Quoted from The_Director:BBB is pretty high. I'd rather have one of these from this era instead for roughly the same price:
Yeah, you got the idea. 
(Topic ID: 45011)
Paradise, NV
Any pin that costs more than 75¢ per play with the exception of Stern's AC-DC LE and JJP's WoZ(with released code) which are worth $1.00 per play IMHO.
When pins were $865.00 NIB with "factory freight" to a distributor and tax in the price they were out of reach for lower-middle class families to purchase. We are returning to those times.
Quoted from Honch:Not when you consider the depreciation of those items in just a few years.
Buy to enjoy, not to worry about depreciation. Besides, a used Lexus at that price has already depreciated quite a bit. That's why I buy two-three yerar old German cars. They go for half the price of NICC (New in Car Carrier).
Quoted from Honch:Not when you consider the depreciation of those items in just a few years.
Pinball isn't an investment, and neither is high-end audio or cars.
Not sure why so many are saying that they'd rather have a sports car than pins. Been there, done that. I get way more use and enjoyment out of my pins than I did from my sports cars (that were driven pretty much only on weekends).
I see three answers to this question:
1) Any JPop game other than '94 WCS.
2) Any game that an operator can make money on 15-20 years after it was made (tAF, AfM and MM come immediately to mind)
3) Any game that someone geeks out on because only 127 were made or it has a limited edition run. Something that a "Collector" will stuff into a dark room and make sure no-one plays it until he needs money to buy another "Collector's prize" or get something for the stripper-wife.
Guess which part of the population has the most to do with the thing that people bitch about the most? That's right... us.
So when you are selling a game, consider who you are selling to and keep the price sane. If the person you sell to quick-flips that deal. You can understand and maybe even forgive them. But never take them seriously and with certainty, never do business with them ever again.
My $.02 on the matter.
Quoted from DrJoe:TRON LE because the pro plays virtually the same for less than half the cost.
This is also true of ACDC BIB or LTBR. Add a shaker to the Premium, and it plays exactly the same.
Same with S-M Black vs S-M red.
The difference is collectors who like holding high value, vs those who like playing.
But apart from these LE discrepancies, I feel the 16 year old B/W grail games offer much less in their fun to cost ratio. You pay for status.
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:Pinball isn't an investment, and neither is high-end audio or cars.
There is a difference between investment, value retention, and depreciation. It is not an either/or.
Pins in home use are not really an investment even though the current market is acting like they could be. They also do not depreciate in home use. Pinball, ideally, is a straight value retaining purchase.
A giant TV is a dramatic depreciator. So is a car.
It's also not realistic to call a $5,000 audio system a "basic home theater".
Quoted from RTS:But apart from these LE discrepancies, I feel the 16 year old B/W grail games offer much less in their fun to cost ratio. You pay for status.
I agree with this.
Perhaps there needs to be a "Buck for your Bang" ranking (not to be confused with the existing Bang for your Buck ranking). 
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:Pinball isn't an investment, and neither is high-end audio or cars.
Sure, but at least for myself, I have more money in pinballs than I'm comfortable with if I don't get a reasonable percentage out of them. The knowledge that they hold their value is what making buying them a possibility for all of us at their current prices.
Again, gotta differentiate here between an asset and an investment. Pinball is an asset unless you expect a specific return above the cost of acquisition and ownership. Investments return more than they cost. An asset retains its value.
Quoted from ChadTower:Again, gotta differentiate here between an asset and an investment. Pinball is an asset unless you expect a specific return above the cost of acquisition and ownership. Investments return more than they cost. An asset retains its value.
Investments sometimes return more than they cost.
Assets sometimes retain their value.
No guarantees on either.
Most machines will hold their value if you paid a fair price and didn't go apeshit modding them out and expect to get those costs back in your sale.
I don't mean to get off topic, but since the thread kind of went in this direction, I have a little story for you...
I recently went to the Texas Pinball Festival. One of us Pinsiders had for sale, a High Roller Casino for sale at a fair price. I looked up some Pinside forum posts about it from the past, and the price was in the ballpark. I ended up with some late money issues, but I learned a very valuable lesson that day. When the price is right, do it! A guy bought this machine, and he lives 30 minutes away from me. I was very excited to bump into him. I thought, hell I'll get to at least play it if he invites me over sometime, but in less than a week, he had the pin up for sale on craigslist for 61% more than what he bought it for.
This sickend me. Here I am thinking... If I had bought it, I'd be enjoying having a pin around the house to play at a fair price. All he saw was dollar signs.
The sad truth is... It's his pin... If he wants to make firewood out of it, it's his right to do so.
Sorry if this drifts away from the topic, but I guess I just had to get this out into the Pinside world... I've been pretty bummed about this for a few weeks now.
Thanks for reading.
Quoted from DrJoe:Investments sometimes return more than they cost.
Assets sometimes retain their value.
No guarantees on either.
Of course, but this conversation is not about potential return. It's about at least putting the games into the right financial category.
Quoted from tamoore:Big Bang Bar is right at the top of the list, it would seem.....
Quoted from tamoore:Big Bang Bar is right at the top of the list, it would seem.....
+1 BBB is by far the most overpriced game v. fun. As far as Capcom games go, I like Pinball Magic just as well for $10K less.
Quoted from ChadTower:It's also not realistic to call a $5,000 audio system a "basic home theater".
true... it's not even a "starter home theater"...
a set of speakers and a tv isn't a "home theater"...
Quoted from The_Director:Yeah, we're kind of all shooting each other in the foot letting these prices get out of control like they have. Every time you sell a game, just think -- is this fair to a fellow collector? Rather than, hmmm how much could I make off of this?
If that started happening more regularly, the pricing would stay under control, but everyone wants to make a little (or a lot) on every machine. To me, this is not a business, it's for fun. I'd rather buy and sell and make nothing on them and have reasonable prices, than make tons on my sells and have machines I like out of reach.
I know, I know --- supply and demand, the market speaks, blah blah. We've done it to ourselves though. Don't like the pricing? Quit buying long enough and it will go down, or everyone start pricing machines at "reasonable" prices not "market value".
If you look at how many of the most sought after pins were actually made for worldwide consumption, the numbers are very small. Just because 6,600 of a popular machine were manufactured doesn't mean there are that many left. How many have been junked, crushed or parted out? How many are still around in great condition? It is a market of increasing demand and diminishing supply, no wonder prices are going up--there is no where else for them to go but up. Even the second and third line machines will be pulled along for the ride.
Quoted from ChadTower:There is a difference between investment, value retention, and depreciation. It is not an either/or.
Pins in home use are not really an investment even though the current market is acting like they could be. They also do not depreciate in home use. Pinball, ideally, is a straight value retaining purchase.
A giant TV is a dramatic depreciator. So is a car.
It's also not realistic to call a $5,000 audio system a "basic home theater".
5,000? Is that how much BBB costs?
Anyway, I think you could get close to that and have a pretty decent HT.
Aperion Audio Intimus 5T Hybrid HD system = 2429.00
TV, some decent 55" = 1500.00
Emotiva UMC-200 processor = 600.00
Emotiva XPA-5 amp = 900.00
Some BluRay = 200.00
That's a pretty decent HT for like 5700.00, make it 6k with cables and stuff. Actually, more than decent...
Although, I might trade the subwoofer in that Aperion setup for a Rythmik Audio sub, they f'in rock!
Anyway, I think you could get close to that and have a pretty decent HT.
Aperion Audio Intimus 5T Hybrid HD system = 2429.00
TV, some decent 55" = 1500.00
Emotiva UMC-200 processor = 600.00
Emotiva XPA-5 amp = 900.00
Some BluRay = 200.00That's a pretty decent HT for like 5700.00, make it 6k with cables and stuff. Actually, more than decent...
That's not a Home Theater.
This is a home theater:
5,000? Is that how much BBB costs?
Anyway, I think you could get close to that and have a pretty decent HT.
Aperion Audio Intimus 5T Hybrid HD system = 2429.00
TV, some decent 55" = 1500.00
Emotiva UMC-200 processor = 600.00
Emotiva XPA-5 amp = 900.00
Some BluRay = 200.00
That's a pretty decent HT for like 5700.00, make it 6k with cables and stuff. Actually, more than decent...
Although, I might trade the subwoofer in that Aperion setup for a Rythmik Audio sub, they f'in rock!
not even close... a "home theater" starts with a dedicated room with one of these in it... 
edit: rob beat me to it...
Yeah, well, I think you'd be surprised. Substitute a 1500 plasma for a 1500 projector like you have. I have a dedicated room, with a 65" plasma, I just sit closer than you do to your screen, it's of relative size, but I guarantee the picture is better than yours.
Leather seats and a projector do not make a home theater. It's the AV quality that makes a home theater, and I'd put mine up against yours any day.
Quoted from The_Director:Yeah, we're kind of all shooting each other in the foot letting these prices get out of control like they have. Every time you sell a game, just think -- is this fair to a fellow collector? Rather than, hmmm how much could I make off of this?
If that started happening more regularly, the pricing would stay under control, but everyone wants to make a little (or a lot) on every machine. To me, this is not a business, it's for fun. I'd rather buy and sell and make nothing on them and have reasonable prices, than make tons on my sells and have machines I like out of reach.
I know, I know --- supply and demand, the market speaks, blah blah. We've done it to ourselves though. Don't like the pricing? Quit buying long enough and it will go down, or everyone start pricing machines at "reasonable" prices not "market value".
So true! Some food for thought right here...!
Quoted from Rick471:I would put up my projector against a plasma any day. The technology has made leaps and bounds
I work with this stuff everyday, there is no way in hell a projector will ever beat a direct view television, ever. Especially a TV as fine as a Panasonic VT series, best digital picture I've ever seen.
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:Yeah, well, I think you'd be surprised. Substitute a 1500 plasma for a 1500 projector like you have. I have a dedicated room, with a 65" plasma, I just sit closer than you do to your screen, it's of relative size, but I guarantee the picture is better than yours.
Leather seats and a projector do not make a home theater. It's the AV quality that makes a home theater, and I'd put mine up against yours any day.
Quoted from Astropin:You boys going to whip them out an measure next or what?
lol, no i'd be afraid of losing there, so i compensate with my toys... 
I'm not a big fan of front projection (for my home).
I cannot stand to watch anything DLP either. LCD or LCOS is all I can handle. DLP looks like someone fed me acid if I look left or right. I'm reeeeeally sensitive to those so called impossible to see artifacts.
Sharp has a 90" LED in stores today so I speculate a 100" is very near
100" is fantastic & to never worry about light pollution, throw or bulbs is a significant plus to me.
I think it's all neat though. Dedicated rooms with mega FP screens & media corners in the basement... All good stuff!
Quoted from Rick471:I would put up my projector against a plasma any day. The technology has made leaps and bounds
realistically, my kuro (which is not to be confused with a $1500 display) has "better" pq than my pj (which i wish only cost $1500, heck i wish the screen had only cost $1500); when properly calibrated, the kuro's black levels set it apart from everything else... thats a kuro though, not the, umm, somewhat less than optimal displays that are sold today... additionally, 110" beats 60" with a huge stick, even at my 10 foot viewing distance...
sorry for the ot digression, back to your normally scheduled "discussion"...
Fun is relative. So to answer the OP question "What games are grossly overpriced relative to fun now?" the answer would have to be any game not released yet. So anyone doing a "Pre-Order" fall into that catagory.
Quoted from ccotenj:realistically, my kuro (which is not to be confused with a $1500 display) has "better" pq than my pj (which i wish only cost $1500, heck i wish the screen had only cost $1500); when properly calibrated, the kuro's black levels set it apart from everything else... thats a kuro though, not the, umm, somewhat less than optimal displays that are sold today... additionally, 110" beats 60" with a huge stick, even at my 10 foot viewing distance...
sorry for the ot digression, back to your normally scheduled "discussion"...
Agreed. I have 3 60" elte kuros. They best anything out today. My home theater runs a jvc rs-35 which cost $8000 2 years ago in a totally black and light controlled room. Screen is 135" and in the properly controlled room the colors are close. But the kuros still beat it.
http://thebigboss.org/theater/theater.html
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:Yeah, I get it, you spent way too much on your system and now you regret it. It's ok...
Dude, you have no clue and are talking out of your butt.
I don't care if you work at a Best Buy.
Quoted from markmon:Agreed. I have 3 60" elte kuros. They best anything out today. My home theater runs a jvc rs-35 which cost $8000 2 years ago in a totally black and light controlled room. Screen is 135" and in the properly controlled room the colors are close. But the kuros still beat it.
http://thebigboss.org/theater/theater.html
Linky no worky
Quoted from RobT:Dude, you have no clue and are talking out of your butt.
I don't care if you work at a Best Buy.Linky no worky
Nope, I put in multi-million dollar stadium video systems, you know, like the sports you watch on TV, that kind of stuff (well, not me personally, I'm a programmer, but our company does so I see this stuff everyday). Now I'm sure your system is very nice, but that doesn't mean others can't have very nice systems for 6k. If you think that having a projector and theater seating is what makes a home theater, then so be it, but many hundreds of thousands of people disagree, and I'm one of them.
Technology advances and manufacturing processes have made displays and audio gear that are better than product purchased even two years ago, for 1/2 the price. Sure, there are the classics that always stand the test of time like Mark Levinson amplifiers, old school Yamaha M50's etc, but you CAN buy amplifiers that are very nice for an affordable price.
I'd say the new Panasonic plasmas are better televisions that the Kuro, I have the 65VT30 and it's very nice, I'd say almost as nice as Kuro too even though it's almost two years old now. And not a 1500 screen either..
Anyway, my answer to the question was BBB and said that I would rather have a basic theater for that, somehow it got to BBB cost 5k, when in fact it's more like 20k these days. So, a basic home theater for 20k is what I really said...but, a very decent one can be had for 6k.
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:I'd say the new Panasonic plasmas are better televisions that the Kuro,
I also have a Panasonic Plasma 65" set. Super nice picture. But in terms of trying to duplicate the theater experience, it doesn't hold a candle to my 9 foot wide screen in my HT. And sitting closer doesn't change that fact.
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