I know, I know. EVERYONE keeps bringing this up in every thread, but I figured I would make an official "I'll never buy another NIB Stern again until recent title's codes get finished/revisited" thread.

Of course "finished" is subjective to each individual, but you get my point, guys. We've been bitching long enough, and as tempted as we may be with the new Stern products, we must make a stand with our dollars and not support Stern's current trend of releasing really cool pins with abandonware code.

So I'm,are this thread to 1) Show Stern the large portion of their consumer base they're souring and rejecting with their bade code practices and TERRIBLE PR. And 2) to write our names down to hold us accountable to our claims that Stern will not get a other dime from "us" until they have addressed these issues and become more "ethical" (as ethical as a business model can be) in their releasing practices.

Enough is enough. They need to see this list of consumers they're losing.

Will this little collection of names make a huge enough dent in Stern's dottom line to make them "care"? Maybe, maybe not. But at least it's on record, haha. Anyways.....

I'm Ryan, and my last Stern purchase was and will be X-Men LE Wolverine until they're coding and PR practices improve! Until then, any $$ I have to spend in this hobby WILL go to other manufacturers.

Releasing games with promised modes that aren't there MONTHS after release is a horse of a different color.

I'm well aware of the current code updating world we live in, and there's no qualms with that. It's to be expected. I'm not expecting manufacturers to release with 100% finished code, I'm merely saying that leaving code unfinished months/years after the fact after its been released and they've gotten the necessary feedback ad ignoring it and moving on without telling their consumers the future plans for said games is awful.

Jersey Jack TALKS to their customers/the community about their code issues and lets us know what's coming up and what's being addressed. JJP is also making their first game, so it's expected to be rough getting off the ground. I will have less slack cut to them for TH

Stern has been around for a long time, and should know better being the "elder statesman" in the business. They need to do their best and COMMUNICATING with their customers past just the pin that's currently out. Want to stop all the constant nagging questions about code updates to your previous games? Update them!! Can't update them because there is not enough manpower to support it? Then SLOW DOWN.

I see the point you're trying to make, but I feel in this case your application of comparison is not apt to the situation.

You're confusing PR for marketing.

Stern's marketing is awesome. They know how to tease something to get e community to talk about it, release subtle hints about upcoming releases through the background of FB posts. They have their shit together on that

Public Relations is the connection, communication and rapport they have with their consumer base. Granted, their DIRECT consumer base is the distributors, of which I am not, so the distribs could be getting great news and communication that they are asked not to leak as they are the ones giving the $$ straight to Stern. But to ignore the "rest" of us is just biting the hand that feeds.

Stern's PR is currently terrible with "us". They delete anything remotely critical or inquisitive about code on their FB page. They HAD to have seen the "revolt" that's happening about TF, XM, MET and ST (though ST just got released, hasn't been a month yet, so appropriate slack cut) yet they have said nothing to address the community's concerns. This is bad PR. The way the "public" is starting to view them is deteriorating. This needs to be rectified.

For the record, again: Stern makes some kick-ass games that have awesome layouts and feel great with some great recent art packages and light shows, but it all doesn't mean anything in the end without fun code. MET it great to play, but I'd get bored with it after a month. XM, thankfully, is ALMOST there code wise, and has yet to bore me, but its gaps in code are gaping. My issue is with code completion practices and their communication with "us".

And hiring one new programmer doesn't necessarily equate into all their old titles getting "finished", it might make future game releases more complete, but I would t assume they're there just to focus on old code.

Comparing the rate at which JJP updates code and Stern updates code is not fair.

JJP has one game to worry about, Stern has multiple. Granted, Stern has to sleep in the bed they've made, they've chosen to produce X number of titles a year, but they're also a larger company with more overhead, more employees, more $$ being spent of marketing, more designers etc etc etc.

The difference here is the COMMUNICATION of code goings ons. JJP's relationship with his customers is great, he lets them know what is planed, sometimes itemized, and tries to fulfill that. If he fails at it, he admits it and moves on to try and rectify it.

It wouldn't take much effort for Stern to release statements about TF, XM or MET to let us know what's in store for those titles. What features they still plan on updating in them and a very rough window of time. Just something is better than nothing. SOMETHING to let us know they are really listening to us, and not just deleting everything and moving on.

I would hope so. One of the reasons I decided to start the thread.

Lol. I would Flank, but I can't even read the text in it :/

"Launch goggles" are a big issue here. But I can't worry about "policing" other people's actions. All I know is that even though I love some of the releases after I got my XM, I have still held true to myself and never bought another NIB.

I must agree.
MET is obviously not finished, but XM had to have the entire rules philosophy redone after that first code release.

Having said that, the current XM rules are awesome and show great potential. Quality of the coding is still lacking, though.

I don't mess with twitter, otherwise this sounds like a great idea. Flood them with those hashtags and see what happens!

Distributors: as the poll stand right now (and assuming everyone lives up to their word on this), you're losing a ton of potential $$ on NIB sales/demand. Let Stern know about this, that they are costing YOU more potential buyers!

Assuming everyone that's currently "out" of buying new Stern NIB releases would buy just pro model Sterns, that's approx. (as the poll currently stands) $742,500.00 in money that possibly would have been going to you for NIB Sterns, but are instead now going toother manufacturers, or (worse for distribs) into older Titles.

And that's just one one release. Some of us got every NIB that Stern released but now aren't.

Whether that makes a difference or not, thought I would just quantify the current poll results.

Yeah. I feel like the scenario Indypin talks about has only recently happened with ACDC LEs. Tron LE's will also start taking a hit with the pro ramp mods now. The only thing missing is DPMB, and that's now enough to get me to cough up the extra $$ for an LE. With ACDC I really am baffled as to why LEs still sell for what they sell for, as that one is purely cosmetic. The premiums play the same and are fantastic at 4k less.

And to that point, the current process is simple....
-WAIT to play a new title in person. Enjoy the initial excitement when the game is announced, get into it and speculate, whatever you want, it's fun! But wait to play it before you order.
-if you miss an LE, you can grab a premium down the line, and still be confident that you like the product IN ITS CURRENT STATE code wise.

-ACDC LE went up in price
-XMLE went down in a big bad way
-TAV went down
-METLE went up shortly, but the premiums are awesome, so the METLE prices aren't out of control and are normalizing.
-ST we will wait and see, but I wouldn't think it would have a crazy appreciation....there's 700 of them!!

Ultimately, the market will dictate what you can sell for, so what do I know :/

Multiple games with code that's not finished, thus "codes". It might not be contextually or grammatically correct, but you get my point :p

I can only speak for myself, but I would LOVE a TWD pin, and even though in my head I will be screaming "TAKE MY MONEY NOW!!" I wouldn't move on it at all until 6-8 months after release so I can see how its code is handled.

Patience is a virtue, and I really want to stand by my feelings towards Stern on this.

Until then, I will GLADLY give my local route operators my hard earned $$, as I should, playing it until I decide.

This needs to be addressed to be clear here:
ACDC is the outlier here, but also proves our points....
ACDC is STILL selling NIBs and is in demand two years after release because the community sees that the machine is "complete".
ACDC prem is currently a NIB I would buy, but it is not apropos to this thread topic because the title is "complete" and had been given the necessary attention with multiple updates.

Nope. Don't expect anything, that way I'm never disappointed. I do HOPE, however, that distribs will see the numbers in the poll here and take that into consideration when getting supplied by Stern, and that should trickle down to Stern's bottom line.

Yes. To be clear, my intent for this thread is NOT to take $$ out of great guys like JJ and Trent's pockets, quite the contrary. I want them to SEE how many of us will not be in on the next Stern products so they can adjust the quantities they plan on getting accordingly to NOT take a hit and be more efficient.

The lower amount of machines bought by distribs will hopefully not be lost of Stern and they will adjust positively to rectify these issues rather than avoiding it, or "dumbing down" the products from then on out, which will just cost them (and the distribs) more money in the long run.....

Because JJP at least has great communication with their customers as it pertains to code plans and time frames.

Stern ignores.

Big difference.

I made no mention to JJP's code being more "complete" than the typical Stern. I'm not a JJP apologist, I have ZERO interest in owning a WOZ (just not fun play for me) so I have no vested interest in defending JJP. And I see that the WOZ code is woefully incomplete.

My comparison in giving JJP a little "slack" is because they COMMUNICATE well with their consumer base. They at least give their customers the comfort of communication, which Stern so far has not.

And ask me again about JJP after they've had a few games under their belt. If they show no improvement in code implementation after learning from their WOZ experience, the shame on them. And they too will be lumped into the same boat.

That's where the difference lies, in the common rapport of communication with their customers.

Lol! See you tonight at Hi-Life Johnny! You guys can all bust my balls then, I guess :p

Didn't bring up/say anything about distribs "dropping" Stern altogether, what I said was they would order LESS machines than they do now, thus costing Stern some money and making sure they as distribs don't get stuck with games they can't move efficiently.

Will do, I hate parking when I go to Hi-Life, but I guess I'll make due since it's for pinball :p

...............so you're tellin' me there's a chance? YEAAAAAAH!!

At least on my end I'm not. Can't speak for anybody else that voted, but I'm out until they apply better communications about code updates and prove that they intend on "finishing" game code within a relatively reasonable timeframe after a new release.

Danger mode exists and has in full capacity since a couple updates ago. Dark Pheonix animations were finished and implemented with the most recent update, but the rules therein are the "Lonnie Special" currently. The last Wizard mode in XM is all text at the moment though.

Deadpool mode, although not on the card, has been an option in the adjustments menu since day one, and still doesn't exist, heck, there's only ONE sound call out that is possibly Deadpool in the game code current.y, but nothing other than that.

Nope. Prices are at stupid levels because:
1) Pinball machine are EXPENSIVE to make, and in order for manufacturers to make this thing called "profit", they have to sell them for higher than it costs to make them. Expensive BOM + profit margin = more expensive.
2) Flippers taking advantage of the "new blood" in the hobby, bumping prices up incrementally on older pins because some new hobbyists might not know any better and they SELL at that price. Other non-flipper hobbyists see them moving at those inflated prices and, not wanting to "lose out" on extra money, sell their pins at the flipper costs. Flippers see this and raise their asking prices and rinse repeat until they reach a price point at which the pin will not sell, then the price settles.

Um, yes. I do/have. But unfortunately, I don't have a lot of money to throw into pins, so my purchasing an XM (which I enjoyed playing prior to purchasing) was a HUGE purchase for me, way above what I planned. And while the game is currently a blast to play and I love it, it is obviously unfinished/unpolished code. Knowing the crazy amount I spent on this luxury item, and seeing how it has turned out, THAT is why I don't plan on buying another NIB (if I'm ever fortunate enough to get the money to do again) until I see that Stern is standing by their products fully even after release and communicating effectively with their consumer base.

You are correct, No insult intended. Bad phrasing on my part, I have edited my post. I did not mean to lump every new hobbyist with a broad stroke, and I wasn't trying to be pejorative to new hobbyists, we were ALL new at one point. My fault for not phrasing correctly, sorry.

Don't feel bad. If you hadn't pointed it out, I most likely wouldn't have noticed it and others would have possibly taken it the wrong way as well. Trust me, pointing it out to me was very helpful, thanks!

This is a good point, Markmon.

I really hope that my initial intent for starting this thread isn't lost. I wasn't trying to facilitate an arena to just spew negativity. I just wanted to voice my concerns as a frustrated customer in hopes that MAYBE someone at Stern MIGHT take these concerns into consideration in future projects, because I know that the issue if "incomplete" code, slow code updates and poor communication seem to always pop up on this forum.

But I guess I should expect it, when people vent (including myself) we can sometimes veer off into negativity for negativity's sake.

I've stated a few times throughout this thread that I love Stern games, I'm not trying to "bury" Stern or anything like that, just trying to quantify that their current business culture of poor communication and coding habits might be costing them a little money in the future.

And you're right, Xmen is awesome as is, I think, I'm a huge champion of that game, as my forum activity will trumpet. But it still saddens me that XM could be an absolute top tier game if they took the time to clean some stuff up and add a few things to finish it out and bring it all together. Just frustrating is all, I would hope that you and other hobbyists could see that.

Not quite. It WAS correct when the card came out.

The release code, which the card was based on, had Wolvie mode separate from WXMB. But after the complete rules overhaul after the release code, the instruction card is no longer valid in some spots, because the entire rule layout has changed.

So while it is CURRENTLY inaccurate, it WAS correct when they made the card for the release code.

.....although it still doesn't excuse them from not making updated cards for the games manufactured after the release code overhaul.

Correct. In The release code you had to bear Mags right off the bat to be Able to collect the heroes. It was pretty bad.

About 9:45 in he starts the old Wolvie mode. Really nothing special, static background and all you did was constantly hit Wolvie x amount of times.....pretty boring.

This is 1.1 code, not 1.0, so by 1.1 they did away with the mandatory Mags MB .

I do really miss the original background music from the early code, pretty cool....

Sorry to derail, but what direction did you envision?

I assume it's in reference to the VUK to the warp ramp getting switched to a webslinger.

In my opinion, that wasn't a debacle, that was quality control doing its rightful job of making sure that everything works on the machine before its released. The VUK wasn't performing regularly as hoped, so rather than just keep it in there and let the owners get upset and bitch about it, Ritchie pulled it and put in something else more reliable. I have zero problem with that, kudos to Ritchie for standing by his product to the nth degree.