(Topic ID: 96622)

What games are used for tournaments?

By Russell

9 years ago


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  • 306 posts
  • 58 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 years ago by Jeremecium
  • Topic is favorited by 11 Pinsiders

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    #13 9 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    See, I don't get it......couldn't you make the same point about Casino Run on Jackbot? It's a total crapshoot what you get, and sometimes you will get billions of points, and other times you will get a bomb on the second pull (Which on MY game is instant death because I have early code that you can't cheat out 1 bomb.....you just lose everything lol..). It's one big huge mystery mode.

    What players will and won't accept with regard to randomization is sometimes very... random.

    To the OP, Soren spelled it out pretty well above. If you're not including high level players, just about any game is usable. If it's a casual tournament, even random software awards don't really matter all that much. Just have fun.

    Also, I will vote the best random award in pinball is "Double or Nothing" in Vegas. Nothing quite like having rolled the game only to have a bullshit mystery award reset your points back to zero.

    #16 9 years ago
    Quoted from unigroove:

    Hadn't seen the PAPA list before, interesting. Too bad Bugs Bunny's Birthday Bash and Police Force are not in there.
    Personally, and I know that some tournament players won't agree with me, I feel that a pinball machine is designed in a certain way and should be played as such. If the tournament is to determine the best pinball player, that player should be able to play on any game and come out as the best. If that means you can steal on some games another player's locks, so be it as that's the way the game is designed. Pinball is pinball, I see no need for exeptions and it may spice things up as well

    The #1 consideration in tournaments is the length of time it takes to play a game. Games with things like lock stealing are used all the time, especially at Pinburgh.

    #21 9 years ago
    Quoted from PinballHelp:

    As others have said, some games are "one trick ponies" in tournament play. The way to score big points is to play a very specific way, often avoiding a majority of the game's features and ruleset (i.e. Fish Tales, where you can shoot the boat ramps over and over scoring more points more easily than getting multi-ball)

    In the grand scheme of pinball, very few games have multiple strategies that are equally viable from a competitive standpoint. That's not to say competition pinball is bad, because it will often put players into unique scoring situations that casual play could never do, but that's a different discussion... Scoring imbalances and in-depth rules knowledge are an inherent part of pinball that are only truly bad for competition if they take forever and bore everyone to death. Otherwise, repeatable shots / mode stacking / memorizing patterns are skills just the same as a post passes or dead bounces.

    If you want to beat Elwin, Bowen, Zach, Jorian or Cayle on No Fear, buckle up and get ready to shoot the jump ramp a minimum of 200 times. That's not really "exploiting" the rules so much as it's just playing the game and making risk vs reward decisions, which is essentially what every semi-modern ruleset ever made is based on in the first place.

    Also, not that it really matters, but Fish Tales is imbalanced because of the multiballs, not the monster fish. There's billions of points in that captive ball if you know where to look.

    #22 9 years ago
    Quoted from unigroove:

    I applaud you for that! I know players who strongly feel such games should not be in tournaments and expressed such concern to tournament directors. I was not referring to PAPA in regards to that. I also know of tournament players who don't want to play buy-in tournaments, but that has nothing to do with the games being used.

    I've had this conversation with a lot of players myself, and it's tricky because there's an endless supply of examples that can be mentioned making either side of the argument look both good and terrible. In the end, in my humble opinion, a major part of pinball is dealing with randomization, and that randomization doesn't go away just because it's a tournament setting versus an arcade. Are there extreme examples that I will avoid as a tournament director? Absolutely, but those are few and far between when compared to the many acceptable examples of randomization that players routinely ignore or accept as "part of the game".

    This issue comes up a lot in the TZ powerball discussion.

    #23 9 years ago
    Quoted from mhs:

    Scoring imbalances and in-depth rules knowledge are an inherent part of pinball that are only truly bad for competition if they take forever and bore everyone to death.

    I should clarify that I mean skillfully achieved scoring imbalances. The Fish Tales supers, for instance, are skillfully achieved. I don't mind this game in competition.

    TOTAN harem strategy is also skillfully achieved, but it will take 45 minutes per player to finish a game, which is death to an event.

    "Double your Score" or getting "swap scores with player 1" are egregious examples of non-skillful imbalances that are inappropriate for competition in all but casual settings.

    Most examples of lock stealing or not knowing what mode is coming up next in Wheel of Fortune is randomization that is an inherent part of pinball, and it doesn't bother me in the least as a director or competitive player.

    1 week later
    #66 9 years ago
    Quoted from Ruger:

    This caveat doesn't promote the growth of pinball.

    How many non-pinball people were exposed to pinball at PPO and FPO vs a residence tournament?

    In my experience, running events in public helps grow the game more than running them in private. This isn't to say some residence tournaments don't excel in many ways, but the caveat doesn't eliminate them either. The change encourages people to do more stuff outside of their homes for others to see / learn / experience, and that should grow the game in new areas and draw in new interest.

    #72 9 years ago
    Quoted from Ruger:

    I agree but why limit any area of promoting pinball? I know quite a few new players like myself that took it to the next level solely because of house tournaments. Going to PAPA is incredible but also a touch out of reality. I wasn't inspired to own games due to PAPA because it was just so big and awesome, nothing I could ever achieve. Going to my first house tournament was my inspiration to buy machines and host tournaments out of home since it was something I didn't even realize could be done, and it was equally awesome. But also, a majority of people I know the best that are non-local, I began meeting at house tournaments. You get a chance to know people in smaller groups. PAPA is now a huge extension of that, but to me at least it becomes more of a re-union with everyone I've met at smaller public and house tournaments.
    My opinion is that to grow pinball, every aspect or avenue should be taken, not just limited to a few big cities or geographical areas that have a large concentration of public venues. Eliminating one area (residence) of that growth doesn't automatically make the other areas (public) better.

    For the record, I agree with the vast majority of what you say here. We'll chat by e-mail.

    1 week later
    #180 9 years ago
    Quoted from SolarRide:

    There is one danger here with WPPR5.0. The data tracking commitment. This is what doomed PARS even though it was a mathematically fair system.

    PARS failed because the submission system was awful. If it was automated by the DTM software, which didn't exist at the time, PARS could have been twice as complex and fully functional. If WPPR 5.0 streamlines the bottleneck of entering data, it will be a big improvement in many ways.

    Entering one tournament for PARS required many, many lines of data in a very specific format all submitted as a text file. Something as simple as a typo could cause big headaches. WPPR 5.0 is a web-submission form, and from what I've seen, it doesn't even come close in complexity. Coming from someone who has seen the backend of both systems, the two don't compare with regard to simplicity.

    #181 9 years ago
    Quoted from mhs:

    If WPPR 5.0 streamlines the bottleneck of entering data, it will be a big improvement in many ways.

    PS... applause for brian

    #193 9 years ago
    Quoted from Replay:

    Will PAPA shift to five games each round in the finals to pick up those extra six games played for maximum points?

    No, but this will likely be the last year of only 16 qualifiers, but that's not really related to WPPR 5.0 so much as it's where we've been heading for a few events now.

    Div C this year will already be 24 qualifiers.

    1 week later
    #272 9 years ago

    Josh,

    How would a 1-ball tournament on Aquarius be rated if it included 86 people?

    What if I ran a 1-ball Aquarius tournament with Replogle every night for the next year, but half of them were best of three, and two thirds of the remaining half were bulls-eye-blind-style pingolf best of 9?

    Also, how is Trent #2 going to be affected by the ranking system? Will he still be top 25?

    Finally, when are you and Z landing?

    mhs

    #273 9 years ago
    Quoted from mhs:

    Josh,
    How would a 1-ball tournament on Aquarius be rated if it included 86 people?
    What if I ran a 1-ball Aquarius tournament with Replogle every night for the next year, but half of them were best of three, and two thirds of the remaining half were bulls-eye-blind-style pingolf best of 9?
    Also, how is Trent #2 going to be affected by the ranking system? Will he still be top 25?
    Finally, when are you and Z landing?
    mhs

    In all seriousness, the biggest thing I want to know is about Trent #2. He's my favorite player to follow rankings-wise.

    #275 9 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    Trent #2 has been on a roll lately. He would be ranked 23rd with 501.03 WPPR points.
    The sleepers are really Trent #3, #4 and #5 all of which are moving up the rankings at a record clip:
    Trent #3 - 298.19 WPPR points (ranked 109th)

    Will you let me know when Trent #3 cracks the top 100? He is now my new favorite.

    1 week later
    #284 9 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    Inside joke much?

    Not sure if you mean the different "Trent's" or something else, but just in case, it's not really an inside joke. Trent #2 is Augenstein's ranking after you eliminate his top 15 best WPPR scores. Trent #3 is his ranking after you eliminate his top 30 scores.

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