I agree with your entire post but not sure I understand the last part of the above sentence. How is it a leap forward? What does Spike II do better than SAM? Pardon my ignorance on the question, the difference in specs is above my technical grade so all I see are the extra costs in replacing them when they fail (which at least seems to be more frequently than on SAM).

Those that work on the games regularly from route operation recognize that Stern SPIKE titles will be in the garbage dump in 10 years, but until then they will remain "reliable".
Our company still has regular, periodic infant mortality failures within 3-6 months of initial operation based on volume sales (we even had a couple instances out of the box), which requires node board replacement of all types. Why? HEAVY operational play.

We do full burn ins for at least 3-5 days before location placement. No full MPU failures to my memory. Stern customer service remains good.
Lifecycle remains doubled for home use games on average based on board testing.
Personally, I will never own a SPIKE game ever, as it is more apt within the next 5 years to get dumped for support when Stern moves onto a new system and determines this is already obsolete. It's like throwing money into a toilet, and pulling the handle.
Home enthusiasts are better off using the P-ROC system from other manufacturers, as this design is schematic documented and the boards are cost effective.
If a person is a high volume operator, it probably does not matter, as the game will have run due course, made its money, and you do have to buy what tournament and pinheads want to play, meaning the "new stuff" in many instances.

The P3-ROC isn't a CPU, it allows a computer with USB to communicate with the P-ROC boards and handles most of the low-level stuff. I think Houdini uses an UPBoard for the CPU, but ultimately it's a commercially available single board computer that could be replaced by any future computer that can run Linux and has a USB port, whereas SPIKE is a proprietary board made specifically for Stern.

Nothing insanely unusual about it that a hardware guy couldn't make replacements but still not as easy as ordering on Amazon.

There are no significant advantages of SPIKE over SAM, except to Stern themselves in overall cost of manufacturing both in parts, design, and speed of assembly.
It does not even have an improved diagnostic or menu system comparative for such an "advanced" system.
The reality is SPIKE was a step backwards in the Reliability-Serviceability-Durability (RSD) of pinball PCB design and game longevity.
It is like comparing the modern Valley Dynamo Zombie Baseball to an old WMS 1962 World Series (which BTW World Series has more features).
If you put them side by side, fully serviced, Zombie Baseball fails first from things like sheared batting assemblies and bent running man units.
It is incredible how cheaply these games are produced at times.

Technicians already know, and it would benefit the public to stop believing Stern propaganda.
Being "behind" in technology has its reasons, as part of the requirements are having to be able to fix what you own.
If an item is purely disposable/unrepairable, operators refuse to buy new equipment and manufacturers stop making games.
Enthusiasts need to stop thinking that these devices were initially designed for home use, as even today they have operators in mind.
The percentage of home users that understand the SPIKE operation system is very small.

Well, less wiring means less connector failures and wiring problems.

Less easy connector repairs.

Another reason the home market has totally taken over and the operator market appears to be, basically, insignificant by comparison for new Stern sales...best I can tell anyway.

How about (LCD) screen output and better quality sounds (higher bitrate) ?

I'd say these things are pretty significant.

I thought this was a discussion regarding reliability and design functions of the boards?
If we are discussing features now, SPIKE certainly has these perks.
SAM was a very robust designed game system, which worked well.
Personally, I would rather have a game that I know I can keep going, than one that has extra fancy sounds and video.
That is why I still own EMs too.

You are correct.
As long as new owners can get buffaloed, Stern will not change.
It is not like operators and distributors are unwise to the events around them, but they have businesses to run.
It is more likely that Stern will completely stop production of games, if the market falls flat, during the next pinball stall.
They already were last time anyway in 2009, and only one vote saved the company.
Stern has to squeeze out as much money as they can, when times are good.

Just a couple of the reasons why I personally feel like it's a leap forward from SAM:

- They now use a bus for communication between nodes, it's what makes the system more modular. If some new technology or mech comes out, they aren't constrained to flipping transistors on and off or scanning a switch matrix, they can use their existing CPU hardware and node boards and just introduce a new type of node board. It doesn't require a re-release of the core hardware to do that. Even if Stern decided to upgrade to a more powerful CPU (Node 0), none of the other nodes have to change. Conversely, if a common node design like Node 8 gets updated, prior games that use Node 8 could potentially use the upgraded node. The bus protocol provides a nice layer of separation between devices.

- The node boards themselves have some advanced features on them. You can tell that even though all the features on the node boards may not be exposed or known about yet, the ones I've seen are pretty good. For example, the node boards have overcurrent detection and protection on them, and are able to smartly disable themselves as a line of defense. I think as we learn more about the system and Stern starts exposing that data through the display and error messages, we will really appreciate some of those features being born into the hardware.

I think as Spike II ages and platform goodies are taken more advantage of, it will be known as a really solid, long-term system.

Buying a NIB game for me is a once a decade thing probably, and I saved a while to buy GotG Pro. I wouldn't have risked that kind of money if I thought there was any chance of me ending up with a brick in a few years. Just my 2 cents.

The current overload protection sometimes does not trigger on node board shutdown, coil, etc, and node board fails anyway.
One of the common problems presently, along with boards to get destroyed by some electrical voltage that is outside the specific circuit. Essentially, in some cases, no better than any previous PCB design. This could be corrected by independent fuse boards, but that has been removed from the PCBs in favor of the onboard "smart" monitoring that was referred. It is not all always that intelligent.

thanks for saying this because this the point that keeps going through my mind. To what extent should the repairability of a game be considered during it’s design even if it means some fancy features have to be omitted or done differently ? In my mind great innovation in design needs to include repairability as a key feature. With its prices, immobility and expected longevity, pinball shouldn’t be going in the direction of most other consumer electronic gadgets.

And in general the home pinball enthusiast needs a certain skill set to keep his or her games running. I think the easier a game is to diagnose and repair, the more pleasure the game will provide long term.

I only have one spike on location. Its back in my shop waiting on its 4th node to be replaced. This game cost more to keep running than the other 14 combined. Needless to say I highly doubt I'll be buying another spike system game.

Which game?

Spike I or Spike II? Are Spike I games earlier to work on than Spike II games?

I know I've replaced 2 node 8's and CPU on game of thrones. Paid for the second node 8 but I had it already for a year and a half.
mainly sucks, because It was down for about a week and half each time. I got a couple backup's now.

Do the other modern pin manufacturers (JJP and Spooky in particular) have more theoretical long term reliability in general based on the way they're built vs Spike II?

For WOZ to completely stop working the CPU, motherboard or ram would have to crap out. The good thing about that is there is it's not specifically made for them, so you can go and buy one off ebay in 10 years or possibly substitute it with something else. plus they are only like 30 bucks currently for a new mobo. I'd be more comfortable with the idea of replacing an SMD light on one of those boards on WOZ. most of the other stuff on the driver board like transistors, look like through hole.
Haven't really had any failures besides lights, so I haven't investigated it to much more then that. Like previously stated they give you schematics for everything.

The parts for CGC as a whole seem a lot cheaper for the consumer to buy. I didn't like the idea of one big ass board. Thought it was gonna cost like 800 bucks to replace, but the price is only 300, it's mainly a light board anyway. Not real sure about the CPU board on that one, kind of looks like a Arduino. I think this would be a lot easier for some to replicate 10-20 years from now. The driver boards, think there are 3 on MMR have some easily repairable parts on them. plus you have planetary sourcing parts for these games because that's what they do.

everyone else is using p-roc which from my understanding is a set of universal boards. TNA, P3, ACNC, Houdini? Kingpin? If we are using throw away boards I'd be much more inclined to go this route. pinball life sources parts for spooky, and it makes it easier for the end user to get ahold of them.

the parts for spike change every couple of games, they are all proprietary and it's all throw away. apprx. 5 years after the game is off the line, parts for the game stop being made. As soon as distributors run out of parts... that's it. If you have a broken WWE then....

Wow, that's really concerning. I'm looking at getting a NIB pin in the next few months, and was considering a Stern SW Premium, but I will likely look more towards JJP (Dialed In looks good) or a TNA.

nothing wrong with getting a star wars, just sell it in a few years

Love this proclaimed 10 year shelf life because the guy in the PNW read a book about SMD. These games will not self destruct in 10 years.

Love this proclamation that some guy said on Pinside.

Love all the fortune-telling in this thread!
But if you can throw some good tech-talk behind it, you might win!
How does anyone know what technology will be like in the future? They dont.
How does anyone know how long a board will last? They don't.
How does anyone think they look smart acting like they know these things? They...
Well, you get the picture. How many games, over all the years of pinball (electronic era, for discussion) have become obsolete, especially one from a major manufacturer?
Personally, I ran into an Atari Middle Earth that compenents and boards were too hard to get working well, and made it go away. Other than that, Everything has been fixed!
I find it impossible to think that all these Sterns are self-destructing in an irreparable way in 10, 20, or whatever number makes you scared, years.

xTheBlackKnightx is easily one of the most knowledgeable and expierenced guys on Pinside. If he’s worried about these things we should not dismiss them off hand.

think you guys are missing the point.
a lot of stuff can happen that might change the way we feel about spike in 10 years, but this is where we are right NOW.
also no-one said 10 years was the definite shelf life, obviously electronics can and do last a lot longer. I think he meant it more or less as an average to where something on the board will break, to where the whole board is now garbage. As opposed to older boards which are a lot easier to repair.
The majority of what I've been reading on this thread or writing is based on experience individuals. Not some dude that picked up a book, well maybe he picked up a book .

Ignorance is bliss or so they say.

Ghost busters.

I guess what really chaps my ass is the cost of the boards. There markup has to be 400%.

I must have misunderstood...

600% is normal factory multiplier. A new ECU for my 2001 Honda Civic costs $800-1000. If that's what you need then that is what you buy.

Adding a PC or SBC to make Multimorphic P3 work? That changes the math a lot. But long term the more general the solution the more likely it is to be around after a while.

I'd bet that one of two things will happen: 1) Someone will entirely reverse engineer the SPIKE II platform and sell it themselves or 2) Stern will release lots about it some day in the future so people can work on them.

I work industrial maintenance for a living. Every time I see quotes for machine parts it blows my mind. So at 600% stern pays $32.80 which sounds right.

It is disappointing that they are viewing replacement boards for defective boards they sell as a profit center at all.

That would be like General Motors making a fortune off car starters for brand new cars if the starter went out 9 weeks after ownership. “That car we sold them won’t work without a starter charge them a thousand bucks for piece of junk replacement.” People would go bonkers.

Tons of profit in car parts. Sure the warranty is longer, but these parts have LOTS of margin.

No doubt. But at least the warranty lasts for 50,000-100,000 mile’s of actual use. Often it is not the new car buyer that is taking the beating.

Taking a beating? What are you talking about? Stern isn't leaving anyone out to dry with the service and support. New pin buyers are being taken care of well beyond the warranty.

Well, in the post you quoted I was talking about the new car industry specifically. I would have thought that was rather clear since I said it expressly, guess it wasn’t.

As for Stern, are you saying no one has had to pay the price for node boards that people in this thread are claiming they are being charged when their boards go out? If so, where have the numbers come from and what is happening to the people saying they are being charged? Are you saying they are fibbing to us?

Warranty? Two months is not what I would consider to be a reasonable warranty on something that costs this much. What about the Pinsider that had to spend 350 bucks 10 months into ownership for a replacement node board? It should be at least a year in black and white, with an extended warranty as an option.

SERVICE PARTS (Spares) COSTS

If you're building something - say a clothes washer - then here are some build quantity thoughts:

Suppose your target building 1,000 units at the current revision for market. You actually have to build a large percentage more on the line, say 30% more based on reliability information.

These "spares" will have to be packaged, cataloged, managed and stored for the "service life" of the product. This adds directly to the cost of the 1,000 units you plan to sell.

Each revision will need its own set of shared/unique parts to be stored. What prompts revisions? 1) Parts availability. Manufacturers regularly issue "End of Life" warnings for parts they are done making. Users that count on these parts are usually offered a "one time buy" opportunity to get what they think they need to support this washer revision. 2) Better designs. Moore's Law has made giant leaps in price/performance for electronic stuff. People expect more and newer parts can do that faster and cheaper. 3) Manufacturing efficiencies. Improvements are constantly made to the "current" product that improve its price/reliability/manufacturability.

These spares have a large percent-contribution to the factory % markup, part of that ~600%.

The problem with pinball is that the customers expect the thing to work forever. If/when this becomes impossible then the customers will have to adapt. That, or replacements will have to be available through other avenues so they can keep it running. I'd say the ARM family of CPUs actually make this much more possible.

So: put down that cell phone and start studying electronics! ( - :

Another thing to keep in mind:

Remember that JJP Celeron motherboard I mentioned? You can't get one from JJP or Newegg. So what do you do if that fails? Start scrounging for parts to fix your 2013 WoZ? I'd say so.

Stern's stability hasn't forced this burden on their customers, as of this writing. You can pay "a lot" and keep moving or scrap it.

D Gottlieb you are the 2nd person on Pinside who has reported paying for node boards within the first year of ownership. Countless other reports are not consistent with that, including my own with 4 Spike games purchased. Not calling you a liar. I am curious who this pinsider's distro is.

You replace the motherboard/processor/memory with a modern, available one that will run the WOz Operating system (probably Linux) and program. That's the point of standardized computer parts. You don't have to change every piece of hardware when one piece fails. My netbook from 2011 will still run many flavors of Linux and if I needed to compile my own the information is available.

I have not had to obtain a node board yet. I was referring to a previous post that someone else had made.

The product was made to be platform agnostic. If it becomes a problem, JJP (or in another life.. someone else) can rework the kernel drivers and recompile if needed.

Luckily the security dongle JJP uses is easily hackable.

ok
I'll agree, he probably could of phrased it differently. but I'm sure your smart enough to read btwn. the lines.

I don't think we are going to see these issues come up for at least 10-15 or so years, after the game has come off the line. So I'm not telling people to get super worried. It's only when parts run out from the distro's.
Just think even now, unless you know how to pirate, you are screwed if you have a RFM and SWE1. That is if your CPU or motherboard go out. As you probably already know, Nucore is no more.

It's nice to think that some future pinhead will fix all these issue's for you, but probably not the smartest idea to bank on.
Circuits used in pinball machines are only getting more complicated, and using proprietary software making it even more difficult to replicate (not to mention all the revisions). Spike is on a stripped down version of Linux using an older kernel 2.6.30 (maybe updated?). Just like a regular PC there are device drivers, software, hardware that all have to work in unison to achieve the desired result.
found a pretty interesting write up from a guy who is a lot more familiar with Linux then I.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/spike-linux-details
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BusyBox

A system using this tech makes sense to use in cars because they sell millions, parts will probably be on hand for decades. For Tv's, their cheap who gives a crap if they break, just by another right?. Pinballs, they are expensive, prone to breaking just by looking at them wrong and they sell to a much smaller audience.

If enough people raised concern with manufactures, it might expedite the release of more information about the system as a whole. So people can start looking at the possibility of future repairs. I'm sure you've seen all the repair documentation older games have, things are bit more complex now.

Nicely said, hocus
Much better than the gloom and doom some speculate of

There are newer motherboards with newer/better CPUs that work. The processor isn't the key factor, the chipset is. I've swapped a newer MSI motherboard in to an original WoZ and it works fine. Loads faster, too.

The main thing that's dumb about JJPs off the shelf parts is they took a standard ATX power supply and changed a couple of the connectors when they could have left it standard and used an adapter for those two leads. Total pain in the butt.

Oh my. That shifts the table a lot.

Hum, there have been lots of chipsets. Do you anticipate trouble in the future finding this one in current-production motherboards?

Keep the info coming, I'm learning about machines I don't have regular access to.