(Topic ID: 68330)

WE will not give STERN anymore of our money until codes are finished!!


By Rcade

6 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 319 posts
  • 130 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by PW79
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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Topic poll

“Will you ever buy another NIB Stern?”

  • Nope. They've lost my business for good with their poor code update structure and PR 55 votes
    15%
  • Not until they fix current codes that are clearly unfinished and continue to release games with more complete code 256 votes
    68%
  • Yes. Ive never had a problem with the current system. Play pinball!! 66 votes
    18%

(377 votes by 0 Pinsiders)

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There are 319 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 7.
#51 6 years ago

The phone or other software anology is misleading, XM LE shipped did not even keep score properly, would be like buying a phone that couldn't make a call.

Then the Xmas crap update had so many bugs would be like if you had a smart phone and every time you hit the stock app you get the weather app and every time you hit the map app you get the weather app, every time you hit any shot it was the same call out from Wolverine, how do you send that out as an update and how do you not fix it the same day you are told its a bug? Stern leaves the most buggie code for months, in fact I had to go back to the first code the one that doesn't count scores correctly.

Even the current XM LE code is better than it was before but still is worse than the code it should have shipped with. I mean this would have been ok as 1.1 but it's 18 months later it still needs a ton of polish.

Stop making new games and use your resources to fix the games you sold us.

If these were cars or smart phones there would be class action law suites by now.

#52 6 years ago
Quoted from BowlingJim:

So does anyone think Stern is looking at this thread and thinking that they should speak up on the subject of unfinished code?

speak up... hahaha, if they do care they will.... *** crickets***

#53 6 years ago

Never bought a NIB from Stern. First off, I want to play a game before I buy or at least have heard from folks whose opinions I value and trust, who have played the game. Fortunately I know enough folks who either buy NIB, or get a chance to play games right after they are released. Certainly part of that is checking that the game is coded well, as far as having right depth for an owned game, etc. Physical game play is critical as well, as like most of us, there is certain game play I like, and some I don't (as well as assessing it is too similar to something I already have)

Hearing all of this about unfinished code, just strikes me as Stern needing more programmers. They have to know games are incomplete and they need a philosophy of "no game will ship with incomplete code" (or at least has to be >90% complete, with a commitment to 'finish it'. This may mean that to keep up with the schedule of games they want to produce, they need a longer development cycle to insure that is the case. The cost of that incremental staff is not going to break the bank, and the payoff is going to be better games. The competition is heating up, and they better respond to this issue, since it seems to have become a major factor in buying decisions for many collectors.

#54 6 years ago

I got interested in pinball 2 years ago. 2nd machine was a NIB SM. Sold a nice IJ to fund XMLE. Code issues and continued missed commits soured me on NIBs. I was in position to buy an Avengers, but made the commitment to NOT buy a new stern until XM code was finished. So I bought a TSPP instead, then a WH2O. With ST coming out, I really wanted to bite, but I was expecting more code than the baseline modes and nothing else that's in there now. While I enjoy ST, it's nowhere near code complete so I passed on that and moved on to other things. Stern left 2 NIB Premiums on the table with me alone, in the last year.

Stern really needs to do the following:
1) Get a marketing team that can ACTUALLY market their games and communicate to their home collector customer base.
2) Get a Software Engineering Manager that can go in and address their software release process and work with the developers to make and meet commitments. This isn't 'cheap', but it's worth it.
3) Have a roadmap/plan for innovative technologies. If they could sprinkle in even minor innovative changes in each new pin they could stay ahead of the JJP curve.

-Wes

#55 6 years ago

Problem I have is Xmen is not even being worked on.

I will say I'm PRO only until they sort this code crap out. No more LE's which I've purchased the last 5 of. So they will still get some $$ from me if I like the pin and designer, but no more LE purchases after TFLE and XMEN losses. I do not expect pins to hold or keep value I just do not expect them to loose 20 % of the value either. In the case of the pro I figure the risk is loosing 10% and a few hundred dollars is alot better than loosing more than $1000.00 or more.

XMEN LE current market is about $5200.00
TFLE current market is about $4800.00

#56 6 years ago

metle will be my first and last nib stern machine

#57 6 years ago

i really want a Star Trek pin, waiting for the new code before i make a move (it better be good).

just curious, how many games goes to the collectors? 50% + ?
i said it before; the collectors are the future of pinball.
with all the new makers of pinball outhere, stern will fall behind if they don't change their ways of doing things and it will.
Right now stern found a formula that works for them and they are not going to change it as long as we buy them.

some people say jjp does the same thing, ok maybe, but at least jack speak to us and let us know whats going on, same thing for the other makers, except greedy stern.

''the only maker of REAL pinball games on the planet!!'' lollll....yeah, start by finishing your games first!!!

#58 6 years ago
Quoted from beatmaster:

just curious, how many games goes to the collectors? 50% + ?

An operator told me a Stern rep said 75%.

#59 6 years ago
Quoted from centerflank:

Spam Sterns facebook posts with this image and "any day now" We can do it!

images-1.jpeg 10 KB

I have seen many people say that they were blocked from the page after posting anything critical.

#60 6 years ago
Quoted from herbertbsharp:

An operator told me a Stern rep said 75%.

The only place to play a new machine is at someones house that just got it.... at least in the DC / northern va area. I assume that percent goes up a good bit every year.

The only way to find out if you like a machine is to either have a friend or pinsider that already dropped the 7k or you have to drop 7k to find out its a dud or that they dont feel like finishing the code.

#61 6 years ago
Quoted from herbertbsharp:

An operator told me a Stern rep said 75%.

if that is true, they better wake up!

i can already see my money going for the hobbit.

#62 6 years ago

Apparently Stern is so profitable now that they don't care about the sales that they are not making.

Stern has done immeasurable financial damage to themselves through lost sales. I was hoping that competition would improve their product. When a company is driven by ego verses customer service you get what we have here.

What does it take for a guy who really cares about his customers and his business to stand up in front of a room full of pinball fans, and address concerns with real solutions. Expo speech was embarrassing to listen to.

#63 6 years ago

Besides the obvious, a big problem is just how annoying it is to play an incomplete game over and over in the home. By the time the code is "finished" you might already be sick of the title because you've spent a hundred hours playing an incomplete game. That is why I won't buy a NIB Stern...or a known incomplete HUO Stern for that matter, until they are more upfront about what they are shipping and what their intended update schedule is. It's just too big a risk.

I'm probably not their target audience, but I've gone from owning two HUO Sterns to owning 4 total, having bought AVLE and ACDC Prem NIB in last 10 months...with MMr on the way. That MMr $ could have gone to ST, MET or XMEN, but the code and QC issues concern me, and MMr won.

I really love most Sterns, and hope they can better manage their releases and improve their PR. Otherwise they may find themselves with fewer sales.

#64 6 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

There is nothing *wrong* with MET's current code, other than not being complete. The initial code in XMen had so much wrong with it I wouldn't even know where to start (it wouldn't even keep score correctly). There is no comparison in my opinion.

That's what I was meaning, it's the incomplete code that has some Metallica owners frustrated. It just seems like a similar situation in that Metallica has been out for around 6 months and it's the same story of no communication as to when the machine might be updated and what might be included in an update (so it's the references to code in Metallica threads that seem to be frustrating us owners once again).

Overall I agree that these two machines were in two different ballparks. Xmen was just a disaster all around, and the fact that the machine could barely keep score when it first came out was brutal. The initial software that came on the machine was downright terrible to say the least. I played a Metallica when it first came out and overall I really enjoyed it, for sure a much more enjoyable experience when I compare it to playing Xmen for the first time.

#65 6 years ago
Quoted from herbertbsharp:

Foot massages don't mean shit!

I'm glad someone got the reference!

-1
#66 6 years ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

Besides the obvious, a big problem is just how annoying it is to play an incomplete game over and over in the home. By the time the code is "finished" you might already be sick of the title because you've spent a hundred hours playing an incomplete game.

I agree with this.

I think this is why you see a lot of people who bought a new release posting that they have pretty much "put the pin aside" until the code is updated, as they don't want to become sick of the title before it is actually complete.

#67 6 years ago

I love pinball machines and enjoy buying new ones, but I don't need pinball machines. I like all the guys at Stern, and realize they're just trying to get things done under impossible deadlines....but, I'm also a consumer and have to make informed choices. After TF and Xmen I wasn't going to buy any more Sterns until code and CQ improved...but then AC/DC proved itself on its own merits & I got one. I bought Metallica based on layout/toys/art/Lyman - figured I was good to go (and still do, honestly). I bought a HUO Avengers ...prob would have gone NIB if not for the TF/Xmen scenario at the time.

So, while I really enjoy my 3 most recent Sterns, the fact is that they all need updates. AC/DC's amazingly great but has potential for much more, Avengers is really fun but needs its wiz mode finished and a few minor things polished, and Metallica has lots to go. I really enjoy these games...and I'm not even as mad about their lack of updates as others...but even with that - it makes me not want to buy another until these are updated. I'll buy new Sterns if at the very least Stern finally starts communicating about these things instead of pretending they don't exist...and, of course...fixing them.

I would have purchased Star Trek already had there been more updates and/or communication.

-5
#68 6 years ago

I think maybe they are trying to update to the new tech, boardset, LCD, etc., that everyone was bitching about them not having. And trying to do it on the same staff, or just a few more hands.
If they were to TRY to communicate timelines, and, like JJ did MANY times, miss a deadline, everyone will bitch.
So, they just plow along trying to produce titles and games to play, and everyone bitches.
They could try to hire more help (price increase), or rush things out (buggy), and everyone will bitch.
So I don't blame them one bit for staying quiet, not listening to all the bitching, just keep on working.
This poll will mean nothing to them, it's all lost in the endless bitching here.

#70 6 years ago
Quoted from DNO:

I think maybe they are trying to update to the new tech, boardset, LCD, etc., that everyone was bitching about them not having. And trying to do it on the same staff, or just a few more hands.
If they were to TRY to communicate timelines, and, like JJ did MANY times, miss a deadline, everyone will bitch.
.

People will bitch no matter what, but I think even the WOZ owners really appreciate the communication, even when deadlines are missed.

#71 6 years ago
Quoted from DNO:

So I don't blame them one bit for staying quiet, not listening to all the bitching, just keep on working.

That's fine, if they kept their mouth's shut and pumped out quality code at an acceptable and predictable cadence, it would be GREAT. A lot of companies do that and NOONE cares. But out of their catalog of recent releases, the biggest issue they have right now is code, they are getting behind, and they don't have a way to dig themselves out. It's a vicious cycle. Preventable and fixable if they invested in the right folks, but they haven't. So.... There you go.

-Wes

#72 6 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

People will bitch no matter what, but I think even the WOZ owners really appreciate the communication, even when deadlines are missed.

I didn't, I just considered it lying to customers.
Then I sold my preorder.

#73 6 years ago

Neither JJP or Stern have impressed me lately, and the LCD is to blame. IMO

#74 6 years ago
Quoted from DNO:

Neither JJP or Stern have impressed me lately, and the LCD is to blame. IMO

Care to elaborate?

#75 6 years ago

I applaud you OP!

<soapbox>

I never understood why people took the following course of action:

1) Bought NIB

2) Complained about the incomplete code

3) Bought the next NIB

4) Complained again about the incomplete code

5) Repeat steps 3 and 4 ad nauseum

6) Justify the grievance by saying, "We DESERVE the right to complain."

While I'm not arguing that, I'm just pointing out how empty your complaint actually is. Do you think Stern cares if you continue to buy their product, incomplete, every time they come out with a new product? They still get their money. Why would they stop?

Vote with your dollars. Most of the time that's all a company cares about. I'm not talking bad about them for keeping money in mind, that's a company's sole purpose afterall.

But if they want to obtain the most money, completing the code as soon as possible is the best avenue:

Everytime you release a machine with incomplete code, I do not buy it. IF you complete the code near the end of its licensing, I will end up only being able to buy one used (since you do not make them anymore, ie. Tron, LOTR, Ironman, etc.). At this point, no money from my purchase actually makes it to you, Stern. So it's in your best interest to complete the code as soon as possible, so people can buy the machine while it is still actually being manufactured.

</soapbox>

#76 6 years ago
Quoted from playernumber4:

I'm done with them. And I still have my Xmen LE and hope they get it done someday. I pulled out of Star Trek over this, but am glad I went with AC/DC....and it will probably be my last NIB Stern. As new remakes and JJP games come out I will switch up to those and sell off my Stern games to make room. I'll probably keep AC/DC though.

Good points. I'm in the same boat. Sure WOZ is JJP's first game but they have been releasing steady code updates for the game throughout this entire year and are not only committed to finishing it but continuing to support the game down the road. That sells more games and already has me on board for WOZ and TH. It also helps that owners and those interested in the game get updates on the status of the code and that the programmers listen to feedback.

Stern needs to do a 180 and open a forum on their website to encourage discussion between owners / Stern staff and openly admit that they are committed to completing code as it seems like without code what's the point of spending $7k-$8k on a pinball machine other then having a nice box to look at? They did a pretty good job with releasing ACDC code updates and should do the same with their other games.

#77 6 years ago

I hate to contribute to another redundant thread, but I'm in the same boat as many. My only two NIB purchases were XM and MET. I really like both games, but am waiting for code to be finished on both as well.

I think MET will be fine because Lyman himself has a history of finishing off his code. If that isn't finished that becomes a direct reflection of Lyman because I'd like to think he has enough pull at Stern to do what he personally thinks is the right thing to do. If he doesn't, it'll be his first black eye in the industry.

On the other hand, If XM isn't finished off it is an indictment on Stern that the company policy is to work on new games rather than finishing off old. Stern does have unfinished games in the past to lend credibility to this view. In the end the only way Stern will put resources back onto XM is if customers keep that on Stern's visibility list by contacting them directly, and their distributor. This is how Transformers was finally fixed.

And this track record does also have me reconsidering any NIB purchases going forward. MMR is the only one coming up with guaranteed finished code.

#78 6 years ago

Instead of just posting here why not post on their twitter account @sternpinballinc and do a hash tag #fixyourcode or #finishyourcode

#79 6 years ago
Quoted from Pinchroma:

Care to elaborate?

The transition for Stern is possibly the reason they are getting so far behind on code. They could be trying to do it without losing the # of titles they create each year. Once again, my speculation/guess.
As for JJP, I think it was harder for them than they anticipated, and could have led to the YEARS of delay that I experienced firsthand, as I made my final payment before Dec. 2011. ...As production began.
Like I say, neither one impresses me much.
But as an operator, JJP's holding of my money for FAR longer than advertised cost me more than any Stern with sub-par code has.

#80 6 years ago
Quoted from flashinstinct:

Instead of just posting here why not post on their twitter account @sternpinballinc and do a hash tag #fixyourcode or #finishyourcode

I don't mess with twitter, otherwise this sounds like a great idea. Flood them with those hashtags and see what happens!

#81 6 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

They did a pretty good job with releasing ACDC code updates and should do the same with their other games.

This is one of the things that drove me crazy. Earlier this year it seemed like ACDC was getting updates on a weekly basis (I know they weren't that frequent but it sure seemed like it!) and my XMEN was just getting nothing.

#82 6 years ago

Add me to the list. XM was my first NIB and its the only reason I did not buy both MET and ST.

#83 6 years ago

Distributors: as the poll stand right now (and assuming everyone lives up to their word on this), you're losing a ton of potential $$ on NIB sales/demand. Let Stern know about this, that they are costing YOU more potential buyers!

Assuming everyone that's currently "out" of buying new Stern NIB releases would buy just pro model Sterns, that's approx. (as the poll currently stands) $742,500.00 in money that possibly would have been going to you for NIB Sterns, but are instead now going toother manufacturers, or (worse for distribs) into older Titles.

And that's just one one release. Some of us got every NIB that Stern released but now aren't.

Whether that makes a difference or not, thought I would just quantify the current poll results.

#84 6 years ago
Quoted from flashinstinct:

Instead of just posting here why not post on their twitter account @sternpinballinc and do a hash tag #fixyourcode or #finishyourcode

Because I don't do twitter, facebook etc....

#85 6 years ago

That's because they announce the re-run of ACDC..was a total cash grab.

Quoted from Buckman:

This is one of the things that drove me crazy. Earlier this year it seemed like ACDC was getting updates on a weekly basis (I know they weren't that frequent but it sure seemed like it!) and my XMEN was just getting nothing.

#86 6 years ago
Quoted from Nibbles:

Most people say they will never buy another Stern until the code is fixed, but as soon as the next super duper LE comes out every one of them will be tripping over themselves to put down a deposit.
"Not buying another Ste....OMFG, WALKING DEAD LE, it's soooooooooo kewwwwwwwwwl!!!!"

LMFAO

#87 6 years ago

Gentlemen, please, curb your enthusiasm!

mistake.jpg

#88 6 years ago

That kinda reminds me of the MM remake. OMG, MM sucks and isn't worth the price. I could buy 4 pins for that pirce and....whatzat......they're remaking it for only $8000 bucks!!! Take my damn money because this is the BEST PIN EVER!!!

#89 6 years ago

I was going to buy my first stern a couple years ago until I started reading about their unfinished code. How you guys can give them thousands of dollars for unfinished machines is beyond me. I'll stick to the older bally Williams titles.

#90 6 years ago
Quoted from Jakenjoi:

I applaud you OP!
<soapbox>
I never understood why people took the following course of action:
1) Bought NIB
2) Complained about the incomplete code
3) Bought the next NIB
4) Complained again about the incomplete code
5) Repeat steps 3 and 4 ad nauseum
6) Justify the grievance by saying, "We DESERVE the right to complain."
While I'm not arguing that, I'm just pointing out how empty your complaint actually is. Do you think Stern cares if you continue to buy their product, incomplete, every time they come out with a new product? They still get their money. Why would they stop?
Vote with your dollars. Most of the time that's all a company cares about. I'm not talking bad about them for keeping money in mind, that's a company's sole purpose afterall.
But if they want to obtain the most money, completing the code as soon as possible is the best avenue:
Everytime you release a machine with incomplete code, I do not buy it. IF you complete the code near the end of its licensing, I will end up only being able to buy one used (since you do not make them anymore, ie. Tron, LOTR, Ironman, etc.). At this point, no money from my purchase actually makes it to you, Stern. So it's in your best interest to complete the code as soon as possible, so people can buy the machine while it is still actually being manufactured.
</soapbox>

I agree but don't forget about this point.

Let's just say, for the sake of an argument, that Stern releases a Walking Dead pin. Okay, being a HUGE WD fanboy, I would be tempted to buy this one because of my love of the show and stories. But now wait a minute, I don't want to throw Stern or any other company my money until I know the code is finished and the pin is at least half way complete, so I wait. The code comes out and if it sucks, then I didn't lose anything. If the new codes comes out and it knocks it out of the park I say "Cool, I'm going to get this pin now." Well, when I go and try to buy it the price just went up 3-4000 dollars more because now the pin is awesome.

I recall this story from my feelings on Tron LE. I wanted the pin because I liked the theme, but I remember reading on pinside people bashing it on it's releases saying it reminded them of Funhouse and the spinning disc didn't work half the time and malfunctioned. So, I passed on one for 6400 bucks and now I can't even dream about having one without at least 10,000 bucks in my pocket.

I know this is part of the hobby, but maybe this will kinda explain why us hobby junkies do what we do. The pinball gods know this as well. :0(

#91 6 years ago

I love all the "MM code is complete". Well guess who did MM code. Lol

#92 6 years ago
Quoted from Indypin:

I agree but don't forget about this point.
Let's just say, for the sake of an argument, that Stern releases a Walking Dead pin. Okay, being a HUGE WD fanboy, I would be tempted to buy this one because of my love of the show and stories. But now wait a minute, I don't want to throw Stern or any other company my money until I know the code is finished and the pin is at least half way complete, so I wait. The code comes out and if it sucks, then I didn't lose anything. If the new codes comes out and it knocks it out of the park I say "Cool, I'm going to get this pin now." Well, when I go and try to buy it the price just went up 3-4000 dollars more because now the pin is awesome.
I recall this story from my feelings on TRON LE. I wanted the pin because I liked the theme, but I remember reading on pinside people bashing it on it's releases saying it reminded them of Funhouse and the spinning disc didn't work half the time and malfunctioned. So, I passed on one for 6400 bucks and now I can't even dream about having one without at least 10,000 bucks in my pocket.
I know this is part of the hobby, but maybe this will kinda explain why us hobby junkies do what we do. The pinball gods know this as well. :0(

This is correct, except with the advent of the "Premium" version the risk of the above happening has been reduced greatly.

#93 6 years ago

I have bought 6 NIB Sterns over the last 2 years and 2 other HUO ones in the same time period. I pre-ordered an Xmen LE. Agonized over the incomplete code for over a year. Current code is good, but unfinished. After this experience, I have passed on both MET (thanks goodness given its current state of code) and ST. I am also out for TWD, Muppets, Angry Birds, or whatever other theme they come up with, unless they finish their other games.

Pat Powers is awesome with Stern's hardware and warranty issues. Top notch to deal with very timely. The rest of their communication and PR sucks big time.

I am sick and tired of paying a lot of money to a company and get treated like I am an annoyance to them. My money is off to someone else for MMR.

#94 6 years ago

Some very good points in this thread. I am at wits end with the code situation on new Sterns. I know us pinheads are a tough group to understand but we are just very passionate about the game we love to play. For me playing a pin with a layout and design I absolutely love that has inadequate/incomplete code for years after I bought it just grates at me like none other. This was one of the reasons I pulled out of my STLE pre-order and instead went with MMR. It is the reason why I am hopeful about buying pins from other smaller manufacturers that are more in touch with what us buyers want most specifically fun and polished code to come along with the pins we buy.

I really enjoy the gameplay of many of Stern's recent releases and want them to get the picture that home buyers want adequate code out of the box and communication on when we can expect the game to be complete code wise. I may buy one last pin in the ST Pro. However, if they don't come through on another solid update for XM and timely code for ST I am going to have to stop buying even the Pro models because buyers of these pins deserve better than we have gotten on the last few Stern releases. I don't know what it will take for Stern to come to terms with this and fix the communication issues and long delays on much needed code for all of their pins. I know this is not just a choice that Stern employees can make on their own and this decision needs to be made by the higher ups. I just hope they correct the issue before they alienate too many of their customers.

#95 6 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

This is correct, except with the advent of the "Premium" version the risk of the above happening has been reduced greatly.

Yeah. I feel like the scenario Indypin talks about has only recently happened with ACDC LEs. Tron LE's will also start taking a hit with the pro ramp mods now. The only thing missing is DPMB, and that's now enough to get me to cough up the extra $$ for an LE. With ACDC I really am baffled as to why LEs still sell for what they sell for, as that one is purely cosmetic. The premiums play the same and are fantastic at 4k less.

And to that point, the current process is simple....
-WAIT to play a new title in person. Enjoy the initial excitement when the game is announced, get into it and speculate, whatever you want, it's fun! But wait to play it before you order.
-if you miss an LE, you can grab a premium down the line, and still be confident that you like the product IN ITS CURRENT STATE code wise.

-ACDC LE went up in price
-XMLE went down in a big bad way
-TAV went down
-METLE went up shortly, but the premiums are awesome, so the METLE prices aren't out of control and are normalizing.
-ST we will wait and see, but I wouldn't think it would have a crazy appreciation....there's 700 of them!!

Ultimately, the market will dictate what you can sell for, so what do I know :/

#96 6 years ago
Quoted from Apollyon:

Pat Powers is awesome with Stern's hardware and warranty issues. Top notch to deal with very timely. The rest of their communication and PR sucks big time.

I am sick and tired of paying a lot of money to a company and get treated like I am an annoyance to them. My money is off to someone else for MMR.

Sums it up about as good as anyone could!

So, 75% huh, well it looks like they are up shit creek then........

It appears the voters have spoken in this poll.......

I guess when they were the self proclaimed "only makers of real pinball machines in the world" they could get away with sticking it up customer's arse's.......take a look around fellas, its a new day and new options.....

#97 6 years ago

it is code, not codes...

#98 6 years ago
Quoted from Syco54645:

it is code, not codes...

Multiple games with code that's not finished, thus "codes". It might not be contextually or grammatically correct, but you get my point :p

#99 6 years ago

"I'll never buy a Stern with incomplete code again!"

[Walking Dead announced]

"SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!"

#100 6 years ago

This is the right idea, hitting Stern in the wallet. But unfortunately as long as people will pre order sight unseen games, weather or not they have finished code, there will be no incentive for Stern to deliver a finished product, or fix / finish code in a decent time.

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