(Topic ID: 188882)

What did I fry! BSD is sick! Solved!!!!


By cyroute

2 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 38 posts
  • 12 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by terryb
  • Topic is favorited by 5 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 10 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

D3 to PDB.jpg
20170519_164113 (1) (resized).jpg
24  long-beam opto.jpg
IMG_1489.PNG
20170518_160234 (resized).jpg
BSD-Switch-Matrix (resized).jpg
20170513_184209 (resized).jpg
20170513_184219 (resized).jpg
20170512_155707 (resized).jpg
20170512_155437 (resized).jpg

#1 2 years ago

I was getting a bunch of switch errors on one column and everything I read it seemed to be related to the U20 chip. I replaced that chip but when I put the board back in I connected the ribbon cable from the mpu to the driver board off by a row now I’m getting additional magnet right magnet left and magnet unload errors. I took the mpu out replaced U20 again and connected the ribbon cable correctly this time but still have all the same switch errors. When I go into the switch test if I put my finger in the left mist ball holder it fires the right jet but none of the switches in that column register when i touch them. Not sure where to start at this point.
Thanks,
Joe

20170512_155437 (resized).jpg
20170512_155707 (resized).jpg

#2 2 years ago

I am assuming U20 is the 2803. I am thinking you have an LM339 issue. There should be 2 between the connectors and U-20. Looking it up, be right back.

Looks like U18. But this is still a pot shot on a day off with a beer in my hand. So I hope to get confirmation from other sources.

Also, I hope you are putting in sockets.

#3 2 years ago

You have several not used switches in column 7 showing as closed and probably others, but I didn't check them all. So you have several issues going on. I doubt if the ribbon cable being off by one pin would have damaged the switch matrix, though it could have damaged other circuits.

Take all of the balls out of the game and check which switches are showing closed. If any are closed that shouldn't be note them down (please use switch numbers rather than descriptions). Then go through and check all switches and note any that don't work.

Also please provide hi-res, in-focus photos of both sides of U20.

I would not suspect the LM339's at this point unless you're having row issues that you did not mention.

Unfortunately I'm not having a beer.

#4 2 years ago

Sorry, did not mean to mislead. I did not examine the switch map but just quickly read right pop and left magnet and thought row 1.

Also the last 3 of 5 switch matrix fixes for me where LM339 issues so it is stuck in my brain.

#5 2 years ago
Quoted from terryb:

You have several not used switches in column 7 showing as closed and probably others, but I didn't check them all. So you have several issues going on. I doubt if the ribbon cable being off by one pin would have damaged the switch matrix, though it could have damaged other circuits.
Take all of the balls out of the game and check which switches are showing closed. If any are closed that shouldn't be note them down (please use switch numbers rather than descriptions). Then go through and check all switches and note any that don't work.
Also please provide hi-res, in-focus photos of both sides of U20.
I would not suspect the LM339's at this point unless you're having row issues that you did not mention.
Unfortunately I'm not having a beer.

TerryB I documented all the closed switches they are 24, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 61 ,62, 63, 64, 65 , 66, 67, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75 , 76, 77, 81, 82, and 87. The switches that dont work are all on column 6 I think some of the closed switches are opto's so they should be closed but 61, 62 , 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68 are all on column 6. A little history this game worked fine for a game or two I turned it off came back to it about 15 min later and was getting the column 6 switch errors that is when I reseated the cables and then started getting the other errors after i put the driver/mpu ribbon cable on wrong. All the chips on the mpu were soketed prior to me owning it. This game has been rock solid for almost 3 years. I have replaced the U20 now 2 times once when i researched the switch errors and after I noticed the ribbon cable being off. The ribbon cable was all the way off on a full row see pic above I have a feeling this might have caused the magnet errors i am getting along with the column 6 errors because I did'nt notice those before i messed up putting the cable on.

20170513_184219 (resized).jpg

20170513_184209 (resized).jpg

#6 2 years ago

As near as I can tell the solder joints look ok, but an in-focus photo would help greatly.

On the closed switches. Switch 24 is always closed and the optos should be closed. One drop target was probably down and the other two switches in column 8 probably relate to your magnet errors. So we're left with 61-67 and 74-77 showing closed when they shouldn't (although the problem could be with 71-77, can't tell at this point). What's interesting is that 68 and 78 don't show as closed (and we know that at least 78 does work so it's not a row issue). A failure on U20 would cause a problem with the entire column, not just part of the column.

Therefore I would suspect a failure with U14. If one of the address lines is problematic you can get weird problems like this. If that chip is socketed I would pop in a new one. If not a logic probe would help. Do you have one?

Let me know on the logic probe and then we can come up with a plan of attack.

BSD-Switch-Matrix (resized).jpg

Edit: Now that I think about it this may be a row problem rather than a column problem (excluding column 6 issues of course). In any case, go ahead with what I mentioned above and let me think about the row thing a little bit more. We have the same issue on the rows that the entire row is not being affected.

#7 2 years ago

One more thing since the ribbon cable was reversed. Pull the ribbon cable from the cpu to the pdb and J212 and see if the problems still exist. I doubt that's your issue since only columns 1-3 and rows 1-4 go to the pdb, but let's make sure.

After that test pull the column connector and see if you still get the same switches incorrectly showing as closed.

#8 2 years ago

I ordered the U14 chip it is socketed. I didnt have any on hand should be here this week. Will keep you updated. I also ordered some LM339N chips just incase they were cheap.
Thanks,
Joe

#9 2 years ago

I wouldn't replace U14 until we do more troubleshooting. I would though add some 74LS240 to your order.

Do you have a logic probe?

#10 2 years ago

I don't have a logic probe... i guess its time to buy one which would you recomend from amazon?

#11 2 years ago

Sockets. Put sockets in when you pull a chip. This will eliminate damage to the board if you have to replace again due to another problem causing the first chip to fail. Every time you put a soldering iron to the board you risk lifting a trace. It will also eliminate heat on the new chip and make replacement a snap if you got the orientation wrong.

#12 2 years ago
Quoted from cyroute:

I don't have a logic probe... i guess its time to buy one which would you recomend from amazon?

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/terrybs-guide-to-logic-probes

#13 2 years ago

Thanks for the link... all the chips that i think we would need to replace are already socketed u14 to u20

#14 2 years ago
Quoted from terryb:

One more thing since the ribbon cable was reversed. Pull the ribbon cable from the cpu to the pdb and J212 and see if the problems still exist. I doubt that's your issue since only columns 1-3 and rows 1-4 go to the pdb, but let's make sure.
After that test pull the column connector and see if you still get the same switches incorrectly showing as closed.

#15 2 years ago

Terry I did the above test and nothing changed. Since I was getting the opto related errors too I decided to diconnect the opto board under the playfield and that made all the column 6 switch errors go away and the switches started to work. Can the opto board cause issues with the switch matrix? Not sure where to go from here I didnt get the logic probe yet.
Joe

#16 2 years ago
Quoted from cyroute:

Can the opto board cause issues with the switch matrix?

Yes. If a LM339 on the 10 SW opto board goes bad it can mess up the switch matrix. If I remember correctly there's a photo-transistor on the 24 SW board that can do the same thing.

Quoted from cyroute:

Since I was getting the opto related errors too I decided to diconnect the opto board under the playfield and that made all the column 6 switch errors go away and the switches started to work.

Did that make the false switch closures go away?

#17 2 years ago

It does look like the false closures went away. It looks like R4 on the 24 optoboard is fried so now im not sure which is causing the problem maybe both have issues? I know you can buy the 10 opto board but the 24 isnt in stock anywhere. should i try to repair these since i have the lm339's on order i guess i need to replace R4 first.

20170518_160234 (resized).jpg

#18 2 years ago

do i see some battery damage on the holder?

#19 2 years ago

I'd think you've got nothing to lose by changing out R4 first and trying it out. Probably best to get confirmation from a pro, but it would seem like the best place to start.

Edit: have you checked R4 with a dmm?

#20 2 years ago

R4 is coming back as 2.26k ohms not sure what its supposed to read.

#21 2 years ago
Quoted from cyroute:

R4 is coming back as 2.26k ohms not sure what its supposed to read.

10 ohms.

IMG_1489.PNG

#22 2 years ago

Seeing the schematics, capacitor C7 is the 1st to suspect.
24 long-beam opto.jpg

#23 2 years ago
Quoted from zaza:

Seeing the schematics, capacitor C7 is the 1st to suspect.

You can check across C7 for a short with your DMM. Also check D1 since it could have also been overloaded.

In regards to the switch problems you can test the LM399's on the 10 SW opto board. On U1, U2 and U3 check pins 2 and 13 for a short to ground.

#24 2 years ago
Quoted from terryb:

You can check across C7 for a short with your DMM. Also check D1 since it could have also been overloaded.
In regards to the switch problems you can test the LM399's on the 10 SW opto board. On U1, U2 and U3 check pins 2 and 13 for a short to ground.

Looks like d1 is good i get number like.542 on one side and nothing on the other side. How do I check the pins on the U chips for the short to ground? I think the caps are good if i did the test right.

#25 2 years ago
Quoted from cyroute:

How do I check the pins on the U chips for the short to ground?

Meter in ohms or diode/continuity, one lead on the pin I noted and the other on ground on the board. This is not a definitive test, but can often catch a problem.

#26 2 years ago

ok looks like those chips are ok no shorts to ground. inspecting the bigger opto board i noticed some liquid on the board right near c1 not sure if the cap leaked but here is a picture there wasnt much there and it was to the right of the cap with a very little line of it going to the cap you can see it right above the 2nd 3rd and 4th diode

20170519_164113 (1) (resized).jpg

#27 2 years ago

Hard to tell, but if in doubt I'd replace it.

Quoted from cyroute:

ok looks like those chips are ok no shorts to ground.

Unfortunately it doesn't guarantee they're good.

#28 2 years ago

yeah i think i will replace them a buddy of mine is good at board repair so he will socket them out for me I have plenty of the 339's and lots of caps on order now. i hope BSD will be back up and running early next week!

#29 2 years ago

Just an update I got sent the wrong chips to replace the lm339 chips and i have not gotten the caps yet but I was able to borrow the two opto boards from a friend who just bought a project bsd. All my opto errors went away but i am getting load and unload errors and the right ramp error still. I noticed that i now have lamps out on the playfield and my right jet is not working neither is the ramp coil in test or in the game and the mist motor is not running at all. I checked all the fuses they are fine. I think maybe putting the ribbon cable on wrong at the beginning might have caused an issue with the driver board unless someone still thinks this may be a MPU issue. my next step was going to be swapping the driver board from my world cup soccer into bsd to see what happens.

#30 2 years ago

Right Jet, R.Ramp Down, Mist motor are driven by the same data-line.

Quoted from cyroute:

i now have lamps out on the playfield

If you can confirm that lamps on Row4 and Column4 in the matrix are not working, it points to a single missing data-line.

That can be caused by a bad ribbon cable but also a damaged trace on powerdriver or a failing data-driver on CPU-board (U12)

-with machine 'OFF' and ribboncable installed, measure continuity from CPU U12-18 to (e.g.) PDB U4-17.

when you have NO continuity between these point, try to find out where it stops. You can remove ribboncable and measure to pin J113-23.
If you DO have continuity, CPU-board U12 is likely bad.

D3 to PDB.jpg

#31 2 years ago

I can tell you for sure that it is the lamps in column4 that are not working not sure about the row 4. I will do the test tonight when I get home. Thanks!
Joe

#32 2 years ago

Well the issue ended up being the ribbon cable I did the test first and everything came back fine. So I said what the heck let me put World Cup Soccer's ribbon cable on BSD and everything started working. Still have to make sure the opto boards work when i get the rest of the parts but at least i know everything else is working. Thanks for everyone's help!!!
Joe

#33 2 years ago

For a next time you can use the following quick test: take the ribbon cable between cpu and powerboard and disconnect it. Now rotate it 180 degrees (important: this must be done counter clockwise ) and put it back. Other problems? Then you know where to look.

#34 2 years ago
Quoted from HarrieD:

For a next time you can use the following quick test: take the ribbon cable between cpu and powerboard and disconnect it. Now rotate it 180 degrees (important: this must be done counter clockwise ) and put it back. Other problems? Then you know where to look.

Can you explain why rotating the ribbon cable is a good test?

#35 2 years ago
Quoted from RonaldRayGun:

Can you explain why rotating the ribbon cable is a good test?

+1, I'd like to know as well please.

#36 2 years ago
Quoted from RonaldRayGun:

Can you explain why rotating the ribbon cable is a good test?

The wires in a ribbon cable carry different signals. Rotating the connectors on both ends 180 degrees means different wires are now carrying each signal. If your symptoms change it's likely one or more parts of the cable are bad.

#37 2 years ago

Can u do a point to point continually test on these ribbon cables?

#38 2 years ago
Quoted from MotorCityMatt:

Can u do a point to point continually test on these ribbon cables?

Yes. You'll need a very fine probe or a small paper clip. Just be careful not to damage the female pins by using too large a probe.

Pinballlife sells a ribbon cable connector that is kind of handy.

http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=4069

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
€ 95.00
Lighting - Led
FlipperLED
$ 9.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
From: $ 24.99
Lighting - Led
Lee's Parts

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside