(Topic ID: 79039)

What are your favorite methods for restoring legs?

By smellytongues

10 years ago


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  • 76 posts
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  • Latest reply 9 years ago by MikeO
  • Topic is favorited by 5 Pinsiders

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    There are 76 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
    #1 10 years ago

    First off, this post could probably go in the Restoration sub-forum but since it's an EM machine, I decided to post it here instead.
    I have a Williams Suspense and the legs are VERY rusted. It also looks like someone may have spray painted them at some point. I've got the machine working for the most part so I decided to start working on its looks. Last night I got some fine and also some very fine steel wool and began scrubbing the hell out of one of the legs. It does seem to get the rust off and also some of the dullness and I can see shining metal (chrome?) again. However, the steel wool method is a pain in the butt so I started looking into other methods that might save time. After all, I could just buy new legs but I'm trying to save some money. I already think I overpaid for this machine in the condition it's in.
    Tonight I tried two other methods on the inside of the legs. I figured the inside wouldn't be a big deal if these methods caused scratching, etc. First I tried a wire brush attached to my drill. I knew this would most likely leave scratches so I was careful to only do it on a small area (and on the inside). I just wanted to know how well it worked. It did remove the rust and it did scratch it up a bit more than I would have liked but I was surprised to see that the area that I did this on turned kind of dark grey. Maybe I took the chrome plating off? Oops...well, I of course didn't keep going with this method.
    Now I know I've read that some folks like to use aluminum foil and Coca-Cola. I found some other videos where folks were using aluminum foil and plain water. Since I didn't have any Coke on hand, I went with the water method. I found a pretty good explanation for why this should work better than steel wool here:

    http://www.robertscycle.com/chrome-clean.html

    I don't think I really used any less elbow grease than steel wool alone and the results were not really much different. It did seem to cause that dark grey that I saw with the wire brush. So again, is the leg missing chrome plating or something? Not sure...
    While searching around, I found some info from a guy that was using electrolysis to clean EM legs. If I get time this weekend, I'm going to give this a try. If not, it will be later in the week or next weekend. I will post the results here (or should I write a story/article?). For the curious, here is the info I found (from https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.games.pinball/LwFL82onmUA):

    ----

    I use an electrolytic rust removal process. This is a process that my
    friend, Kevin Wing, first prepared a set up for about ten years ago
    and I have been using it ever since. To get everything set up takes a
    bit of work. But once set up it is a breeze and does the best job
    with the minimum amount of work.

    Here is a good explnation of the process:

    http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/rust/electrolytic_derusting.htm

    I use a 36" piece of 4" schedule 40 PVC with a cap (flat face makes it
    more stable - I had to check several stores to find this instead of
    the domed caps) on the bottom for the container and have this standing
    vertical on end. You can buy this at any home improvement store.

    I had three 1/4" UHMW rings with a 4" OD and a 3" ID with three 5/16"
    holes at 120 degree spacing made to hold three 1/4" all thread rods
    thatserve as the core. I can have these made if anyone is
    interested. Probably around $15 a set plus shipping.

    Get three 36" long 1/4" all thread rods - steel erodes faster -
    stainless steel lasts longer - stainless steel is known to put off
    hexavalent chromium. You can get these at any home improvement store.

    Assemble all thread to UHMW rings with nylon nuts (as opposed to steel
    so they don't degrade as you use it). Attach the three all thread
    rods through the UHMW rings and space the rings about 12" apart
    leaving a leg on each rod. This holds to all thread rods at even
    spacing fully encompasing the leg.

    Attach a piece of 12 gauge copper wire with stainless nuts at the top
    of each all thread so they make a common core.

    Double nut a 3" long 3/8" stainless steel bolt with another piece of
    12 gauge copper wire and and make a pigtail on the wire and thread the
    bolt tight into the leveler hole of the leg. Thread a stick or dowel
    through the loop in the wire and bridge across the top edge of the
    PVC.

    Fill the container, about 2 gallons, with water and add 1 tablespoon
    of washing soda to the water.

    Suspend the leg in the solution being sure it is fully submerged.

    You will need a quality 6V battery charger to charge the system. It
    needs to have adquate amps to work. I have used a cheapy charger and
    it never implemented much derusting action.

    Attach the black clamp from a 6V battery charger to pigtail that is
    attached to the leg.

    Attach the red clamp from the charger to the common wire at the top of
    the all threads or one of the all threads. (you did wire them all
    together double nutting them to make them a common core, didn't you?)

    Plug in the charger and let it work for 4-6 hours. If the leg is
    touching the core you will see the meter peg/ground and need to
    rearrange the leg so it does not ground to the core. It will read in
    the realm of 4 to 8 volts over the course of the process.

    After the 4 to 6 hours, unplug the charger and pull the leg out. The
    light surface rust will be eaten away and will buff off with a wet
    sponge. Never use a scotch brite pad or steel wool, no matter how
    fine. It will scratch the surface of a chrome finish. Dry the leg
    off and then follow with a buffing with Mothers Mag Polish paste.

    This process will give you the best results with the least effort.
    You don't have to deal with the acid in the Lightening Rust Remover
    and other similar products. I spend three minutes setting up a leg in
    the tank. I spend 5 minutes taking it out of the tank and buffing the
    loose rust off with the sponge. I spend up to 10 minutes polishing
    the leg with Mothers. As soon as I take one leg out I put another on
    in to cook.

    I used to have pictures of the equipment I use for this on John Wart's
    site until it crashed. I can take new pictures and send to anyone
    interested. If you go through any volume this process really works
    well but takes some investment in parts and time to get it set up.
    Once you get it going you have to monitor the rods as they will
    degrade through the process and need to be replaced. Also, the
    washing soda solution will get very grundgy and ineffective over time
    so it will need to be removed and replaced from time to time.

    This process will not overcome extreme pitting. The lighter surface
    rust is where this process really shines. In the end, it makes any
    plated leg look as good as possible. I run all the plated legs that
    come through my garage through this process.

    Mike O.
    Team-EM

    One post further down, Mike O. says:

    I meant to say add 1 tablespoon of washing soda per gallon (2
    tablespoons in this case) to make up the solution.

    Mike O.

    ----

    If you also check out that stovebolt link, you can read more about it.
    Sorry for the long post. My question here though is...
    What method do you prefer and why? Have you tried more than one method?
    Just thought I would spark a discussion here.

    #2 10 years ago

    If a wire brush cannot remove the rust, I just buy legs from the vendors that have piles of them for five to ten bucks apiece at shows such as Expo, TPF and Pinball at the Zoo.

    #3 10 years ago

    I use a media blaster with recycled crushed glass to remove any and all rust,

    #4 10 years ago
    Quoted from MrBally:

    If a wire brush cannot remove the rust, I just buy legs from the vendors that have piles of them for five to ten bucks apiece at shows such as Expo, TPF and Pinball at the Zoo.

    Given the amount of work involved, that's probably the best thing to do. My wife gets a bit unhappy about me spending money on things like pins so I have to try to save where I can so that I can hopefully talk her into letting me buy another.
    The wire brush did remove the rust but left lots of scratches. I'm hoping the electrolysis works well and makes it easier. Plus, I just like to engineer things like this. You know, like those Rube Goldberg machines from elementary school. Maybe I just like to spend time alone in the basement...

    #5 10 years ago

    I forgot to mention that I already have things like a variable power supply, etc. so the electrolysis shouldn't cost me very much to get going.

    #6 10 years ago
    Quoted from smellytongues:

    Given the amount of work involved, that's probably the best thing to do. My wife gets a bit unhappy about me spending money on things like pins so I have to try to save where I can so that I can hopefully talk her into letting me buy another. The wire brush did remove the rust but left lots of scratches. I'm hoping the electrolysis works well and makes it easier. Plus, I just like to engineer things like this. You know, like those Rube Goldberg machines from elementary school. Maybe I just like to spend time alone in the basement...

    I do the electrolysis thing you describe with old coins (mainly ancient Roman stuff) just using discarded electronic power supplies. Old coins are not plentiful as pinball machine legs. There is something to be said about the time value of money. Believe me, I'm one cheap SOB.

    #7 10 years ago

    also...what's with the dark grey? Did I accidentally remove some chrome plating or are these things not even chrome?

    #9 10 years ago
    Quoted from smellytongues:

    also...what's with the dark grey? Did I accidentally remove some chrome plating or are these things not even chrome?

    If the Chrome plating is gone, which is clear. You could be down to the nickel plating, which is less bright than Chrome plating. Worse the nickel is gone and now you are buffing metal.

    #10 10 years ago

    Legs which the chrome is lightly pitted, I give a good rub with #0000 steel wool and polish with furniture paste wax which contains bees wax. The wax help keep it from further rusting.

    If the inside of the legs are rusty (Outside is OK) then I'll wire wheel the surface and follow with a cleaning of Naptha or thinner. Then a few coats of Rust-Olium primer to the inside of the legs. Then cover with gold flake lacquer, then a few coats of clear laquer.

    #11 10 years ago

    A lot of work when you can just buy a new set...

    #12 10 years ago

    http://www.pbresource.com/legs.html

    My favorite method for restoring legs.

    #13 10 years ago

    For the purists, most aftermarket legs don't have the finish that nice original legs had/have. Gottlieb were plated to a mirror finish. I have seen one high end aftermarket company that would do that, but only in Williams styles. I think a set of their legs were 3-4 times the price of most of the PBR type. I love PBR, but there is no disputing there are trade offs for the sake of economy on some plated parts.

    #14 10 years ago
    Quoted from DCfoodfreak:

    A lot of work when you can just buy a new set...

    I know. I know. The problem is I already need a new set for another pin because it doesn't have legs. If I buy 2 sets I'm in the doghouse for sure so I am just trying to see what people prefer for restoration. I agree though that at some point you have to draw the line at how much time and effort is being put in and just buy a set. I actually enjoy the work though.

    #15 10 years ago

    dare i ask, what it would cost to sent the org legs off for a rechroming??? but im not sure id want to know :0

    #16 10 years ago

    Not one person is going to say. Oh man look at those brand new legs that don't have the same shine as the originals. Not going to happen and it would never be a deal breaker on a expensive restore.(at least for me) To me old legs go into storage for later use or to give away later to help another person out.

    #17 10 years ago

    "What are your favorite methods for restoring legs?"

    My "favorite" method: Buying New Ones

    My "Second favorite" method is cleaning up decent ones with a ScotchBrite Pad with some Naval Jelly Rust Remover and hose off, followed with another Scotchbrite Pad and some Chrome Polish, then finalized with Millwax (has a cleaner in it) and a cloth.

    FYI: I only use Millwax from shining up Chrome/Steel/Metal parts but never use it for Playfield protection because of the cleaners in it and it is a weak wax to boot IMO.

    Ken

    #18 10 years ago

    Aside from re-chroming and purchasing new ones, what has worked for those who have legs that are now bare metal?

    #19 10 years ago
    Quoted from Rat_Tomago:

    Not one person is going to say. Oh man look at those brand new legs that don't have the same shine as the originals. Not going to happen and it would never be a deal breaker on a expensive restore.(at least for me) To me old legs go into storage for later use or to give away later to help another person out.

    I'll take nice original over new any day for my Gottlieb EM games. The 31" repros that PBR sells are a great alternative but are not quite the same flange dimensions as original and expose the wear mark on the ambient body from the original legs.

    Mike O.

    #20 10 years ago
    Quoted from jasonsmith:

    Aside from re-chroming and purchasing new ones, what has worked for those who have legs that are now bare metal?</blockquote

    I use a hammer tone paint or epoxy paint on legs that have lost their original finish. Sand them down, tack them off, and then paint. pick your favorite color.

    Mike O.

    #21 10 years ago

    I use a chrome wheel polish, with the medium scotchbrite pads. I follow this with the same polish and a towel. Replace the levelers, with new ones. Then get them back on the machine.
    When new legs are put on an older EM machine with plenty of patina, the new legs really stand out. IMHO.

    #22 10 years ago
    Quoted from jasonsmith:

    what has worked for those who have legs that are now bare metal?

    Be sure to use a primer prior to painting,self etching primer would be your best primer of choice.
    As MikeO said a hammered finish would be a nice way of refinishing them,as it has the benefit of hiding small imperfections and adds a nice look to them.

    #23 10 years ago

    I HATE that hammertone color on legs, coin doors and coin chutes. I had to stare at it on my Abra Ca Dabra for 8 months. To each their own.

    #24 10 years ago
    Quoted from Rat_Tomago:

    I HATE that hammertone color on legs, coin doors and coin chutes. I had to stare at it on my Abra Ca Dabra for 8 months. To each their own.

    I agree Dan. I'll be taking care of that problem in the near future.

    Ken

    #25 10 years ago

    Just take a look at the Evapo-Rust thread here. It works pretty good.

    #26 10 years ago

    I use Lightning Rust Remover. It costs $51 a gallon shipped and you can re-use. Soak the legs for an hour, rinse them off with water, dry and wax. Wear safety equipment and follow directions.

    http://lightningstrip.us/rust.htm

    smellytounges,
    When you come down to Elmwood next time bring your rusty legs with you and we'll get them looking like new again. While they're soaking we can play a few games.

    #27 10 years ago

    bump

    #28 10 years ago

    I picked up some Evapo-Rust last night. I decided to give it a try. It sounds like it will work pretty well. I have a busy weekend though so might not get to it until Monday night. I will be putting together a container using PVC to put the legs in to soak. I have everything I need...just need to get time to do it now.
    I still want to experiment with electrolysis though. I might do that next time just to see if it works...I'm curious.

    #29 10 years ago
    Quoted from Rat_Tomago:

    I had to stare at it on my Abra Ca Dabra for 8 months.

    Least you could have done was put new ones on it before you sold it.

    #30 10 years ago
    Quoted from EM-PINMAN:

    I'll be taking care of that problem in the near future.

    Quoted from EM-PINMAN:

    My "favorite" method: Buying New Ones

    Yep. Easiest way bar non.

    #31 10 years ago

    Here's a leg-dipping contraption I made and used a couple years ago. Seemed to work OK.

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    #32 10 years ago

    That's pretty much what I use if the legs are really bad Dirtflipper. I don't wire the legs like that. I just keep the level of Evapo-rust a couple inches down on the leg tops. Tops are rarely heavily rusted in my experience. I just wear rubber gloves and reach in to grab one leg at a time.

    #33 10 years ago
    Quoted from stashyboy:

    That's pretty much what I use if the legs are really bad Dirtflipper. I don't wire the legs like that. I just keep the level of Evapo-rust a couple inches down on the leg tops. Tops are rarely heavily rusted in my experience. I just wear rubber gloves and reach in to grab one leg at a time.

    Dirt's set-up is just like mine except I use a 3" pvc cap and no wire (I like the wire idea). I leave my leg levelers on (up in the tube) and since I cut it 36" two legs with leg levelers gets me within an inch or two of the top. I use a nail puller to lift them out.

    #34 10 years ago

    buy new ones.

    #35 10 years ago
    Quoted from Hazoff:

    buy new ones.

    No and you can't make me

    #36 10 years ago

    I second the buy new ones!

    #37 10 years ago

    I used the soda and tinfoil method and was blown away by how well it worked, myself. I think I used Pepsi.

    #38 10 years ago

    This is my setup.

    PWO3435.jpgPWO3435.jpg
    #39 10 years ago

    Hi,

    IME, The Evapo-Rust or similar method works well unless its rust with heavy pitting. In those cases I think a new set of legs is warranted.

    -Mike

    #40 10 years ago

    On legs I soak and get clean but there's pitting, I throw those on the back of a game. Most people don't even look at the back legs of a game especially when you have other games standing next to it. Two good ones on the front and a couple pitted but clean ones on the back. Just my approach........because new legs are so $$$$$$

    #41 10 years ago

    I hate cleaning/refurbishing legs. I'd much rather use new ones, but when most EMs are in the $300-$1000 range, it's really hard to justify throwing that kind of money at the game (especially with shipping costs on top of the per leg cost). So I use new legs on higher-end titles/restores, and keep the hand-me-downs for use on other games. Over time, enough decent spares end up in the stash to re-use. And if it's just surface rust and such, they really do clean up fairly well. And the repros aren't an exact match for certain era legs, and I'd rather have original/correct, even with some patina, given the choice.

    It's easy to overspend on redoing a game and then just end up underwater on it. I always buy and use new levelers though.

    #42 10 years ago
    Quoted from Rat_Tomago:

    This is my setup.

    PWO3435.jpg 38 KB

    Ok this comment and pic made me laugh pretty hard. Awesome.
    Yesterday I put together a 3" PVC tube with and end cap and then a clean-out cap on the top (so I can screw it shut). I filled it with Evapo-Rust and put a leg in. We'll see how it goes...

    #43 10 years ago
    Quoted from Rat_Tomago:

    This is my setup.

    PWO3435.jpg 38 KB

    That can't be Plano, home of the (don't call them alleys) "rear garage access roads" where garbage is picked up. Of course, in the Detroit ghetto where I grew up*, we also had them.

    * wife, as well as exes, may debate if I have yet to grow up.

    #44 10 years ago

    i hear natural beach sand is a great solution...

    legs.jpglegs.jpg

    #45 10 years ago
    Quoted from MrBally:

    . Of course, in the Detroit ghetto

    Canton has alleys?

    #46 10 years ago
    Quoted from newmantjn:

    Canton has alleys?

    Where I grew up, young man.....

    #47 10 years ago

    Westley's Bleach White works great for cleaning non-painted legs.

    #48 10 years ago

    That^^ and purple power or super clean too.

    #49 10 years ago

    For a concours restoration to a 70's-80's Bally you must use OEM legs. The repops are better than nothing but are not the same dimensionally.

    It's pretty-easy to tell if the machine has repop legs because the contour of the legs is not the same where it attaches to the cabinet. You can see where the original leg was vs the new one because the repop is a little smaller.

    Every repop leg I've ever bought is like this.

    If you are doing a complete cabinet repaint or using protectors, then you can get away with it easier.

    The other difference between OEM Bally and the repops is at the bottom where the feet screw-in. OEM had sharp coners at the bottom where it was bent to shape and is drilled and tapped while the repop legs are rounded with threaded inserts.

    Definitely not desireable for a purist doing a correct restoration.

    #50 10 years ago

    I'm lazy so usually buy new ones! Otherwise Rustoleum hammered paint looks good on EMs especially and does not take much surface prep at all.

    There are 76 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.

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