(Topic ID: 257731)

What "bad" game would turn into a "great" game with better rules?


By JodyG

5 months ago



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  • 100 posts
  • 64 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 months ago by TRAMD
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    #1 5 months ago

    @chuckwurt mentioned in another thread that Monopoly would be a much better game if it were not for the wood choppy rules. What games have a fun layout, but terrible rule set? Can you turn any layout into a great game as long as the rules are fun?

    12
    #2 5 months ago

    Probably half of Gottlieb's games from the 90's would be much more fun with a better rule set. I've owned a SF2 and while the deck was fun to shoot, the bone simple rules made it get boring fast.

    #3 5 months ago

    Just about every bad game out there, except maybe Thunderbirds.

    A couple that come to mind:
    Roller Coaster Tycoon
    Swords of Fury (not the worst, but the playfield has a lot more going on than the rules make you want to play).

    #5 5 months ago

    I don't know if you could make it great but Stern IJ could go from being a truly awful game to at least fun with a complete software overhaul. Game layout isn't great but it's at least serviceable.

    #6 5 months ago

    TOM I know it's a fan favorite but if you want all you can do is shoot left orbit. Some other games that come to mind are Munsters, RZ, Shaq Attack, and Data East Star Trek.

    #7 5 months ago
    Quoted from greenhorn1:

    I don't know if you could make it great but Stern IJ could go from being a truly awful game to at least fun with a complete software overhaul. Game layout isn't great but it's at least serviceable.

    This is one that comes up in my own mind. We had one on location nearby recently, and I couldn't even find a gameplay guide for it anywhere on the internet. Such a shame they had such a great license and pissed it away.

    #8 5 months ago

    I am waiting for someone to suggest Munsters as needing better rules.
    And then Who-dey to defend Munsters as being good as-is.

    #9 5 months ago

    Scared Stiff is a big one for me. That game is fun to shoot, but it’s so boring to play more than a few times.

    #10 5 months ago

    Jolly Park. Very few people actually played more than a few games on this rare Spanish pin to realize the ruleset was abyssal and even basic settings could not be changed. Too bad, because the layout is not bad and there are some interesting innovations.

    #11 5 months ago

    This is currently being worked on by Chad H. There's a healthy discussion about it in the DE Star Trek thread.

    #12 5 months ago
    Quoted from littlecammi:

    I am waiting for these two posts to be made to this thread:
    Someone to suggest Munsters as needing better rules.
    And CrazyLevi then defending Munsters to be great as-is.

    Munsters needs better rules, it sucks as is. I've said this many times and even made suggestions for how the game could be improved.

    Do your homework! Or I'll post a picture of Calvin pissing on a Ford logo. And you don't want me to do that.

    #13 5 months ago

    Cactus canyon anyone?

    #14 5 months ago
    Quoted from Rolpa:

    Probably half of Gottlieb's games from the 90's would be much more fun with a better rule set. I've owned a SF2 and while the deck was fun to shoot, the bone simple rules made it get boring fast.

    Yeah SFII has some cool shots, like the satisfying Guile shot, and the frustrating Chun Li shot. The rules and speed blow goats. The Callouts kinda suck too.

    #15 5 months ago

    Monopoly is the first game that pops into my mind. It gets so boring yet the layout is really good. I think even a minor change would make it much better and that change would be stacking. If the game allowed stacking, I think it would be alot more interesting.

    Judge Dredd, while not a bad game, could be so much better with better rules. It has a fantastic layout and is fun to play as is, but it would be so much better if the layout was better utilized.

    Johnny Mnemonic, again not really a bad game, would be so much more with balanced rules. I own one and really enjoy it, but the spinner is the thing to light and hit. Nothing else comes close. The modes are fun, but not worth enough points. Back in the day, I was hoping the guys that did the Matrix would release it as a kit. I love the layout of JM -- it's brutally fast -- and the Matrix looked fun.

    #16 5 months ago
    Quoted from Malenko:

    Yeah SFII has some cool shots, like the satisfying Guile shot, and the frustrating Chun Li shot. The rules and speed blow goats. The Callouts kinda suck too.

    Good one. Yes, SFII is horrible as is and would be so much better. What a waste of a great theme.

    #17 5 months ago
    Quoted from Oaken:

    Cactus canyon anyone?

    Cc already redone with new rules by eric. Kit costs just under 1000. I think the real question is this: what game would you be willing to pay$1000 to get new rules on if the new rules made the game awesome?

    #19 5 months ago
    Quoted from jamescardona:

    Cc already redone with new rules by eric. Kit costs just under 1000. I think the real question is this: what game would you be willing to pay$1000 to get new rules on if the new rules made the game awesome?

    I'd have a hard time justifying that. I don't find these custom software/roms improve games much, if all. BOP 2.0 isn't any better than the original. Getting rid of the last 0 digit on Flash doesn't make it a better game. Didn't Lyman Sheats do the software for MB? So why would I want to replace it with the work of an amateur?

    When it comes to these games, in the words of Russell Bufalina...it is what it is.

    #20 5 months ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    I'd have a hard time justifying that. I don't find these custom software/roms improve games much, if all. BOP 2.0 isn't any better than the original. Getting rid of the last 0 digit on Flash doesn't make it a better game. Didn't Lyman Sheats do the software for CC? So why would I want to replace it with the work of an amateur?

    When it comes to these games, in the words of Russell Bufalina...it is what it is.

    Sometimes they absolutely do. DE Star Wars and Creech come to mind. Both games went from being unbalanced to tournament-worthy with code updates. The difference is that amateur programmers are doing it because they love the game and want it to be the best it can be.

    Not saying Lyman isn't a great coder because he is, but sometimes you just don't put your soul into something when it's your job. These games are over 20 years old, and computer knowledge is light years from what it was back then. Plus I'm sure Cactus Canyon is the last thing on Lyman's mind.

    #21 5 months ago

    If I were to create another new game based on an existing playfield (like I did with Queen) I'd use a Lethal Weapon 3.

    #22 5 months ago

    Earthshaker. Great idea, cool intergration of the shaker motor, nice layout. Bad rules make the center ramp exploitable and really no reason to do much else unless you don’t care about score.

    #23 5 months ago

    The new code takes away the only ramp in the game. It made the game less fun for me.

    #24 5 months ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    The new code takes away the only ramp in the game.

    What about the combo and hyperspace? I suppose everything is personal preference, but I'd rather have balance than one easily repeated shot.

    #25 5 months ago
    Quoted from greenhorn1:

    I don't know if you could make it great but Stern IJ could go from being a truly awful game to at least fun with a complete software overhaul. Game layout isn't great but it's at least serviceable.

    Totally agree here. I think this game has some cool innovations like the captive ball raising to become a scoop and I like the area with the sling and captive ball up there too. Just can't stand the Lonnie linear rules. That has stopped me from buying one all these years. I do understand this game came out during the lean period where it was pretty much just Borg and Lonnie on staff.

    #26 5 months ago

    I totally get the SS and early game suggestions. For me, the glaring current game is GOTG. I loved the movies, and think I like them less now because I think the pin sucks, especially from theme integration.

    Rules - Just another Lonnie "Shoot colored shots because POINTS" rule set with movie clips playing and minimal thought into why these shots required represent these characters.

    Orb MB - Why is this a MB besides the lazy "well, a pinball is round, and an orb is round, and it's part of the movie and we have to name 2 multiballs after parts of the movie" response. The Orb is a single orb, not multiple. That toy should've been in the shooter lane and the ball fires out of it to suggest you're flipping around the orb. The name and concept behind "Orb Multiball" is shoehorning at its laziest.

    Groot MB - I get the appeal of the Groot toy, but "Groot Multiball" by name is more of the same. The MB that should've been there would be "Prison Escape" with each lock leading up to it being one of the Guardians coming into the prison room, not just Groot leaning sideways each time, and then the fight scene that ensues with Groot going ballistic would be when the MB starts.

    #27 5 months ago
    Quoted from Pahuffman:

    What about the combo and hyperspace

    What about it? Haha

    He could’ve simply taken off the auto advance of Star Wars letters and it would’ve been fine. Or require a shot before collecting the next level of ramp shots. Don’t take away the ramp counter awards completely.

    #29 5 months ago

    I like my Dungeons & Dragons but the rules seem to have little to do with D&D.....

    #30 5 months ago
    Quoted from jamescardona:

    Cc already redone with new rules by eric. Kit costs just under 1000. I think the real question is this: what game would you be willing to pay$1000 to get new rules on if the new rules made the game awesome?

    The way I read the Original Post was what game with current manufacturing code could be great with alternate code. A lot of these games already have examples of alternate code attempting to fix the original code.

    Cactus canyon might be a bit cheating since Eric’s code has shown how much better the game can get. But to me, it’s kinda the standard of shit to gold code wise.

    #31 5 months ago

    It's obviously not a bad game, but I think MM could have been much better code wise.

    #32 5 months ago
    Quoted from Pinball_Gizzard:

    Earthshaker. Great idea, cool intergration of the shaker motor, nice layout. Bad rules make the center ramp exploitable and really no reason to do much else unless you don’t care about score.

    There's a couple of roms that fix this. soren 's knee caps it at 25k I think once it's maxed. I wonder if resetting the mileage each ball would make end of the road too grindy and you'd shoot for something else? A jackpot relight would be nice too.

    A lot of people discount the max spinner, 100k each trip isn't too bad for a relatively safe shot (although obviously not safer than the center ramp)

    #33 5 months ago

    Wheel of fortune

    #34 5 months ago
    Quoted from Pinball_Gizzard:

    Earthshaker. Great idea, cool intergration of the shaker motor, nice layout. Bad rules make the center ramp exploitable and really no reason to do much else unless you don’t care about score.

    Most System 11 games seem to have the same "middle ramp, million point" exploit. Even worse is the point stealing option for the last player on Police Force. That's a game breaking flaw, IMO.

    #35 5 months ago
    Quoted from dr_nybble:

    I like my Dungeons & Dragons but the rules seem to have little to do with D&D.....

    Wish multiball could've been integrated with the Mystical Millions shot. It's either the one or the other.

    #36 5 months ago
    Quoted from JodyG:

    Most System 11 games seem to have the same "middle ramp, million point" exploit. Even worse is the point stealing option for the last player on Police Force. That's a game breaking flaw, IMO.

    Police Force take the high score has been fixed for years.

    #37 5 months ago
    Quoted from greenhorn1:

    I don't know if you could make it great but Stern IJ could go from being a truly awful game to at least fun with a complete software overhaul. Game layout isn't great but it's at least serviceable.

    Unfortunately, think the gameplay is really contingent on the playfield design on this one. I really like what Apple has done here - maybe a little too much for my taste...just my opinion. At least the scoring was cleaned up.

    Really needed another ramp on this one. Cart chase from Temple of Doom was a huge missed opportunity.

    -4
    #38 5 months ago

    Creech *should* be more fun than it is, but the multiball is a total dud. Nothing about the rewards makes much of the game worth the effort.

    Hurricane could use some extra content and tweaks to the ramp rules to stop it being a one-shot game.

    Bride Of One Shot has already been addressed before.

    A more advanced version of Monster Bash's rules with additional goal tiers to aim for would go down well, I think.

    Going to have to say Stern Star Wars as well. Keith Johnson's approach would have been so much better; the game badly needs an entry point that the player could decide for themselves - pick your favourite characters, play their stories. And for the love of God DON'T show me the game's ENTIRE content by cycling through the skillshot and bore me shitless before I've even shot my first ball into play.

    #39 5 months ago

    Every Gottlieb/Premier game deserves a deep ruleset. Some of the most novel playfields. Someone please do a 2.0 version of Gold Wings.

    #40 5 months ago
    Quoted from jamescardona:

    Cc already redone with new rules by eric. Kit costs just under 1000. I think the real question is this: what game would you be willing to pay$1000 to get new rules on if the new rules made the game awesome?

    Every Gottlieb/Premier game. Easy.

    #41 5 months ago
    Quoted from cait001:

    Every Gottlieb/Premier game deserves a deep ruleset. Some of the most novel playfields. Someone please do a 2.0 version of Gold Wings.

    Gottlieb were known for rushing the code out and not really taking the time to test it adequately for balance.

    #42 5 months ago
    Quoted from EalaDubhSidhe:

    Gottlieb were known for rushing the code out and not really taking the time to test it adequately for balance.

    Yup. Just imagine what a Lyman Sheets version of Big Hurt or SF2 could be like! (mind you, SF2 NEEDS an autoplunger modded into it)

    #43 5 months ago

    Batman forever

    #44 5 months ago
    Quoted from Pinball_Gizzard:

    Earthshaker. Great idea, cool intergration of the shaker motor, nice layout. Bad rules make the center ramp exploitable and really no reason to do much else unless you don’t care about score.

    Agreed, even though Earthshaker is the game that got me hooked on pinball. Center ramp can be spammed all day long, and there's no point to multiball after scoring the jackpot. I've given some thought to making a modified rom that has million-plus scoring similar to Whirlwind, but my assembler-fu has sadly been long unpracticed since my undergrad days.

    #45 5 months ago
    Quoted from cait001:

    Every Gottlieb/Premier game. Easy.

    I always thought the System 80B games were pretty okay. Simple, but ok.

    It’s not until you get to System 3 where things turn messy. Random awards, spammable shots, catch-up, Etc. They tried too much too fast and didn’t take the time to refine what would otherwise be cool idea implementation. People love to hate on them, but a lot of their decks are really fun to shoot otherwise.

    #46 5 months ago
    Quoted from mbaumle:

    I always thought the System 80B games were pretty okay. Simple, but ok.
    It’s not until you get to System 3 where things turn messy. Random awards, spammable shots, catch-up, Etc. They tried too much too fast and didn’t take the time to refine what would otherwise be cool idea implementation. People love to hate on them, but a lot of their decks are really fun to shoot otherwise.

    Gottlieb seemed to get into the format of shooting a set series of shots in order around the playfield to advance the game as opposed to chopping wood around one shot like many others. Not all Gottlieb games were like this by any means....but Victory stands out as an 80B game in this format, then with System 3 games, you have Operation Thunder, Teed off, etc. Waterworld actually had some fairly deep rules that most people didn't understand, as well as the nifty window award grid...but the theme spiked most peoples interest right off the bat.

    #47 5 months ago

    Gottleib strikes n spares, could have been so much neater. It’s a fun bowler, as in not really a pin....but, what about animations matching pins remaining and picked up? Beer frame? Cutaways from the alley featuring drunks on the lanes, random “glitches” that auto resolve like ball not returning, pins not resetting with a corresponding graphic, ie simulate the real lane experience. Especially having two(!) dmds! Graphic interface should have been paramount! With an update could even upgrade to color dmd which would be awesome. Gottleib did fine on the cabinet and playfield, just need the code.

    #48 5 months ago
    Quoted from cait001:

    Every Gottlieb/Premier game deserves a deep ruleset. Some of the most novel playfields. Someone please do a 2.0 version of Gold Wings.

    I keep thinking I will sell my Goldwings, but then I think about it and realize how much I like the game for what it is. I actually did a full rebuild on it including clearcoating the playfield. The layout is unique and the half million shot is hard as hell (usually make it by accident). Although, I wish it was more based on making certain shots in order like Operation Thunder. As it stands, the best way to high scores on Gold Wings is increasing the bonus multiplier up to the moon and then scoring the half million shot during multiball.

    #49 5 months ago
    Quoted from EalaDubhSidhe:

    Creech *should* be more fun than it is, but the multiball is a total dud. Nothing about the rewards makes much of the game worth the effort...

    I have to disagree with you on this. CFTBL could use a little polish to make this game even better, but the multi-ball is so tough it is a big challenge. Just "finding the girl" and obtaining the jackpot is hard enough to do with two balls. The few times when you actually light Super JP with multiple pop bumper hits and make the shot (with the fantastic callout and graphic) never gets old--perhaps the most rewarding shot in pinball--at least in the top 10. And I haven't even talked about trying to max out the multiplier via the bowl shot during all this.

    I wonder what the third ball would add to this sequence--I'd like the option to be able to try it.

    #50 5 months ago
    Quoted from Billy16:

    I have to disagree with you on this. ...

    Join the club, one of the best MBs ever.

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