Well, beside the obvious answer of 'cutting cost', sure seems like a dumb thing to do. Geez, how much does a grommet made in China cost?

Long time ago, there use to be a story about Capehart radios (1920's - 1930's). They'd make a radio and start taking parts until it quit working, then put that part back in - and called it a day. Probably untrue, but part of me believes it. LOL. Maybe Stern is follow the same path? ...maybe. Seems like they don't learn from their mistakes.

Each via (top/bottom interconnect) requires drilling. My 1" x 2" PinRemote PCB has roughly 25 of them, all drilled. As complexity, parts count and space conservation increases so does via count.

Just for the record.

Ditto regarding vias and cost.

At work, we actually do micro vias (only goes thru certain layers, sometimes buried internally) fairly often. Some guys even bury printed parts on the internal layers. I think I even worked on a 25ish layer board once (not my board, I just simulated it for someone). Needless to say, some very serious $$.

There is a lot of conjecture here that is offered without proof, which is part of human nature. "Lord Mounts", or vibration isolators are designed to do just that, but resonances rule the day and they can easily make things worse if the system isn't understood.

The problem is two pronged: You must understand what vibration patterns are produced (pretty hard for a pinball machine) and then design PCB mounting to counter those. This is beyond the scope of pinball manufacturers.

At HP in the late 70's I did environmental testing on a desktop calculator product. We strapped it to a special table where we could control the frequency, intensity, mode (direction) and duration of the shaking we were going to subject the unit to. Most tests were pretty benign, the unit just ran quietly. There was one test though, where the operator scanned through the frequency spectrum at will - looking for settings that "produced the most noise". The most noise meant something inside was at resonance and was getting maximum deflection. Sure enough, 30 seconds later or so the machine would die and the test was over. Find the parts that were broken off the board (usually large caps in the power supply) and devise some way to secure them. In some cases a PCB was attached at both ends but not in the middle so it just bowed like crazy: it needed support in the middle.

I enjoy reading about adapting drone ideas to pinball and seeing what parts are being used to do this but won't be modifying my machines this way as some sort of crazy experiment. I'm just going to trust the manufacturer - and think about replicating the boards myself some day.

That's a good, real life example.

I can appreciate your experience but stern barely tests it's games. Thinking they are doing fancy resonance tests is way beyond wishful thinking.

I did say this type of testing is beyond ALL manufacturers.

Stern "invented" the idea of letting the customers test the product, and they don't even ask those same customers to send in log dumps to help them fix the products like some newcomers do.

Someone else coined this saying: PINBALL IS HARD

We had a tongue-in-cheek saying at HP: "Don't comment code. It's hard to write, it should be hard to read."

That's Funny. I comment the crap out of my code so I can figure out what the hell I was trying to do only weeks earlier.

The biggest comment I remember from the 9845 HP project was "DML [date]" Ah, Dave Landers wrote this and later changed it. Funny now. Worthless.

Later we would see comments like "implemented as a singly-linked list" only to find out later that it was doubly-linked.

Or "disk I/O queue sorted by shortest-seek-time-first" only to determine that it is done by user job priority, then biggest writes first.

Now I only comment the tricky stuff and always in some snarky way.

In many ways I look forward to the end of the latest pinball revival as this will force Stern to improve the quality of construction of their products in all areas. It has happened before and it will happen again.

Until then I remain resolute in my opinion, which shared by operators and techicians which have to accept certain aspects in order to pay the bills. Consumers do not, but education remains a choice.

Your gut feel...how often do distributors have to 'eat the cost' to keep their customers happy when the manufacturers don't fix obvious problems? Or in this case (node boards), does Stern do a good job of stepping up to the plate? Given the node board prices mentioned prior, it seems like that is a rather big burden on the distributors then just fixing a board with a cheap part like before, if Stern doesn't help out.

Distributors don't often take hits for consumers, or they would not stay in business. They do try help resolve complaints or issues, if possible, within reason. It is called, "pointing the way". They will take returns due to damage in transit, or lack of proper function after set up. Those type of failures are built into the business model by a distributor for returns.

Distributors often do not say anything, if they become aware of design issues, say introduced by technical bulletin updates by manufacturers, meaning boards/parts. They expect the end user, whether home owner or operator to make the request directly. If parts are available, a game remains within warranty, distributors will help a customer. If the game is a year old or more after delivery, not so much. That is the business model. Some might call this "shady" as referring to Betson Enterprises out here in Portland by some , but that is being overly harsh. These devices remain quantified as "commercial" equipment, not consumer electronics. Game distributors are not Costcos of the pinball world. If it works, its yours. Operators go to the SOURCE, meaning to manufacturer to solve problems, unless a distributor provided a damaged product in delivery.

Distributors are not designed/expected to be full time repair shops, except in resale of refurbished equipment. They are not troubleshooting customer care centers, and many don't have the necessary experience/time to do it for the smaller ones particularly. They are SALES, first organizations.

Distributors ARE aware of the shortfalls of present SPIKE games, but have no direct solutions. No doubts about this aspect. They simply won't say anything, as if they did they would be out of business, or lose their contract with a manufacturer.

Stern has continued to provide customer service "beyond the call of duty" in most cases presently including technical troubleshooting, but don't expect that same level of care once a game is over 5 years old. They don't laugh, rather simply shrug shoulders. The earliest SPIKE games qualify for this consideration today.

I uncrated a starwars pro today as my son is a big fan. The game had a bumper that was machine gunning constantly. I was surprised that the software would allow this to continue. On even system 3 Gottlieb pinballs from the 90,s if a sling or bumper was gapped too close it would shut off when a machine gunning scenario started.
I hope stern can address this in the future because a burnt coil and transistor on this new system could be a disaster.
I would also like to see plywood bottoms rather than artificial wood that is highly susceptible to moisture.
Overall happy but this will be my last nib Stern until documentation and theory of operation regarding nodeboards, CPU is provided.

Surely there must be some kind of counter measure against this? Thought it was a standard from at least the beginning of the 90s on, on everything.

Presumably, like the rest of the system, it's there but is either badly designed or prone to failure, and not working in your case.

If indeed they've removed that (it's present in SAM), that would tend to suggest they *want* stuff to fail catastrophically.

Surely, there is a great counter-measure to this. It's called removing the lockdown bar, removing the glass, lifting the playfield and adjusting a switch. It requires zero dollars and 5 minutes of time.

A pinball machine is never going to be a toaster. Nobody should ever be shocked if a pinball game requires slight adjustments out of the box, it's been that way for 80 years or so.

The switch adjustment is easy enough to make. The software adjustment also used to be easy enough to make. Imagine if this happened on location. I think this helps make the point about who stern is designing for.

I was under the impression this was not only to prevent costly damage to the game, but a safety feature to stop potential fires. Something, it could be argued, that are made significantly more likely in a system that is not fused.

What you're suggesting - if Spike really does lack this, or lack a reliable counter measure - is that someone (with keys) should always be in attendance, babysitting Spike/2 games, and capable of carrying out maintenance, when they're switched on.

Assuming that wouldn't be a very obvious problem and safety issue in a home environment, how on earth would your advice tally for locations or operators?

Edit: If it lacks this feature, or the feature is unreliable, how on earth does it conform to CE certification, a requirement in Europe, as this is a clear fire hazard?

Both of you are making true statements. I haven't bought a NIB yet that didn't require adjustment out of the box. Every one of them needs some tweaking, and that will be true forever.

AND the game should step in and squash that, reporting it as a switch problem. On SPIKE games especially. A switch going out of adjustment should be handled, no question. Just like shorted lights should be handled...

Your right, and I guess even if the components are cheaper in the end there are a crap ton more of them being used in a smaller area.
But 1k for a cpu board? I've built several PC's for cheaper then that with higher specs. Just wish they did something that was interchangeable, with the mainstream.

I was able used a 2017 parts on my RFM/SWE1 build. Mainly because I wanted to use a smaller form factor mobo to use the original P2k 2000 case.
Ran into a lot of compatibility issues though, since nucore was built on ubuntu 10.1 or something like. think I was able to get away with using ubuntu 15.10, while keeping all the original libs compatible with that version. Lot of fun, learned a lot about Linux.
Think regardless of what they do there is only so many years of software compatibility, unless they update the build with each release.
it's the same reason why a lot of apps stop working after a new IOS release.

that's basically what half the posts on internet forums are. I appreciate when people correct me, it all helps me understand the different viewpoints and aspects of the topic on hand. Then you have the people who get super defensive, and won't hear anything else regardless of how illogical their viewpoint may seem. Think we are all guilty of this to some extent though.

25 layers... shiiit!
yeah, could see that getting expensive. vias huh, didn't know that was the term used for the connection of traces on separate layers.
so when I install an eyelet, it's then called a via if it connects more then one side together? feel kind of stupid asking, just not real familiar with the terminology.

we had an asshat that would use nonsense variable names in his code like 'bowwow', 'meow' and 'woofwoof' (needless to say he was one of those "furries" and a rather odd person at best

eyelet would be the term for the item you use to fix a blown out via.

via = plated through hole on circuit board connecting layers, top to bottom on a two layer/two sided pcb.
eyelet is the little metal column/ring. like a fabric eyelet for a coat string or whatever.

I surely understand as I can do the adjustment. But many new people are entering the hobby and may not do this or this could develop on location .
Typical scenerio is a ball gets stuck. Kid walks away and bumper fires repeatedly until things heat up.
I'm not bashing stern just pointing out observations.

Writing code to detect that is a bit trickier than it might seem. Do-able, but then you delay intro and people get pissed at you ( - :

well they should gave root passwords / sudo to logged in user. Now with an old linux distro will get more hardware compatibility with out really needing to do a lot more.

We actually use micro copper rivets when we route our own boards for prototyping. We use LPKF routers which are sort of like mini-endmills, but they just remove copper from a PWB and drill holes. Flip the PWB over, do that side, and you now have a double-sided board! But we can't metal plate the vias, so we just mash and solder the rivets to duplicate a via. Here's an example of LPKF PWB router:
lpfk (resized).PNG

lpkf2 (resized).PNG

I am just going to throw this out there - partly because we Pinsiders seem to like discussing/arguing so much, and partly because the discussion of ‘what else could we do’ is so fascinating to me: do you think pinball will ever move to FPGAs to handle the logic?

Hum, wonder if my Instructables "Carvey" could do that...

Nevermind, it is hard enough troubleshooting the circuit without having to troubleshoot the PCB!

Great stuff you are sharing here Mr. Walker

P-ROC uses an FPGA to handle all the low level stuff, which makes sense since that stuff never changes.

But for game rules? Cheaper and easier to use an off the shelf CPU.

Games don't need a ton of horsepower... or complex computation... which means a general purpose CPU is generally going to be cheaper to use. And the drive to SoC designs that include networking and graphics even further reduces the need for supporting cast of peripherials. Why do custom, when you can ride on the back of someone doing volume in the millions and get their economies of scale in sw development and manufacturing.

The cost scaler in games is all the interfacing and switching of the physical I/O. Which is why you've seen games move to simple common design CPU boards, networked to driver boards scaled to the task at hand.

I agree that the lamp/switch/relay stuff is pretty easy, but the graphics (like WOZ) and sound can get pretty CPU intensive.

Thanks MCB, it is appreciated. That Carvey looks kinda slick.

I don't have nearly the knowledge as most on here...I'm just a newbie to pins, and have learned a lot from some very sharp people and great 'been there, done that already' repair posts on Pinside. But if I have some experience in the area, albeit obscure, I'll chime in.

We may have slightly derailed the Spike 2 thread with a lot of vibration discussions. I thought they were interesting, and it does sound like this might be an issue long term, along with some electrical short comings (the diodes, schematics) - so maybe only a slight derail. It will be interesting when Stern finally releases the info.

Controlling resonance in a pin is a compelling design topic (what helps, what doesn't) due to all the mechanical dynamics encountered, especially when combined with vendors trying to 'do it on the cheap', possibly without the technical wherewithal.

and why my next sentance said "And the drive to SoC designs that include networking and graphics even further reduces the need for supporting cast of peripherials."

Plus, why implement graphics in a FPGA when you can have a mass produced chip with readily available drivers that you can implement right off the shelf.

Playing movie clips (even custom designed clips) isn't CPU intensive by today's standards. Think about the graphics on a modern video game with multiple moving elements, all generating their own shadows and other elements. Playing a few dozen frames of a movie takes a fraction of the CPU power, even if you're overlaying other data on top of it.
#lexy is the most CPU intensive pinball I can think of.

Today's standard = graphics processing load is handed to the GPU. If there's no GPU, you bet your a$$ the main CPU would be taxed, big time.

Does Spike have a GPU?

You're also talking about different things. Playing video is less CPU/GPU intensive than rendering a scene. When you're talking about "generating shadows", you're talking about rendering. Pinball machines (so far) do not have to render anything, it's all pre-recorded clips.

Integrated graphics are still common. My 10+ year old CPU isn't taxed at all playing movies, even while doing other things at the same time. Neither are modern CPUs. The computing power available far exceeds the requirements.

I don't think this is correct.

Good to know, thanks.

My focus is on the most venerable foundation to build things on so they don't become obsolete. Celeron? (JJP), maybe. Whatever Stern uses? Don't know but probably not.

The ARM family seems to have pretty solid legs. If, as you say, it doesn't take much CPU then build your foundation on that family.

I would debate that, but I don't know exactly what they do so I can't argue knowledgeably.

This all depends. CPU can go either way, depending on all kinds of factors. GPU, yeah way less to render a simple video. What you don't cover is the bus hit, though, which is WAY more for frames of video than a typically rendered scene where everything is loaded up front and very rarely during a frame.

You mean specifically "render 3d elements in a 3d graphics engine," because otherwise it's nonsensical. Everything is rendered. Just so happens pinball machines mostly work in 2d.

Typically, although we don't routinely test these things, anything that fits in the socket for any of our mobos should work fine

Edit to add: also, we roll out disk images that work with all previous mobos and allow you to update/replace old mobos with any we've shipped with (and tbh probably lots of others we haven't shipped with).

I'm assuming it would be a formality to roll a new system image with drivers for later Intel, or AMD, or even VIA chipsets?

Yes. Exactly. Sorry, it's obvious to me since I am a gamer (PC games). It's hard to explain 3d rendering in a simple way.

You're mixing it up...

Decoding and playing movie clips is not intensive... because your CPU has built in hardware decoders for common mpeg or h264 video now.

But in gaming you aren't just playing movie clips... you are doing composing of different live rendered stuff WITH other fixed assets and mixing in things like transparency, etc. A lot more intensive then just playing clips.

That's why we got spike II vs spike I .. when they added the LCD panel.

Exactly. Do we know what Spike has as far as "decoders" and "accelerators"? (if any)

I’ll go check the schematics...

You'd think so, but you'd be sadly mistaken given the number of issues we've run into over the years.

I assume it's about the maker of USB bus chipsets that causes issues? Are they Intel, Via, NEC, Highpoint etc etc in the boards you've used?

As one of the system architects at Multimorphic, and the primary system architect at Valley-Dynamo, Spooky, Circus Maximus Games and primary OS guy at American Pinball, we all have slightly different requirements depending on the game implementation.

The P3 is by far the most advanced in terms of the rendering engine and resource demand. We're powering up to three monitors, two of which run at 1080p. The games are doing full real-time 3D rendering and compositing to make the scene you see on the playfield/backbox.

Houdini has a higher resource demand than some of the others due to the sheer number of graphical assets the game has, but those are on a 2D plane.

TNA and Alice Cooper all run 2D, but we use the video acceleration hardware wherever possible to render frames and cut the CPU usage down. We HAVE to use these technologies in order to cut the compute BoM down, plus they just look better to the player. AC/NC is still very early though, and uses a slightly beefier system than TNA, but the OS components are mostly the same.

Valley-Dynamo has a much lower resource demand when designing their new air hockey tables. Similar to Multimorphic/Spooky, their hardware control takes place on a dedicated hardware system, so the compute demand is fairly low for their stuff.

Circus Maximus doesn't have a high CPU demand yet on Kingpin, mostly since the compute system right now is being used to run the M68k emulation for the Capcom system. That demand will increase as development on the custom HD code continues.

As with all of 86Pixels' clients, we maintain upgradeability between all of the core OS components between companies pretty much on-demand.

Had no idea you were involved with AP, too. Interesting.

I'm a whore... (for sho)