(Topic ID: 124633)

Weird WH20 White water issue


By newdos

4 years ago



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  • 33 posts
  • 11 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by Crash
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P4170014.JPG
white-water-solenoids.png

#1 4 years ago

Hi Guys,
All help appreciated - just finished shopping my white water and I have got a weird problem. Every time a ball ejects from the trough into the shooter lane it triggers a gold rush action as if a ball had gone into the lost mine. I have tested everything I can think of to no avail. All switches and optos test fine with no ghost switches appearing on the matrix. Banging the playfield for vibratation tests doesn't cause the action to happen either. I have reflowed the opto solder on the mine, and the mine itself works fine ie. ball in, opto detects, and solenoid ejects.

It worked fine before the shop

Real Mystery this one HELP!!!!!

Cheers Kev

#2 4 years ago

What happens if you unplug the opto for the mine, and then trigger the shooter lane switch?

#3 4 years ago

still happens - just found if I disconnect the ball serve solenoid and manually eject the ball it doesn't happen - work that one out!!!!

Cheers Kev

#4 4 years ago

had a rethink - thought I had done this and wasn't sure - disconnecting the mine opto stops the issue as well so it just gets weirder!!!!

Thoughts??

Cheers Kev

#5 4 years ago

Short between those 2 switches? You check the wires very carefully?

#6 4 years ago

nah cant be a short because when the opto is connected it works as it should???

#7 4 years ago

Just so I have this straight, when you go into switch edge test and place a ball in the shooter lane it registers as switch 53 (shooter) and when you drop a ball into the lost mine popper it says switch 61 (whirlpool popper)? Have you dropped a ball in the lost mine during switch edge test to verify it registers the correct switch?

But when you start a game and a ball goes into the shooter lane you get the lost mine animation and sounds? Does the lost mine popper fire to clear the ball? Something isn't right if it's correct in the test but not right during a game.

What's weird are these switches aren't on the same row or column. So that leaves a wiring issue or a switch tab touching metal. If it's a diode issue then both switches would be in the same row or column. Sometimes it's another switch in the affected row or column causing the issue. But since these switches aren't related, it's something to do with a shorted wire somewhere.

I'd look over every switch (above and below the playfield) for something touching metal.

#8 4 years ago

2 diff'rent switches are causing one switch to fire...makes me think they are crossing at some point.

#9 4 years ago

Probably a bad diode which triggers the other switch. Check switch matrix and see if it is in line.
Had the same sort of issue on another switch once. New diodes solved it.

#10 4 years ago

ok - in the test matrix all switches and opto register as they should and no ghost switches show up. the lost mine in game play works as it should. All that is wrong is when a ball ejects it triggers the lost mine animation as if a ball has entered it. I have since found that in solenoid test mode if i activate the eject solenoid the mine popper activates as well but not the other way around????

ah a thought if the ball eject triggers the mine popper that will block the opto triggering the mine animation so question is now i think what is causing the eject solenoid to trigger the mine solenoid ????

#11 4 years ago

also now found that during game play, every time the ball serve or the outhole solenoids fire so does the mine popper!!!

Cause ?????

#12 4 years ago

Then I'd look for a metal solenoid tab (more than likely the lost mine popper) touching metal. Follow the wiring under the playfield to make sure there is no wiring pinched under something. Did you plug the right connectors back correctly. Look at the wire colors on both sides of the connector to make sure they match.

Then look at connectors J107 and J130 on the power driver board for anything suspicious. Reseat them and try again.

#13 4 years ago

all checked no visible shorts and connectors all on properly!!

#14 4 years ago

I believe that you have no switch problems, only solenoid problems. If the lost mine popper triggers, it will block the opto, trigger that switch, and the game should try to clear the ball it thinks is there.

If the ground side of the lost mine kickout was shorted to the outhole or ball serve coils, I think they would all fire together when any one is fired. This fact makes me think you could possibly have a board problem..? So I have a suggestion about how you could try to rule that out.

Disconnect J130. This is the controlled ground to the three solenoids in question, which are numbered 01, 02, and 03. Put the game in coil test mode, firing solenoid 01 (Outhole) on repeat. Set your multimeter to test for continuity with an audible buzz. Probe from ground to J130-1. If I understand correctly that the TIP transistors complete the connection to ground, then when the game is firing solenoid 01, your multimeter should buzz. If this works as I describe, this just proves that my understanding is correct and the rest of the tests will be valid. If this doesn't work, then my method is probably just flawed.

You should be able to similarly test solenoid 02 (Ball Serve) at J130-2 and solenoid 03 (Whirlpool Popper) at J130-4. These should all work correctly, since your game is able to fire each of these coils.

Now to test something that seems to be malfunctioning. See if J130-4 (Whirlpool popper) is grounded when the game fires solenoid 01 (Outhole). That's what you describe is happening, but with the playfield wiring out of the equation. If J130-4 grounds when it shouldn't, I say you've got a board problem.

If you do have a board problem, my first guess might be ribbon cables. My second would be the 74LS374 at U5. That's the component that interprets the MPU signals to turn on the transistors for solenoids 01-08. At the very least, physically inspect that chip to verify that you don't see anything weird.

white-water-solenoids.png

#15 4 years ago

Cheers will start doing some testing with the multimeter and report back

#16 4 years ago

OK so I have metered between J107 pin 3 and J130 pins 1, 2, and 3 using the solenoid test for each pin, on repeat, and they all fire independently at the board level, as they should, so I guess this must be wiring loom issue somewhere. Is there an easy way to buzz the loom out with a meter or do I have to trace the loom for the short ?

Cheers Kev

#17 4 years ago

You can see from the page of the manual I attached above that the wiring is really straightforward. We're talking three individual wires that run from the board to a coil. Is there continuity between the ground wires at those three coils? There shouldn't be...?

#18 4 years ago

Think I have found the issue - DOH!!!! school boy error as well, on my part - knew it would be!!!!. I haven't had chance to fix this and test it yet as busy working but just noticed this - can you spot the mistake and P4170014.JPGdo you think this will be the cause??

Cheers Kev

#20 4 years ago

Well I hope it's not bad to feed power to both connectors...

#21 4 years ago

will let you know lol!!!!!

#22 4 years ago

Seems like something that could easily happen to me, haha. Good luck!

#23 4 years ago

I dont think a bad restore for a 'Amature' guy !!! see what you think

http://www.pinballinfo.com/community/threads/white-water-shop-it-has-begun.12675/

Cheers Kev

#24 4 years ago
Quoted from newdos:

I dont think a bad restore for a 'Amature' guy !!! see what you think
http://www.pinballinfo.com/community/threads/white-water-shop-it-has-begun.12675/
Cheers Kev

Ah I was just pulling your leg!
been following your restore since day 1!
great work.Glad you found the problem

#25 4 years ago
Quoted from urbanledge:

Ah I was just pulling your leg!
been following your restore since day 1!
great work.Glad you found the problem

HAHA!!! thanks man will be able to push on and finally finish it properly - wow! so you been following that in the states yeah ???

CHeers Kev

#26 4 years ago

Oh wow. I had to think about this for a while before it made sense, but now it totally does!

I was thinking the power wire incorrectly connected to the ground lug was carrying coil power straight from the source, but it's actually not. It would definitely blow a fuse when that coil turned on if that was the case.

The misplaced power wire essentially is still providing coil power downstream (outhole and ball serve), but it's doing it through the popper coil. That totally explains everything that you're seeing.

I've learned something from this thread. If someone ever posts again with these symptoms, I'll probably be able to identify the problem in no time!

#27 4 years ago

a learning curve for us all !!!!

2 weeks later
#28 4 years ago

I hole i can go on this thread to talk about what i think a little issue.
I recently own this pin and my question is about the switch contact when the ball comes from ramps and goes to flipper. Normally the contact must switch on the lamp when the ball roll over?
Switch contact are ok. Rom bug? I have L-4 rom
Thanks

#29 4 years ago

Ha! That VUK solenoid fires when a ball is ejected into the shooter lane which interrupts the opto and the game thinks there is a ball present. Also, make sure there is a diode on that new VUK coil. I don't see one from your photo.

#30 4 years ago
Quoted from colonel_caverne:

I hole i can go on this thread to talk about what i think a little issue.
I recently own this pin and my question is about the switch contact when the ball comes from ramps and goes to flipper. Normally the contact must switch on the lamp when the ball roll over?
Switch contact are ok. Rom bug? I have L-4 rom
Thanks

there is only one lane lit on whitewater at all times. you roll over the lit one (moveable with the flippers) and score the associated value. there is no light all lanes type thing on the game.

#31 4 years ago

Thanks my friend it's just the opposite of a MM.

#32 4 years ago
Quoted from Crash:

Also, make sure there is a diode on that new VUK coil. I don't see one from your photo.

WPC games have the diode on the driver board, so no need for one on the coil.

#33 4 years ago

Wow, after all these years I guess I never noticed that.

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