interest to purchase any pins not just the NIB stuff. If and when that happens all prices take a fall because there is no more demand / money changing hands. How much it rolls backwards remains to be seen.

In housing people use to purchase property to actually live in and pay it off in the process. When people only purchased houses to flip and make a quick buck it worked for a while. When prices rose to a higher level and the people on the bottom stopped buying homes the entire industry stopped and slid backwards.

There has been a lot of pin flipping and NIB prices have been going up at a steep rate. Our nations economy is not great and if another recession and unemployment increase that means less play money for most people. A lot of people WANT a MM but when you do not have money for a $2000 pin the demand drops and so should prices. Several people are dumping or selling off their collections due to peak pricing right now. Smart move if you are looking at max dollars.