No one is forcing anyone to pay.

What's the problem ?

I don't understand why this keeps coming up.

LTG : )

People pay for your pizza before you make it for them All kidding aside, I think it's crazy that they're taking money for the second game when the first one isn't done yet. Of course, if people are willing to give you a two year interest free loan, then you don't need a bank!

Suppose the first one (WOZ) is finished and in your hands. You like it. How do you know the next one (TH) will be to your liking? WOZ could be great and TH not. WOZ could be so-so and TH great. Even if you play and like WOZ is that a guarantee you will like TH as much? I may like AC/DC but hate X-Men.

Well its an interesting question - He certainly has to pay a portion of the money to vendors during the process. The only way for him to do business the old way is to take on investors or a bank loan. I imagine its a risky model (i.e. expensive capital)

Selling games to the loyal and giving them a discount is a less costly funding of money - and should drive down the prices, as his profits can be achieved at a lower rate. However, at the end of the day I voted NO. They have not earned my loyalty in being a YEAR late and another promise of 90 days, no no really this time.

Is there a need for another thread bashing JJP and the way he is running his business? It is simple, don't like it vote with your dollars. That is the only way it will change. This thread is going to do nothing to change his mind. Call him on the phone and talk directly. That will do more as well. He is easy to get on the phone I hear.

If he needs to get money to finish WOZ the business will not survive. Highly doubt that is the issue. Jack is a smart businessman.

I thought JJ was partially funding this with his redemption business, no?

1. According to dealers, Oz is shipping already in small quantities
2. How does Stern handle pre-orders? Do you simply sign up, put down a payment, or pay in full up front? JJ at least spreads out the payments in increments.

Every pinball company has to start working on the next pin while the current ones are being built, that's how manufacturing works

i don't think he needs money, jack's been in business for long time.
i do agree people should at least get the first pin before asking money for the second one.
could be that jack just want to make sure he's gonna have enough business (work) for the next 2 years. that way he can plan ahead.
as for me i don't care about WOZ but do care a lot about TH, so if i don't get the LE i can always get the regular version and upgrade it later.

1. Make WOZ

2. ????????

3. Release Hobbit

4. Profit

Jack said that even the machines going to pinballsales (his other company) have to follow the payment schedule so I think he is keeping them apart.

I would have sent a commitment in today. Said yes I will be in for TH - I have a history I paid every payment on time, not one single where is my game e-mail, I played by the rules he set up and even dealt with the modified rules. At the end of the day - he started a thread in the Group that said everybody had to pay - I unjoined the group and am left with nothing but frustration on the way this was handled. I understand he had to get the announcement out soon - but how does that translate to I have to pay again, before having game one. I communicated with Jack and got a sorry I had no choice. You could have said your in - make your first payment two weeks after you know WOZ is everything I promised, instead of trying a buy now or your out approach.

We have seen real games of WOZ. We have seen pics of the factory with playfields and oodles of parts for it. We have known Jack for years and he has been all about service. We know his team is high caliber. WOZ is coming and yes it has been delayed but I bet it's so he can make it so few things are needed to tweak or fix. WOZ is coming.

The Hobbit movie is opening soon. Jack knows his market better than we do and has a feel for how much interest there is in this title. He figures now is the time to pounce and start taking orders to keep his new business in going.

"Good" or "bad" is relative but the guy has done something I sure as heck couldn't have done in this life - make a bunch of pinball machines. And for that, I applaud him (and Stern and anyone else that brings us a game).

Don't forget there are a lot of other titles we can still buy and we can wait for WOZ and TH later if we choose.

Time will tell but I like the present for pinball.

That makes no sense. You can even talk and let the hype build. It should only be a few months.

If the date for delivery of "The Hobbit" is July 2014, will WoZ have shipped by then?

can totally understand everyone's input on this. but really... its kind of crappy to take money on game number 2 before number one is even in anyone's collection. i really hope jjp succeeds and gives us more games to enjoy. hell, bring williams back to make pins like they should be made so that stern and jjp have to live up to those games... oops, time to get out of dream land. it is what it is, hope woz is done soon, th gets done, and we see a better title for number 3 (if there is a number 3) and stern does something better than the comic book/movie crap. hell i should have ordered jpops game.... good luck to everyone waiting on woz

I for one agree completely with the OP here.

I also agree that no one is forcing people to buy TH, and that people can and should vote with their wallets (i.e. say no to the pre-purchase model).

I do however disagree that this is the only way to react.

Its not just "if you do not like it, don't buy". People should express their displeasure. And do it as much as possible, especially if there is a significant problem. It should be a combination of people not accepting this payment method by not ordering, and being as vocal as possible. Why? So that this does not become the norm. The less people say, the more it becomes the "way the business is run". I personally do not want to have to tie up 1000s of dollars for years at a time to fund someone else's business. Why should the buyers take the risks?

If JJP can't afford to make them, then he should have to take out loans from a bank or get investors. That is the way most companies have to do business.

The more the pinball community talks about this, and bitches about it, the less likely this will be the norm.

When do you pay Stern for them?

JJP requires you go all "Insert Polygamous Utah religion here" to enter their pinball temple. You must live a certain way of life to see the factory since they no longer offer tours (now that a few million came in).

Rather than knock on doors & preach you have to go to RGP/Pinside & defend.

Rather than a 10% tithing you have to pay $7500 every year without receiving a machine (WOZ, Hobbit).

You have to constantly chant "Production started in May, this is the gospel & I know it to be true" & "The journey is the reward" & constantly reassure the doubters you have "faith" in your leader.

Eventually people break free & buy real games that occupy space in their home. Then they write tell all books.

So it's okay if you do it. Minimal or not ? And before Jack ever did ?

Wow.

LTG : )

What happened to the price of those today? Seems like they worked out long term.

And the whole "JJP is a great guy" and "he is trustworthy" is irrelevant to the argument.

Whether or not the business model is good for the pinball community is not dependent on whether or not JJP is nice.

If the economy tanks even more, and he goes out of business, the pre-order people are SOL.

The OP that I run with tells me to never buy a first pinball machine made by a company. He said it always has bugs. I know Jack is dealing with these "bugs" and wants it to ship with out bugs. I'm cool with that.

I bet Jack had a time line for the Hobbit and it was to be put out for pre-order right now. A year set back for OZ probably wasn't in his time line. Lame, yes, but its what has happend.

TH? You guys can't type 6 letters?

Hobbit, wow I need a nap. Too much typing

but still no jjp pin out... more money for next pin.... its kind of shitty, especially for those who already paid him for the first pin. more money needed now? staying away from jjp pins till they actually start showing up. hope it works for him

Who said he needs the money? Any facts? I got the feeling he was forced to release the info on it by the license holder. If it has been announced, he might as well start selling it. If not he is just going to keep getting calls from the guys that want in. They are just doing the same thing you are saying buy to get in, not change the process. I have a feeling this is already the norm.

Who says he needs more money? See, my last post.

Yeah, yeah ,yeah, but what about phase 2? Time to go work, work all night!

then why ask for more money to reserve a chance at game 2 before game 1 is out??? lol

He needs the money! (there, I said it!) Hasn't taken in significant new money in a year or two now, product development timeline blown to hell (yet expenses keep on coming), hitting the most expensive part of the process - funding all the components in the 1,000 he's on the hook for (with no new revenues until he gets those out).

It's a safe bet he needs the money... If you want to lose sleep, using a larger second round of investors to "make good" on a too-great deal to a smaller first round group is a scary business model to me (there are even some words for that scheme which I won't use). I hope you all wait for the WOZ goods before you pull this trigger on this...

What word?

image.jpg

LMFAO!! I have no idea what you're talking about... And please refer all legal threats to PinballWizard79!

Because he is trying to keep Hobbit on the original timeline. If it is going to be out in 18 months he should be working it now.

So many pins, so little time.
By the time I figured out which AC/DC I wanted I lost interest in all of them.
I am out of room and like all the games I have so unless someone makes The Big Lebowski I am out for awhile.
Gary said no way he will make it and with Hobbit being #2 for Jack I don't see him ever making it.
Neither Hobbit or Avengers does a thing for me I would rather play my Firepower.
I guess I have become immune to the hype.

Who knows what the state of pinball will look like in 10 years from now?
If people will spend 7000-20,000 on a pinball machine new or used we better hang on to what we have now - dont sell anything

If he doesn't need money , than why ask for it . Maybe he could just ask the people who already paid for #1 if they would like to be in on #2 and let them pay for it when its done . It would show some faith in the 1000+ buyers of number 1, Just like those 1000+ buyers have shown faith in JJP by sending their money.

I know you are going to buy a WOZ, I can tell by the ruby red slipper in your avatar!

Just for conversation and not based on any knowledge of the situation, if he does indeed need the money to cover all of the new costs such as the factory start-up, the pinball operating system, etc. on top of paying a small team of regular staff their salaries for an unexpectedly longer stint without moving into production then it makes sense that he is looking for steady cash coming in which would be the case if Hobbit has enough buyers on the 1.5 year payment schedule. In that model of revenue, if he does not get enough TH buyers, then he will have to choose from such options as a bank loan, new company investors, or going bankrupt.

If WOZ sells decent after its early units ship and Hobbit gets good pre-order numbers, then at some point during the Hobbit sales JJP should be able to cover the initial overhead costs and be fully profitable.

totally agree, just another stern... was so set on getting a premium not too long ago, now i would rather find a black rose that i have wanted for a long time. too many pins, not enough time lol

amen on this one..... come up with something orginal already. when was the last non licensed pin???

And this is the right answer. Kudos to LTG.

This is why I was so disapointed with this anouncement of Hobbit . I've been told that I'm living in the past and things change , But On JJPs website They said game #2 was going to be an orignal theme by Dennis Nordman .

The slippers needed to be zippers and they are backwards, it is click your heels not your toes.

Pretty tough to do considering Dennis Nordman doens't work there and is posting threads here about doing an original theme (Elvira based?) on his own with Greg.

Most people will not prepay by February for the Hobbit so consider it an $8000 game. At $8,000 I highly doubt that they're going to be selling out those Le games anytime soon due to the reputation Woz has with its crazy delays.

I mentioned earlier, I think he is doing it to keep the timeline on Hobbit. If WOZ was on time the timing would be fine and we would not be having this discussion. He needs to keep this one moving. That is my guess.

If he would have given WOZ buyers a deal to not pay, everybody else would be screaming about getting screwed by putting money in and nobody else has to.