(Topic ID: 29581)

What causes LED Ghosting?

By Pafasa

11 years ago


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Topic Stats

  • 19 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 11 years ago by herg
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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    #1 11 years ago

    Curious what causes the ghosting in led's and if there is anything that can be done other than buying "non ghosting" led's which in my limited experience do not correct the ghosting problem.

    -1
    #2 11 years ago

    The non ghosting LEDs absolutely correct the ghosting issue. Perhaps youre definition of ghosting differs from what ghosting is. Ghosting is when one bulb is on but other inserts appear to be partially on as well. Perhaps you should explain your problem better with details?

    #3 11 years ago

    Depends on the LED.

    I think the ones from cointaker turn on if there's 4 or more volts present.

    I had the same problem, some talked to Chris @ CT that's how I found out.

    If there's 4+ volts present, it will be on.

    Check it with your dmm...

    -1
    #4 11 years ago

    That's the ghosting I am talking about. I have a firepower and didn't think it would be an issue with cointaker super leds. Is there anything else I can do besides buying cointaker premiums?

    #5 11 years ago

    Check the voltage first.

    If you see 4 or more, don't bother as even the non-ghosting LEDs will have the same problem.

    For me it wasn't a big deal, I put them in an allied leisure pin and i kind of liked the way it looked with the lamps on all the time.

    Purists would hate it, but I think it enhanced the look of an otherwise dull playfield.

    Give cointaker a call, they know their stuff.

    #6 11 years ago

    I've heard of some lamp driver board designed for LED's. Anyone else heard of this?

    #7 11 years ago

    I agree that Cointaker knows their stuff. Dealt directly with Chris and Melissa at Expo to buy my Firepower kit. They were great to deal with and allowed me to switch out some lamps on the spot for different colors. Definitely will do more business with them!

    #8 11 years ago

    not sure if it works or not, but i have read that updating the game to the most current roms may help.

    #9 11 years ago

    Even on firepower? I would like to know how to do the rom conversion that allows the game to run on one chip.

    #10 11 years ago

    not sure on firepower, but there are roms available on ipdb. i will be getting updated roms for my addams family soon since i got the color dmd for it and i need the most current version. hope it knocks out the ghosting on the few lights that do

    #11 11 years ago

    good luck! Hope so too. Friend of mine just put Color DMD in his TAF. I haven't seen it yet, but he is raving about it. Was playing FT the other day and thought this would be a great candidate for Color DMD!

    #12 11 years ago

    good luck to you also. got the color dmd in my afm, looks awesome. i really hope they do monster bash next, will get that one for sure. got rid of ft with a couple others to get the afm, maybe i will get one again....

    #13 11 years ago

    There are two main causes of LED ghosting. The first is a timing issue that is corrected in the updated ROMs. This fix is only available for WPC games.

    The second cause is current leakage through the transistors. They have something like a storage effect that causes them to allow current to continue flowing after they have been turned off. This most commonly happens when you have high current (like a double bulb situation) in the same row as an LED. My Monster Bash showed this problem really bad with incandescents in the Wolfman moon insert causing ghosting on the LEDs in the instruments. This was even with the ROMs with the fix.

    I have created a board that solves this and other problems with LEDs, and there's a thread here:
    http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/my-current-project-led-lamp-controller

    Don't get your hopes up too much, though. It's only been tested with WPC games so far.

    #14 11 years ago

    Might want to check that you actually got the non-ghosting.....I did not when we ordered.....hells yeah the color dmd look bad ass, I want monster bash too! Or scared stiff would be cool too!

    #15 11 years ago

    There is a ROM patch which will fix most ghosting issues on a WPC pin. Not sure if just using the most updated Roms will fix some pins ghosting. I know it didn't on the ones I owned.
    My Corvette has 3 lamps which still light up even with GBs. The funny thing is this only occurs during the skill shot. I will check out that lamp controller. Thanks.

    #16 11 years ago
    Quoted from herg:

    There are two main causes of LED ghosting. The first is a timing issue that is corrected in the updated ROMs. This fix is only available for WPC games.
    The second cause is current leakage through the transistors. They have something like a storage effect that causes them to allow current to continue flowing after they have been turned off. This most commonly happens when you have high current (like a double bulb situation) in the same row as an LED. My Monster Bash showed this problem really bad with incandescents in the Wolfman moon insert causing ghosting on the LEDs in the instruments. This was even with the ROMs with the fix.
    I have created a board that solves this and other problems with LEDs, and there's a thread here:http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/my-current-project-led-lamp-controller
    Don't get your hopes up too much, though. It's only been tested with WPC games so far.

    Herg, put me down to be a Stern guinea pig when you are ready.

    #17 11 years ago
    Quoted from RC_like_the_cola:

    Herg, put me down to be a Stern guinea pig when you are ready.

    You're already on the list, and once I can get some of the WPC ones shipped, I plan to start working on one in my Tron. Please, though, if you have comments on LED OCD, post them to the LED OCD thread to keep from hijacking this one.

    #18 11 years ago

    Thanks Herg, Thats what i was looking for. In my system 6 Firepower, the problem is likely in the driver board transistors. I doubt anyone is going to rewrite code for the controlled lamps on this machine to fix timing if that would even be the cause. So, for what I take from your post is that there is an "on" and "off" state coming from the driver board but it is not necessarily 5VDC and 0VDC. More like 5VDC and some VDC that is below 5 but sometimes not enough to completely shut off the LED. Is there some voltage value at which the LED WILL NOT turn on?

    #19 11 years ago

    It gets pretty complicated pretty quick. When you look at the lamp voltage with a multimeter, you're just seeing the average voltage. What's actually happening is the 18VDC source is being turned on and off lots of times a second.

    Looking at it with an oscilloscope, you can see that when the controlling signal tries to turn a column off, it takes a while before it actually happens. The green line is the transistor output, and the yellow line is the controlling signal.

    First, you can see a delay from when the input (yellow) goes high to when the output (green) goes low. Second, notice that the output doesn't actually go all the way to 0V. It decays off over time, and the amount of time this takes is dependent on multiple factors. This is happening on BOTH the column and row side of each lamp.

    column_uln_output_and_tip107_output.jpgcolumn_uln_output_and_tip107_output.jpg

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