(Topic ID: 158743)

what can I do if machine is not as described?


By i_b_flippin

3 years ago



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#1 3 years ago

Hello, I'm a first time buyer but I've reading this forum for few months before I decided to buy one. I was referred to Rob at Rockland pinball.I told him I'm a new buyer looking for first game and He told me that he had a nice shadow for sale and told me only thing wrong was it had some scuffs on the backbox and cabinet but playfield was in excellent condition but few plastics were broken. Price was $3200 so I assumed that it was a real nice example. I told him I didn't really mind few scuffs on cabinet as long as playfield was in excellent condition.

The machine arrived yesterday and the machine is players grade at best. The cabinet has chunks missing at different spots and has about 20 holes on the right side of the cabinet. Came with 3 leg levelers and the backbox has wires just soldered on to the board without connectors. Most of the fuses were fastblow. The playfield has tiny hole that looks like somebody try to drill from underneath and went to far. It also has some planking right next to it.

I was extremely pissed off but i thought maybe if I played few games I would feel better about the machine. Guess what? I can't even play the damn machine. The screen is all jumbled up and I can't make out anything. I pressed the start button after installing the balls and it kicked out all the balls at once and the battlefield flipper went off by itself about 20times before everything shut off and came back on by itself. So it's just sitting with fucked screen and no way to play it. And I'm not tech savy so don't want to touch it to make it even worse. But for what i paid for the title, my friends tell me I should have very nice Shadow or at least a working fucking machine.

I don't know what I can do since this is my first purchase hence asking for advice before I decide on what to do or how to go on about doing it. Any advice would be sincerely appreciated.

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#2 3 years ago

Usually if the machine is as described, then you know what you are getting ahead of time.

14
#3 3 years ago

That sucks man. Sorry to hear. Next time do not get a game you haven't seen or played in person first. Shipping games is always opening yourself up for something like this unless you're certain you're dealing with a trustworthy seller.

Did you try and follow up with the seller to get explanations on why the game was unplayable when you got it? Hell it didn't even have all the leg levelers.

#4 3 years ago

Ouch, return quickly if possible

#5 3 years ago

No good answer here - hacked up boards add insult to injury. I would try to re-seat whatever isn't soldered together - hopefully something is just loose -

#6 3 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

Usually if the machine is as described, then you know what you are getting ahead of time.

Kinda had me confused for a second too.

OP, may want to edit to "isn't"

#7 3 years ago

Shooter lane looks nice ..

#8 3 years ago

Did you contact Rob? He is on this site and I bought a whitewater from him. He sent me all the pics that I needed to make up my mind. I did have to fix some minor issues after shipping but I was very pleased with the machine and his communication.

#9 3 years ago

Did you get pictures ahead of time? So you had the game shipped to you from NY? I would contact Rob, and explain the situation, see what he can do to help you out. You can get new head decals for the game, and it is possible the game got banged around in shipping, it is not uncommon for issues like that to happen after a game has been shipped, as stated, reseat every connector that you can on the boards, make sure the ribbon cables are on correctly, it is easy to miss a row, and check all fuses with a meter, if possible, take a meter to the voltage test points on the big driver board in the bottom right corner, see if your getting your 5V, 12V, etc..

Hope it works out for you.

#10 3 years ago

Have you contacted them? Maybe the wrong machine was sent? Did you look at pictures before you bought the machine? Do they not match up? Was the communication prior to purchasing verbal or written?

#11 3 years ago

Check ribbon cables and reset them. As far as the other cabinet damage, pictures should have easily revealed that kind if wear. If he took them in a way to hide the gouges that's really not cool, I'd be pissed too.

#12 3 years ago

If you payed for goods or services via paypal you should be covered.

#13 3 years ago

Try reseating the ribbon cables on the boards. It will most likely get the game playing. It probably happened during shipping. It has happened to me more than once just driving a game home . I had the same problem when I bought my shadow and I played it right before I bought it.

You always need pictures of everything if you are at all picky when buying from a distance.

#14 3 years ago

Welcome to pinball ownership (in other words, get ready to fix shit). All sarcasm aside though, that sucks and it's sad to hear that you got this on a first time buy. For that price, a "nice" Shadow wouldn't have broken plastics and board hacks like that. The DMD being scrambled is probably just connectors - the rest is a subjective interpretation of cosmetic details. But still. Hope you get it worked out. Don't give up and be disappointed. It will be a fun game when you get stuff sorted out.

#15 3 years ago

Snake bit. Happened to me once too, and assume many others as well. Once it happens, most make a resolution to only buy games that they have seen/played in person. In fact I only buy games that I can pick up... no shipping. Then you switch to NIB because it's only a little more and you most always don't see this crap. I agree with Centerflank. Return it, if possible. Otherwise, take your lumps. New boards and decals might cost a bit, but it is fixable and a great title to fix.You might be a little upside down for a while, but play it, have fun and you won't mind. Easy to be pissed, and you should be, but see past this.

#16 3 years ago

Anything can be fixed, but at that price it should have been better.

#17 3 years ago

Welcome to the sickness (hobby) get lots of pics, only buy from good people. Private collectors seem to be more honest than flippers. See games in person, and remember shit comes loose in transit. Even if you haul it yourself. Video games are the worst. Good luck, now dive right in and fix that shadow right up.

#18 3 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

Anything can be fixed, but at that price it should have been better.

Yeah, the board/DMD issues are probably easy to solve but the cabinet chunk outs would bother me a lot for the price point.

#19 3 years ago

And don't feel bad we all have probable overpaid for a game in the beginning. It's all part of the learning curve. You will probably break some stuff as you try to fix stuff as well. Enjoy yourself during all the various levels of this thing we do

#20 3 years ago

this is why you should never buy a game you haven't played and inspected in person!

14
#21 3 years ago

also, in my opinion, buying games from private collectors is a better route than buying from retailers.

most of us baby our games, and while a game is in a private collection, it will likely have all the bugs and problems ironed out over time. then when we decide to sell, most of us are just trying to get back something close to what we put into it.

a retailer's process is different. they have the game for a short time, fix the most obvious problems in the most time-efficient way possible, and then they have to turn a profit on it.

#22 3 years ago
Quoted from pezpunk:

this is why you should never buy a game you haven't played and inspected in person!

I buy and sell games all the time that I haven't inspected and it always seems to work out. Many others can say the same thing.

Sometimes it's the best way to do it.

#23 3 years ago

This is exactly why I drive 5+ hours each way to see a game before dropping money. I'd be pissed too - especially the soldered wires on the connector. Wow, someone really has no conscience.

#24 3 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I buy and sell games all the time that I haven't inspected and it always seems to work out. Many others can say the same thing.
Sometimes it's the best way to do it.

you are also much more experienced and much more connected in the pinball world than this guy is. my advice wasn't geared towards folks who have bought / sold / traded hundreds of games.

#25 3 years ago

Assuming your version of the story is above water, many things an experienced owner/seller would notice were clearly omitted and you got ripped off. Looks to me like a $2000 Shadow, maybe less if the board hacks are super bad. It pains me to see this happen to someone on their first purchase. Like others have said, it's always best to see with your own eyes and be ready to walk away if need be. If a pin must be shipped, get LOTS of closeups, seller references and preferably a below-market price to offset the risk. Buying used pins gets much easier once you have more experience and more contacts. With the big runup in used pin prices, I'm buying more new than used these days. Modern Sterns are a pretty safe bet as well and tend to be very reliable. Anything 20+ years old is more of a crapshoot. Hopefully you are able to work this out with the seller.

#26 3 years ago

Eat the shipping and just return it. Sounds like you will not be happy, and I don't blame you, so consider it a lesson learned.

#27 3 years ago
Quoted from tacshose:

Eat the shipping and just return it. Sounds like you will not be happy, and I don't blame you, so consider it a lesson learned.

Would you really eat $800 shipping on this deal?!

It's not good money after bad to get this game fixed up, which is really the best option. And I wouldn't be surprised if the seller would be willing to help out a little - The buyer isn't happy obviously but it would have been a good idea for him to contact the seller and try to work something out first in my opinion.

#28 3 years ago

Rockland Pinball has a $2800 Shadow in the Northeast US for sale thread. Maybe they shipped you the wrong one. If not, I would hate to see what the $2800 one looks like.

#29 3 years ago

having dealt with Rob myself 3 or 4 times, I am surprised by your situation. I would contact him and go over your issues.

#30 3 years ago

I would defame the shit out of the outfit that you bought it from if your story is accurate...don't let them screw the next guy. Did you get pics before purchasing?

17
#31 3 years ago

First things first - contact the seller. The game recieved does not match the description by a longshot. This is not a simple matter of difference of opinion or one little thing not matching description.

Start out being nice. Coming right out of the gate, fangs beared, torches lit with pitchforks isn't gonna make the guy want to deal with you!

While it seems impossible, it could be a simple mistake - I've been in operations before where there were more than 1 of a title. The owners employees could have theoretically shipped one of his other shadows!

There are also a few operations out there where a seller buys a machine online from someone else and has it drop shipped to their customer. It's possible he never saw this machine.

Give the guy the benefit of the doubt and a chance to make it right somehow. With some of the vouchers here, it sounds like the seller is a trustworthy seller.

If he doesn't, you always have the ability to take the deal to court. I would not do anything to this machine, and get lots of good photos and maybe even video of what you recieved. Also, if you paid with plastic, you may be able to file a dispute.

Don't totally lose faith. Worse case scenario, pinsiders help you shine it up and fix it

#32 3 years ago

f'n retailers . i would sent that right back .

-17
#33 3 years ago

That's a 20 year old machine.. It's got some scuffs on it, big deal? if pictures were sent hiding damage that's one thing.. But you can't assume that because someone priced something a certain way that it's in pristine condition. That Playfield divot is caused by a screw coming through from the bottom -- someone relaced a screw with one that was a little long.

You got a players shadow and paid a little extra for it. Reseat the ribbon cables and play some shadow. You have to expect issues with older games and commit to fixing them and learning or paying someone else a lot to fix them for you. If you want less issues, spend the extra cash on a newer pin.

#34 3 years ago

Folks, let's tap on the brakes a little bit on this one. Advice has been requested and given, so let's wait for the OP to contact the seller and/or for the seller to respond before we drag out more of the torches and pitchforks.

From what I understand, Rob is a stand-up guy who has a good reputation as a seller with many happy customers.

If everything the OP says is true, hopefully this is somehow just a mix-up.

#35 3 years ago

Thanks everyone for your advice and support. Does anyone know what he goes by on pinside? I tried reseating all the cables but still no go. I wouldn't even be mad if he told me the machine was players grade but obviously I wouldn't have bought them.

Quoted from Starwriter:

Rockland Pinball has a $2800 Shadow in the Northeast US for sale thread. Maybe they shipped you the wrong one. If not, I would hate to see what the $2800 one looks like.

My friend also told me about that $2800 shadow they had listed and thought it was messed up that he charged $3200 to a newbie for the same machine. I'm hoping that isn't the case.

Quoted from patrickvc:

If you payed for goods or services via paypal you should be covered.

I only paid the deposit with paypal but he told me the rest had to be paid by cashiers check or bank wire.
I'll follow you guys' advice and contact him.
I have no reason to lie or make up some story. I wish the machine i got was a nice shadow like he said more than anything.
Here are the pictures he sent me.

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#36 3 years ago
Quoted from Mbecker:

That's a 20 year old machine.. It's got some scuffs on it, big deal? if pictures were sent hiding damage that's one thing.. But you can't assume that because someone priced something a certain way that it's in pristine condition. That Playfield divot is caused by a screw coming through from the bottom -- someone relaced a screw with one that was a little long.
You got a players shadow and paid a little extra for it. Reseat the ribbon cables and play some shadow. You have to expect issues with older games and commit to fixing them and learning or paying someone else a lot to fix them for you. If you want less issues, spend the extra cash on a newer pin.

I didn't assume anything. He told it was in nice condition and I believed it cuz the price reflected it. Would you consider this machine a nice condition?

#37 3 years ago

Welcome to the hobby!
I have had similar experiences when I first started this hobby almost 2 years ago. My advice would be contact the seller and try to either return the game, get a partial refund, or ask the seller to help pay for some of the repair parts. There are many dishonest people out there, but there are many more honest people in this hobby. Don't let one bad purchase ruin the experience. It's best to look at a game in person. Pictures are great, but it's kind of like buying a used car over the internet. I prefer to look at a used car in person and inspect everything up close.

#38 3 years ago
Quoted from i_b_flippin:

I didn't assume anything. He told it was in nice condition and I believed it cuz the price reflected it. Would you consider this machine a nice condition?

I wouldn't consider it in nice condition. It could definitely use some tlc. The Sanctum area looks pretty nice. That is usually a high wear spot. Your game could be really nice with some work. Putting on new decals would be the most difficult part. It's a pain in the arse, unless your good at that sort of thing. I can't even put the screen protector on my cell phone.

#39 3 years ago

Are you sure the cab didn't get damaged in shipping?

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#40 3 years ago

Guys,

This was a players shape shadow, it left our shop working perfect w/ no credit dot or issues. mildy shopped, w/ leds. The playfield on this particular shadow was in excellent shape w/ very little to no sanctum wear. The playfield condition warranted a slightly higher price and offset the cabinet issues.

It was described as great playing machine, with minor cosmetic issues. (yes the board hacks look ugly and I should have caught that)

$3200 was our full retail price. Retail prices are always higher than pinside or other hobby sight prices.

Absolutely no smoke or mirrors here but once in a while one slips through the cracks.

We offer a full refund and will pay to have it shipped back, this is also the first I am hearing of this issue

#41 3 years ago

The chunk is on the left side by the leg is there in the pictures. It is the same machine. It does suck that the right side was up against the wall and that is where most of the cabinet damage was... The screw poke also sucks, but you can't expect sales guys to see every flaw. I think they are the same as the people who stand in the lot when you rent a car. If you don't see it they don't see it...
You paid for a working game. The seller owes you at least that. Have them schedule a repair at your location. Or tell them you will send the game back and you expect a full refund. You will still be out your shipping cost... The playfield does look good in the pictures... I would get some blue paint and touch up the cabinet scars and play the game. I know you wanted a nicer game. You look at the playfield every time you play. I would rather have a bashed up cabinet than a trashed playfield.
Sorry your entry into this hobby hasn't been the best.
-Shawn

#42 3 years ago

It honestly doesnt look that bad imo .I think the price wasn't too bad for retail personally

Quoted from Gwaxt72:

It was described as great playing machine, with minor cosmetic issues. (yes the board hacks look ugly and I should have caught that)

I have hard time believing this just slipped by accidentily. Should have been fixed correctly IMO.

I think you could have a pretty nice Shadow with a little bit of work. Learn how to repin connectors. GI (general illumination) issues are common.

Edit. Had I seen the seller I wouldn't have said this. Very reputable

#43 3 years ago
Quoted from Pimp77:

Did you get pics before purchasing?

This was my question.
Photos shown are basically the PF, not the entire game. Something to be noted in future sales. If you don't ask, things can be overlooked.

Overall condition would seem apparent.

I believe a partial refund is in order for time of repair on the PDB only.

Soldered GI header pins is not acceptable, unless directly disclosed in the sale. Brokers don't really care, dealers generally do. The tough part can how to tell the difference, if you have worked with them in the past.

OP - Don't dispair anything can be fixed.

#44 3 years ago

If you aren't satisfied with the machine just return it and eat the shipping charges.

Personally I would return it.

#45 3 years ago
Quoted from Toasterdog:

It honestly doesnt look that bad imo .I think the price wasn't too bad for retail personally

I have hard time believing this just slipped by accidentily. Should have been fixed correctly IMO.
I think you could have a pretty nice Shadow with a little bit of work. Learn how to repin connectors. GI (general illumination) issues are common.

Agreed. Outside of the small screw/pin hole the playfield looks pretty good. Sanctum looks great. The dmd and other issues are most likely solved by reseating connectors.

I would try to work out a partial refund for the work needed to correct the GI connector and call it a day and lesson learned.

#46 3 years ago
Quoted from Gwaxt72:

We offer a full refund and will pay to have it shipped back, this is also the first I am hearing of this issue

OP, looks like you can return it. I'd recommend doing just that and take the extra money it would've cost you to fix this one and add it to your refunded $3200 and buy a new stern pro. You will have a lot less headache and have time to learn the ins and outs of pinball ownership before you dive into a older title with gremlins in it and repairs needed

#47 3 years ago

I have purchased several machines from Rob at Rockland Pinball. He has always been very honest and open about the condition of each of the machines that I have purchased from him. He stands behind what he sells and is not the kind of guy who will turn his back on you if you are not satisfied. No matter who the seller, when it comes to a 20 plus year old game, things are not always perfect....what a great hobby to be in though.

#48 3 years ago

I noticed in your pics, the machine has a blue and red flipper button on the ball launcher side. I can't see this side on the ad pics, but the left side has 2 red buttons. Granted, any button could have been thrown in. Possible the machine is not the same one?
Also note the backbox illumination. The ad appears to have incandescent or warm led. Look at the reflection in OPs pic. Looks like Colored led's in backbox.
I'm not convinced it's the same machine.

#49 3 years ago

The scrambled Dmd is a ribbon cable, likely got jostled during shipping. Unplug ALL ribbon cables and plug them back in.

Based on the pics you were sent, doesn't seem like any of the defects you note were really highlighted. I've learned that You have to ask for very detailed pics, you didn't get any pics of the head or boards, that would maybe have deterred your purchase. Playfield pinholes can be touched up, but should have been noted. Hacked wiring is something seller should have picked up, that's not really acceptable. That said rebuilding a connector is not expensive or time consuming to address...a tech can do it in 15 mins or less and parts are pennies, literally. The chunks out of the cab are unfortunate, but again, you didn't get great pics and should have pushed harder for better pics...lesson learned. Rather than return it, which is a hastle and costly for both buyer and seller, try to work out a partial refund. New cab decals are about $250 (not including labor), wiring will cost you about a hundred to get fixed, so maybe $400 off would cover it. A decent player shadow at $2800 isn't terrible...assuming those are the only issues. If I am buying remotely, I often ask for a video before I make the drive.

I bought a TZ from Rob with a non working clock, he covered a new clock from Ingo. I've bought other games from him, no problem. Other times I've had to walk because description was different, I've learned you just need to ask for very detailed pics. If you don't get them, walk away.

#50 3 years ago

Looks like the seller is willing to stand behind the game and take it back and pay to have it shipped. No need to discuss further. Make arrangements and get a refund and be thankful it turned out well and be more careful the next time and consider getting a simpler game for your first pin purchase.

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