(Topic ID: 242695)

Weird Problem Gottlieb King Pin


By Lathroum

5 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 18 posts
  • 9 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 months ago by Lathroum
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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0King-Pin-SCM-2 (resized).jpg
King Pin Ball Count (resized).jpg

#1 5 months ago

Bought a neglected Gottlieb King Pin... so I got it sorta up and running... it starts a game... but it has a weird issue... if you hit an outhole or a drop target it andvances the ball count to the next ball... originally when I got it running, it would start a game with no scoring or flippers... does anyone have a pic of the Ball Count unit and the switches on it... i think the switches on mine are not right... as in what should be open or closed... also... I think a plastic insulator that pushes two of the long leafs is missing... THANKS

#2 5 months ago

OK... so I have narrowed it down more... every time you score more than 500 points on a shot it will advance to the next ball... any ideas?

#3 5 months ago

Anyone?

#4 5 months ago

That’s a tough one.

#5 5 months ago

So you have a schematic? Is there a common switch for the 500 and 1k relays, the kickout holes (which score 500 or 1k) that’s also in common with the ball count unit?

Seems like that would be odd but maybe there’s some back-door path where power is getting to that add ball-count switch.

Could it be as simple alternatively that a switch under the playfield is too tightly gapped and the vibration from scoring is causing it to close? Just thinking out loud.

#6 5 months ago

I've got a Pin Up. I'll try to take some pics for you tomorrow.

#7 5 months ago

I do not have a schematic...

checked the ball trough switch and it seems fine... it only happens on high scoring... does not happen when I manually hit the scoring units in the back box...

Mostly happens on the kickout holes and the drop targets... like every time....

#8 5 months ago
Quoted from Lathroum:

Mostly happens on the kickout holes and the drop targets... like every time....

The drop targets, kickout holes and rollovers mostly fire the B/500 point relay or the C/5000 point relay. Does the Ball Count advance if you manually trip either one of those?

It seems likely that you have a short somewhere which will be a little harder to resolve. Here is the Ball Count circuit:
King Pin Ball Count (resized).jpg
Use this to narrow down where the short might be. For example, if you block the switch on the O/Ball Return relay in the red box with a folded piece of paper, does the problem go away? If so you know that the problem is in that part of the circuit.

Another way to find shorts is to turn down the lights and look for sparks between contacts when the Ball Count unit advances.

If the problem only happens when scoring 500 or 5000 points, there's likely a Score Motor switch involved in advancing the Ball Count at the wrong time. Another approach might be to disconnect the Score Motor service jack, hit a 500 point target, then manually turn the Score Motor slowly to see if you can figure out which switch stack is active when the Ball Count advances.

The whole time you're poking around, look for bare wire, bent solder tabs, solder blobs, etc. that might get unrelated things touching.

/Mark

#9 5 months ago

Hi Lathroum
I refer to Your post-1 --- "the fault happens when we hit an Outhole or a Drop-Target". And in Post-2 --- "everytime we make MORE than 500 points in one shot". A pin has only one Outhole - the one between the flipperbats - see here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1374&picno=43168 these are two Kickout-Holes, worth 500 or 5000 points. On the Drop-Targets I read "scores 500 points, lit target scores special or 5000 points". So does the fault happens when You hit an Drop-Target worth 500 points ? Does the fault happens when You make an Kickout-Hole worth 500 points ?
Here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1374&picno=7424 I see bumpers "score 1000 when lit" --- You get the fault - ONLY when the bumper is lit ? Also I see "lit outlane scores 5000" --- You get the fault ONLY on a LIT Outlane ?
In the backbox You have the L-, M-, N-Relays worth 1000, 100, 10 points. Be careful - wear rubber gloves or use an wooden stick --- manually activate the L-1000-Point-Relay --- do You get the fault ? When You do this manually activating - does the Score-Motor makes a turn ? (I think: The motor does not turn.) As MarkG I am interested on the question "does the fault happens - AND at this time the motor turns ?". Greetings Rolf

#10 5 months ago
Quoted from RonSS:

I've got a Pin Up. I'll try to take some pics for you tomorrow.

Spare yourself the effort. King Pin and Pin-Up share a theme and a layout, but they are dissimilar in wiring, especially regarding this issue.

#11 5 months ago

The problem happens whenever the 500 or the 5000 relays are tripped... I did this by hand...

OK... I found a score motor switch on the bottom stack where it is marked 2... every time it it activated it moves to the next ball.... is this supposed to happen? Also when I drain a ball the score motor also spins? is this correct?

#12 5 months ago
Quoted from Lathroum:

I found a score motor switch on the bottom stack where it is marked 2.

Is it NC and does it match the wires for 2B in post 8 snippet?

#13 5 months ago

Hi Lathroum +
I am tired - I go to sleep, till tomorrow. The JPG shows the Score-Motor-Switches at position-2. The 2B switches are on the lower level (below 2C-switches). We see that 2B-switches are actuated in the very end of a turn of 120 degrees - while 2C-switches are much earlyer actuated. Can You name the switch ? At least "fault happens early (or late) in a turn (of the motor turning 120 degrees)" ? Greetings Rolf

0King-Pin-SCM-2 (resized).jpg
#14 5 months ago
Quoted from leckmeck:

Spare yourself the effort. King Pin and Pin-Up share a theme and a layout, but they are dissimilar in wiring, especially regarding this issue.

Good to know, thanks.

#15 5 months ago
Quoted from Lathroum:

I found a score motor switch on the bottom stack where it is marked 2... every time it it activated it moves to the next ball.... is this supposed to happen?

No. Is the switch you found normally open, the outermost switch in that 2B stack, and between the blue-black wire and orange-white wire? That resets the A/Reset Completed relay and should be unrelated. The other switches in that stack should all be normally closed so they shouldn't activate something when they open. If you block that switch, does the problem go away? If so, that switch is part of the problem but we still need to figure out how that's connected to the Ball Count unit.

Quoted from Lathroum:

Also when I drain a ball the score motor also spins? is this correct?

Yes. The Ball Return switch in the drain activates the O/Ball Return relay which starts the Score Motor.

#16 5 months ago

The switch I found is normally closed... I found a few other switches on the score motor that were not opening when they were supposed to... I think from it sitting so long they got used to being in one position... so I adjusted those... still no dice... so I will check every switch on the score motor and see what else I can find... When I isolated that one switch it did not advance.... I have now noticed it advances the ball any time the score motor is engaged...

#17 5 months ago
Quoted from Lathroum:

checked the ball trough switch and it seems fine

Does the problem happen if you put a piece of paper between the trough switch contacts?

#18 5 months ago

I think I got it!!!! a combination of switches not opening on the scorer reel from having sat so long and intermittent issues with the ball drain switch and the trough switch... also had a few weird slam switches... specifically the one on the coin door and the one in the back box... so they are wired shut...

Appears to be working... now to clean it up and replace bulbs... and see what I can do about the crappy back glass...

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