Them issuing any updates at this point wouldn't make you wrong. In order for perception to change there would need to be a new pattern of behavior. One round of updates wouldn't mean that JJP has changed their pattern of behavior in taking a very long time to update games.

It would only mean they finally issued updates (or even one update), and it would still be arriving WAY overdue. In my eyes they wouldn't be vindicated. It would be more of an "it's about time" event.

It's the same reason they haven't done a POTC update. They aren't trying to sell more GnR at this point so they aren't prioritizing updates to GnR code. Once they stopped building POTC they weren't going to put POTC code work ahead of current or upcoming titles.

It's a HUGE negative with JJP. They pretty clearly have a mindset that they've already got the money in their pocket from sales of the last title. So they're only prioritizing work on generating sales for what's on the line or what's about to be built, even if it means leaving customers hanging who bought their previous title.

For me owning it is a bit of a mixed reaction the past couple years (as we're now more than 4 years without a code update).

On the one hand I still really like the game because I think it's a neat and unique layout to shoot, and of course it would be even more fun to have the code enhancements in beta delivered and to have the final wizard mode to go after.

And on the other hand when I see the machine I can't help but think what a bunch of ****ers JJP are for taking the money and running from the people who bought the machine because they haven't cared enough over the course of 4-1/2 years now to even deliver the final wizard mode that was promoted when the game launched.

I've definitely voted with my wallet. After the way JJP handled POTC and Wonka playfield issues and as it became apparent they were leaving POTC customers high and dry on game code I decided I wouldn't ever buy another JJP.

I don't care if JJP makes the most amazing pinball machine ever and sells it for a ridiculously low price. I won't even think about buying it. I've purchased 5 Sterns since then and now have a CGC on order.

I think POTC has been in beta for 3 years now.

Could. Not. Be. More. Wrong.

There's no insert but the JJP rules flow chart released with the game shows Break the Curse starting with a shot to the Map Hole. It's on Page A-24 of the manual, and both the programmer and designer have acknowledged a final wizard mode in prior years with statements like "There won't be another code release until the final wizard mode is done".

https://marketing.jerseyjackpinball.com/potc/POTC_Manual%202_0%20November%202018.pdf

It's really mind boggling how many people continue to overlook or re-interpret facts to try to come up with excuses or reasons to defend JJP and make it seem like maybe JJP hasn't completely dropped the ball on this and short changed the customers who bought POTC.

There’s a mini wiz mode for completing each of the 5 movies. But none of those modes are all that great. IMO getting to them is the fun/challenging part in this game.

As for the people who keep saying you won’t get there anyway, it’s BS. It can be done by good players on standard settings and it could definitely be done by people who want to change their setting to a 5 or 10 ball game in order to see it.

Yep I’d forgotten it’s there. Says “Break the Curse” on the perimeter of the Shoot Again light between the flippers.

1,557 days for POTC

True, but reputation will likely catch up to them and hurt sales of new games at least a little bit if they continue on this path of poor code support.

Eventually even some of the most rabid “buy it regardless of quality or code issues” people will start to rethink it.

The promise was official. It’s in the rules chart they made for the game and on the playfield.

But yes definitely lesson learned about buying a JJP.

Lol I don’t know what that is and I’m guessing I don’t wanna know

It is definitely gross negligence. They'll say they're still going to do it, but I don't think it's happening for a long time yet.

There's no doubt it takes a lot of effort. But POTC's last update was over 4 years ago and at that time there were known bugs to fix and a list JJP posted describing changes coming to character perks.

This perpetual beta garbage they've been doing is just poor effort. Regardless of how much time it takes, over the course of the last 4+ years there should have been enough small blocks of time available to put together an official update with at least some of this stuff in it instead of sticking to the mindset the coder and designer both stated of "no code update until the wizard mode is final".

After 4+ years there's no excuse to be made for them. It's just BS effort and the JJP team not caring to get anything done for the customers who bought POTC.

The statements in these recent posts below pretty much sum up JJP now. JJP isn't looking for customer satisfaction anymore. And a company behaving like this is not a company I want to buy anything from.

I mean, that's fine to ask but really what do you expect their answer will be? I'm guessing it would just be something generic along the lines of "we will be delivering code updates on the games" with a BS line about how delivering code to their customers is a big priority for them. Do you really think they'll say "We won't be delivering those updates for awhile?"

Just expect that you can't rely on whatever they say. Similar to the last 4+ years for POTC.

Yep it's completely bonkers for someone to want to have options other than David Thiel to work the audio on a pinball game when you already have him there ready and willing to do it. Says a lot about both the person making that decision and the company who's giving that person decision making authority.

And to not want LTG providing much needed support on Pinside, and to not want Butch on manuals & other work, and I'm sure there are probably more examples too.

About the only thing JJP does really well anymore is talk smack and not back it up. At TPF 2 years ago Jack and Steve Ritchie spent an hour on a panel ripping Stern including saying how they'd only do a game with full access to any assets for a theme. Then they released Toy Story 4.

Lots of talk from JJP about code, quality, etc. with not a lot of backing it up for the past 5 years.

I'm looking forward to getting Pulp Fiction and another Stern and saying "hell no" to whatever JJP puts out.

But JJP pins are so heavy, they MUST be great!(sarcasm)

I get what you're saying and yes it's worth asking them because they deserve to have the question asked and it should be asked repeatedly. But I wouldn't expect any substance in an answer.

It's just too easy for them to simply answer that they're not done with updates. And if there's a follow up question about timeline they can just spin some vague word salad that essentially says they care a lot and it's on their list of to-dos without committing to a timeframe. I wouldn't expect them to answer a question any differently than that.

And I don't feel bad for them at all. On POTC they've made a decision not to release ANY updates until a final wizard mode is coded. In the last 4 years they could have found enough small blocks of time to finalize a code release or two that contained the character changes and any bug fixes or other items currently found in the beta. But instead they've chosen to deliver no updates at all on the game. For 4 years. That's not unfortunate circumstances that would make me feel bad for them. 4 years means it's a conscious choice and not caring to deliver anything to the customers who bought the game.

And having the beta is not an acceptable substitute for issuing official code releases. I don't want to have to deal with potential beta release issues like the file being too big for the hard drive in the machine, which apparently happened. And if it did happen, then all I can think is holy cow what is the deal with that code team. That issue plus wanting to separate themselves from the services of David Thiel because they want to go in a different direction than the best audio guy in pinball leaves an impression that things aren't good in the code world at JJP. Again, not feeling bad for them. They've created their situation all on their own.

Even if they do announce something about code for GnR and/or Pirates at Expo, let's not get all crazy thinking JJP is now suddenly doing a good job on code.

Whenever they release an update for one of those games there will still be no good excuse for how long it's taken They're both way, way, WAY overdue and delivering at this point shouldn't be considered a positive for JJP. It'll just be them finally doing what they should have done a long time ago.

Same here. Not delivering final code for the customers who bought Pirates 5 years ago is complete B.S. The way they handled customers with playfield issues for Pirates and Wonka was just plain slimy too. Especially with Jack being asked directly if they'd fixed their playfield issues at Expo 2019 and him answering with a simple "Yes" with a tone that suggested "how dare you even ask the question". And then of course after that Wonka playfields turned out to have serious issues too.

JJP has shown who they are time after time, and I'm not inclined to make excuses for them and pull for them as some sort of an underdog story. I'm just a customer who wants to buy fun, reliable pins that have good, consistent support from the manufacturer. And based on my experience with JJP I think they're either incapable or they just don't respect their customers enough to deliver polished and reliable product on a consistent basis.

I told my distributor that JJP can make the most amazing pin ever and price it at $2,500 and I still won't buy it. They won't get another dime of my money.

I disagree that all they need to do is communicate and say they're committed to the code work on all their games. It's taken years of inaction and not delivering on code for them to have earned their reputation. They dug the hole they're in, so it's up to them to get themselves out of it over a period of time. This reputation that they've earned can't be changed by some statements or even by a couple code updates.

If they put out the final wizard mode for POTC today, that shouldn't vindicate them or change their reputation. It's been 5 years. Delivering the code even today couldn't remove the stink from that fact.

Same goes for GnR. They pushed that game way down their priority list for code just like they did on POTC, even though they sold a ton of GnR. People tried to make excuses for JJP not updating POTC code by saying Pinside caused them to not sell many machines, so it's not worth it for JJP to update code.

But what's the excuse for shafting so very many GnR customers? And again, at this point whenever they do put out a code update it doesn't clean the stink off the situation and how they've taken years to deliver for those customers.

At this time I don't see any reason to think JJP will get better. All this poor performance has been going on for the last 5 years when they were only putting out a new title every 18 months. Now they're picking up the pace on releasing more titles. So there's really no evidence to support why anything might change for the better. If anything, evidence points to it likely getting worse.

It takes time and consistent behavior to earn a reputation, whether it's good or bad. From here out, in order to change their current reputation (which they have absolutely earned) they need to show new behavior over the course of a few years and titles. They need to prove over a period of a few years and titles that they're able and willing to deliver for their customers.

And Spooky has released updates for Halloween and Scooby in the last two weeks. Halloween isn't on the line anymore at Spooky. So it really can be done if a company truly cares about completing the product they sold to their customers.

True, but at this point any legacy support is still better than the crickets coming from JJP.

... and this is the JJP ReadMe file from that GnR update

9E17B0F2-BF5B-4EAC-9A0C-95C80F1BDFEF (resized).png

Another beta code for a game? smh

It's amazing that they seem either unwilling or unable to push out official updates on so many games.

Or maybe just keep it simple and straightforward by borrowing a single line from Public Enemy: JJP code is a joke!!!

Probably will be best to just wait for Beta #82

Based on their last few games and POTC, I'd say it's pretty evident that they only care about code development for a game that's currently on the line or that's coming up in development.

But whether it's "they don't care", "they're unwilling", or "they're unable" to do it doesn't really matter. The bottom line remains the same. Customers who paid a lot for a JJP game are left wanting on code. 4-1/2 years for Pirates, and now the GnR beta program is getting pretty long in the tooth also.

They clearly haven't cared about satisfying incomplete code for the customers who bought Pirates. It's been 4-1/2 years since the last official code update and I think 3+ years of beta code. If they cared about delivering anything for POTC customers, then they would have found enough small blocks of time over the last 4-1/2 years to cobble together at least one official POTC update that included some of the beta features, even if it didn't include the final wizard mode.

But all along they've had a lack of comment about it other than to say no POTC code updates until the final wizard mode is ready. And that right there says everything about how much they've cared for 4-1/2 years to deliver ANY progress to the customers who bought it. And it's not good.

Possibly, but don’t forget that when JJP did official code updates to add Scorbit and WiFi capabilities to old machines, they didn’t do it for POTC. Woz, Hobbit, and Dialed In got it. But they didn’t do an official release for POTC. They’ve continued to just skip over that game.

And I agree timing is the thing. And communication. And after 4-1/2 years of no code and mostly silence on POTC anything that’s put out at this point is not a job well done. JJP long ago crossed the point of being neglectful and dismissive of the game they sold to POTC customers and nothing will change that.

Yes, if you using conventional wisdom, reasoning, and/or logic then it would be hard to believe that they wouldn't push it out for all games.

But, again, 2 years ago they pushed out production code for wifi and Scorbit for all games except POTC. And they still haven't pushed it to production in POTC in the following 2 years. So it shouldn't be too difficult to believe it could happen again, especially since they've stated no code updates until the final wizard mode is done. It's their own statement, and they've been holding to it.

Not to mention that, if they are working on Pintrack or something similar to Scorbit or Insider Connected, then that's probably a really bad sign for POTC code updates. I can't imaging a meaningful POTC update is priority over that work and any new game code development, so again it seems likely that it's kicked significantly down the road.

Would be good for POTC owners to finally get what should have arrived long, long ago.

The abandonment of this game for production code has been really poor form by the JJP team. It stinks, and that's not a stink that just goes away with finally doing what should have been done long ago.

This shouldn't really come as a surprise. This is the type of middle finger response they've been giving to customers for years now about code... YEARS.

At this point it should be pretty clear this is who they are and this is what they think of their obligation to deliver a good, polished, and completed game to customers in a timely manner.

Even if they deliver code updates today, they'll still be YEARS overdue and they'll still be the same people with the same lack of consideration for the customers who bought their games.

They aren't going to change overnight. In my view, anyone who thinks JJP will have suddenly turned the corner on attention to code when/if they deliver POTC or GnR code will be very mistaken.

JJP now has clearly shown over the last 4 years how they're operating. They keep proving that their priority is working on whatever's currently on the line or about to go on the line while not publishing official code releases for old games.

By now it's on potential buyers to finally start believing that this is in fact how they're treating customers of their games. It's not trolling. It's not JJP-bashing. It's just pointing out the fact that they have now established a long and clear pattern of leaving customers of old titles hanging and/or wanting on code.

When a company makes it very clear over a long period of time who they are and how they behave it's best to just finally start believing that they are exactly what they're showing you. And adjust your thoughts about them and your decisions about buying from them accordingly.

For me, I just cut your statement off at the end so it reads "I will not spend another dime with JJP". Even if they released new code today it wouldn't suddenly mean they've changed their ways, so it wouldn't get me back to thinking about buying one of their games.

Yeah, but unfortunately it also seems to pretty well sum up what JJP's thinking and approach to it has been for the last 4 years.

Pirates still doesn't have the final wizard mode more than 5 years after the game first shipped from the factory. And that mode was listed in the JJP-created rules sheet they issued when it shipped, and there's an insert for it on the playfield.

Yep, they've lost me forever as a customer. I won't buy another one of their games, no matter how good it looks.

Code version is an arbitrary estimate. Different programmers put different values to it, and even then it’s still just a squishy estimate.

So version number honestly doesn’t correlate between different coders and really doesn’t matter even a little bit.

All that really matters is getting the game feature complete, bug free, and entertaining to play with good callouts, sounds, and lighting. And also having the rules and scoring balanced so it’s fun to play.

And, in order to satisfy your customers who bought at release because they trusted that you’d deliver code to make it a fun & complete game in a reasonable time frame, that shouldn’t take much longer than a year to get done. Ideally with consistent progress coming along the way with periodic updates.

So bottom line is the time frame and progress of getting to that final state is what matters. Not any version number.

Which is pretty much what they've been saying for 3 years. Here's two quick examples:

I don’t think they’ve been working on a connected program for 5 years or even for 3 years and maybe not even for 2 years.

It’s not hard to look at the timeline of events and connect the dots to see that the real issue is that they’ve repeatedly prioritized work on games on the line and coming up on the line at the expense of games no longer in production. Just look at the code release history and how it lines up with production and consider the number of people on their coding team vs Stern.

They may release code for old games this year. But it will just be because it took them 5 years (POTC) or 3 years (GnR) to get to it. Not because they were working on a connected product that whole time.

And even now they’re likely only finally prioritizing some old games because new game sales were finally getting hurt because of the reputation JJP earned on abandoning code on older games.

5 years ago today, on April 23 2019, code v.99 was posted for JJP POTC. No official updates have been posted since then for that game.

Well they might be finally getting around to an official GnR update after 3 years, but I wouldn't call that "recommitted to previous games" just yet. I think the story is more that sales were hurting because of their unfinished/unpolished games so now they're starting to work on them to try to salvage their earned reputation for crap code support.

Based on how they've gone about things, I think if sales were humming on their recent titles they wouldn't be feeling obligated now to do this code work on older games. Otherwise they would have been feeling this obligation all along and issued some updates on POTC code while Wonka and GnR were in production.

I think it's yet to be seen how much of a true commitment they have to supporting games that are not currently in production. it will still take at least a couple years and several titles to see how they're truly handling code going forward.

That's a good question and really only the people at JJP know the answer.