they are still recoding wizard Of Oz as well so it goes the same, i don't think spending money elsewhere is an answer.
also, , and iphones, and computers, and anything else in the digital world are always code upgraded after actual release.

with NEW pins:
bugs, ways to curb game play, learning to de-exploit exploited found game strategies, and system needs will always default code upgrades. "testing" at the factory isn't the same as test in real world situations so they cant address everything before release.

I considered a MET and WOZ as my first new pin. The WOZ won because I trust them to finish it and support it. Can't say that for stern. It bothers me that they are totally silent on updates while I get immediate and good answers to my questions from the competition.

I really don't have a dog in the stern software fight but I don't think the general populus are asking that everything gets addressed before the game ships. Updates certainly are part of the process but releasing games well long before the code is even near completion is a completely different thing altogether. Seems like stern is giving its consumers a little of the R Kelly treatment if you ask me.

Great post!

Last NIB purchase METLE. Stern gets $0 of my money until they finish their previous games. I canceled my ST LE order because of this issue.

This hobby must be growing at a fast pace with new collectors entering the market, because Stern has burned a lot of bridges with their previous client base of LE and Premium buyers.

A popular national retailer has a slogan, "Expect more, Pay less". Somehow Gary got their slogan backward in his current business model.

got ya, i understand your argument now. I'm with you in that case...in that, the codes if they never get finished or addressed in the long future.

I'd pretty much held my tongue on this, but am now on the "Stern, be more open about the state of the code" bandwagon.

I regret buying Metallica. From now on I will wait until Stern puts out complete-ish code, then take a look at purchasing. I've been waiting six months for modes to materialize...modes that are printed right on the playfield. "Subject to change" and all that, I know. Fool me once.

It's my own fault for buying in too quickly, but it still sucks. Instead of getting Metallica early I should have bought two or three classic games, then made a more informed decision about Metallica later on.

It feels like I've wasted months of time waiting for code when I could've spent that money buying and playing other games instead. Never again.

As someone who bought an Xmen LE from the get go and I definitely appreciate Rcade's thoughts and this whole code thing. My frustration hit the peak last Xmas when that "update" came out for Xmen. Nothing like waiting months and months for an update and "kaboom"! After playing 1 game on that update I just about lost it and I turned to story writing to vent my frustrations:

http://pinside.com/pinball/community/stories/stern-code-updates-sometimes-good-intentions-go-bad

Xmen really did improve with the latest update back in the Spring, but it sure could use a little love to tidy things up. Xmen was a tough NIB experience but the best thing it taught me was to just chill out when a new machine is released and to not get caught up in all of the hype. I'd like to possibly get a ST LE but there is not a chance I'm buying right now, I'll wait a year to see how it all shapes up.

In a lot of Metallica threads lately you can sure see the frustration from owners and it sure reminds me of the Xmen fiasco.

All I know is that if Stern makes it a low priority to finish off Xmen then I've made it a low priority to purchase any new NIB machines.

I won't buy anymore from Stern at release time. I was actually considering a ST LE but I gave my head a shake and took a step back. If they come through with the code then I can always get a Premium. I am not in this as an investment so I am not worried about getting in on the LE's at release in case they go up in value. I have a feeling as the years go by, my Stern's will leave as JJP's games and others come in.

I have bought 3 NIB games.

Xmen LE which was an absolute disaster. Crap code. 4-5 aux boards, and I sold it 3 months in.

I used that money to buy ACDC premium, which was a known quantity at that point.

I also bought Metallica LE, because of the theme, layout, and promise of Lyman on code. I don't regret it but I am done buying NIB games unless the code is there or the theme is an absolute must have.

I have room for one more new game in my lineup. I want to support Stern but as a consumer that's spent nearly 20k on them in the last year and a few months I am not seeing the emphasis on customer satisfaction.

I'll join into the cause if it helps towards new codes, but it's mostly just an excuse to cover the reality of not having any money to give Stern in the first place.

I'm out also after XmenLE and MetLE NIB machines.

In my option there's a big difference between complete and polished code. I understand that it would be damn near impossible to ship polished code with the game.

But holy hell 1.5 years and counting for them to complete Xmen code (missing dead pool and numerous bugs) and now with the stall in Metallica missing a ton of modes...that's where I draw the line.

MMLE got my STLE money when I cancelled...can't wait to see what PPS has in the pipeline..

Later Stern..I'm out for good

Lost me until they pull there finger out in regards to code

I waited and waited since about March when I got back into pinball after a 11 year absence. I was going to buy my first NIB Stern. All I have head in the past 7-8 months is bitching, moaning and whining about code. I have played all these machines in the past 7-8 months and the only one that even remotely impressed me was AC/DC. The code on the rest of them sucks maple syrup through a coffee straw. There is no way I am shelling out 4500-8k for a new pinball machine that is crap out of the box. I wanted a Stern Star Trek LE so bad until I played the new Star Trek Pro and was like WTF is this POS?!?!? SDTM loop-de-loop warp ramp "gimmick", crappy match box car looking spaceship toy,craptastic code. Lets face it...Stern has only had maybe 3 bonafide hits in the past 4 years.(IMHO) Spiderman, Tron and AC/DC come to mind...maybe Ironman. I really hope Jersey Jack and some boutique tables push them into rethinking WTF they are doing.

It might be better to let your distributor of choice know you are unhappy, as they are Stern's direct customers. If distributors keep buying up games knowing they won't sit on them, what does Stern care? I don't know how much of pinside affects total sales of NIB Stern's! But I know I've purchased a few through various distributors over the years.

I own TFLE and XMLE. I feel TF is complete, as all modes and everything on the playfield works. The game could possibly use a little more polish, but I think the last code update addressed most of what people wanted. XM, although a lot better with the last update, still needs to be completed. I was a lot more optimistic that it would be completed a few months ago, and it will probably still get done, but who knows when.

I'm not the type to buy a pin every year necessarily, but I do seem to get one every two years or so. My next purchase will probably be a MMR, and after that who knows. I don't think I'll buy without playing anymore. Seems like there is always plenty of machines either left over with distro's or huo for sale. If another Stern comes out that I want and I miss the boat on an LE, hopefully they make a premium, or the pro is good.

For me, I like everyone else would like the code to be updated on Metallica more frequently if not complete by now. When talking with Stern over a month ago, I was told by Chaz that the next update would address the high powered sling problem that causes air blasts and destruction to my machine. I've been dealing with this for two months now and still no update! My sides of the cab have dimples all over, my spots have been bashed numerous times and drains down the outlines occur often! Still no fix! They should have addressed this by now, maybe with just a quick update to address this would have been great, still nothing! My first and last NIb.

Were not going to take it anymore!

Classic...

Purchased a Metallica Pro 2 months ago (First NIB game since TSPP in 2004).
Thought I knew what I was getting into with unfinished code on a game.
My family & friends grew tired of the game quickly & implore me to sell it.
I'm more patient & will wait but never again will I buy another Stern game either NIB or used with incomplete code.

For example Stern released Iron Man with pretty much finished code with only bug fixes in later updates, That's what Stern must get back to doing - complete code out of the box with bug fixes/tweaks to the code over the next year or so.

Was the main reason I was pissed off with ACDC.. All the rest have followed suit. If remakes become common place Stern are gone. They are in real danger of biting themselves in the arse.

I have purchased many NIB Sterns, I very much enjoy the experience. I decided one time to vote with my wallet after transformers. I cancelled my order on ACDC BIBLE.....ha ha jokes on me. I too wish Stern would place importance on code, we buy games with the expectation of product support. However I believe they will eventually complete the code on the incomplete games.

STERNs hardware support is great, you can contact them and they will help with all hardware issues. But they don't have a support contact place for issues with their software problems. The facebook page is a joke! And pinside isn't the place to contact them with our problems.
But I remember a few years ago they had a FORUM on their page. And for me the problems with STERN started as they closed that forum. I don't know why they did that but it was a very bad move, why do they have to hide? Perhaps they should think about to reopen it.
JJPs WOZ forum is a great place with nice people who help in everything and a place were the JJP team can address problems of the community direct.
And they don't have to answer the same questions again and again in personal mails, just once in the forum
That's the best marketing.

It's right on the STERN Page under community:
"This section will keep you up-to-date on all of the happenings in and connected to other members of the Stern pinball community. ........Want to chat with fellow pinball enthusiasts? Join our forum section, where you can chat about games, events and everything pinball."

But the forum isn't there anymore! It reminds me of some inserts. It's missing in the code ;P

I have purchased many NIB Stern pinballs over the years. The ones that I can think of are XMLE, ACDC Premium, LOTRLE, LOTR, FG, POTC, TRON, WPT, Monopoly, The last one I purchased was Xmen LE which was traded last month for a WOZ. I finally got tired of the code issues and will not be purchasing another new Stern until I'm convinced that they are comitted to completing the coding for all games they are selling. The money I was saving to possibly buy a STLE just got redirected to MMLE. If Stern is still not completing code after I get my MMLE I'll probably buy a Hobbit. If Stern thinks their lack of finished code is not costing them game sales I can assure them that they have lost at least two sales to me.

_{Post edited by pinmaniac : fixed typo}

Add me to the list - I will not buy another new stern until code is finished.

Buying a machine with incomplete code is not an option for me. Never was.
You can always get the machine later AFTER you see if the machine is nice or not. They never get rare or sold out. There is always some machine that you want for sale.. so why not wait?

As long as they can sell games like STLE for 8K+ with incomplete code and people still line up to buy them why should they change?

I'm done with them. And I still have my Xmen LE and hope they get it done someday. I pulled out of Star Trek over this, but am glad I went with AC/DC....and it will probably be my last NIB Stern. As new remakes and JJP games come out I will switch up to those and sell off my Stern games to make room. I'll probably keep AC/DC though.

I have purchased many NIB Stern's, most recently AC/DC prem & METLE. I had deposit on STLE but canceled. I too am fed up with them building incomplete / half baked games.

I purchased WOZLE & I'm in on TH too. I'm very pleased with JJP's start up company and the way they listen to their customers. Yes, they too are doing code updates, however, they are truly passionate on listing and preforming. I'm especially impressed with their WOZ forum, where the communication is open and free, plus they don't delete the comments.

Stern count me out too.

Kerry Richard

What Stern doesn't seem to realize is that their short term wins will lead to long term loss. Once burned, people will wake up and at the rate Stern is burning bridges they will soon find themselves on their own island. Good luck building bridges afterwards. I really like my TF which i bought with version 1.8. To me it seems 85% complete. There are still things that could be done to make it 100% but in all. I'm happy. With that said I had to wait 1 year and half before buying a used one. I don't think I'll ever buy NIB.

They had all that time to learn from the xmen debacle and ST ships with some of the worst software yet. They can't blame waison this time. I'm out!

My last NIB Stern was Tron. It was well after the release, but still the first run (3d and screened). I had played it enough on location to know I liked it, and I would have probably been just fine with the code in the same shape as the day I bought it. The updates since then have been polish in my opinion. I wanted a Transformers, but it didn't get into shape early enough. The hype had died in me by the time they updated it enough. MET was a fun shooter, but isn't there, and the hype died out. Star Trek is a great shooter, but again, totally lacking code.

So to me, Stern is stuck in this loop. It isn't just needing to complete code, it needs to complete it in a timely manner. If the hype they build up dies down before that code comes, the machine ends up being considered a flop.

And to the OP about PR, Sterns PR is actually pretty good. Star Trek was all over Pinside. Pinball nerds knowing a feature is there, but not knowing details sends us into a frenzy. It is by design that nobody at Stern walks into the factory and snaps a picture.

So it all comes down to setting expectations. My expectation is that the game will never be updated, so I need to be sure it is in a state I like when I buy it. That way anything else is a bonus. And if they put out a game that crosses that threshold with a theme I like, sign me up for another new game.

Spam Sterns facebook posts with this image and "any day now" We can do it!

images-1.jpeg

You hit the nail on the head. I'm so tired of hearing this sob story. Pinball sales have been increasing and this hobby has been growing constantly. This is very evident with all of the new start ups. There is money flowing.

So far Sterns model has been cut cost and increase price. They are going to keep pushing that until it breaks. Why would Stern spend more time and money developing a product when you guys are going to buy it anyways, whether it's good or not? Don't try to tell me people aren't buying either, because they are. The people who are "boycotting" Stern are very few.

The sad part is that most of the guys who are hard core about the code and rules of games are going to be here long after most of the new comers have come and gone. Stern can rebuild those bridges then when the market of rich guys that suck at pinball dries up. Right now those guys are a dime a dozen.

I'm out as well and I spend a crap load o' cash on new pins. At least JJP is selling a product that seems to be updating relatively quickly in comparison.

So does anyone think Stern is looking at this thread and thinking that they should speak up on the subject of unfinished code?

No, but I would imagine they wish they could delete it.

The text in the image doesnt matter, no one can read it, its too tiny.....I meant to type in the words when you post the image.....oh well...Im off to work...

edit-oops, looks like wolvy is dropping an F bomb LOL! Im gonna roll with it anyway

No. They are selling more games than they probably ever have. From a business perspective, they are doing something right. Remember that's what this is. This isn't a "hobby" for Stern. This is a business.

Well I suppose if someone wanted to push, Stern advertised with Star trek so many modes and such, yet the game was released without the modes, would that not be grounds to sue for false advertising? Maybe a class action suit could be launched, of course this would be expensive and take years but it may smarten them up to produce games with nearly complete codes.

By the time the litigation even got going, maybe even including a DTPA ("Deceptive Trade Practices Act") claim, Stern could remedy the situation by simply completing the code and satisfying the promises made to buyers. No point in any of that.....

This thread is what it should be all about.....if people quit buying these NIB's without code then Stern will have to adjust...

The next question is "do they really care"? Maybe they just don't care about the HUO market and are still focusing on the Ops and pins on location where they simply don't care when the code gets done? If ever? The casual on location player would never know.

In any event, I'd like to buy TWD, if it comes next, but it seems to me all they really have to do is open up some lines of communication and create at least a loose timetable as to when code milestones are going to be completed.....

We all see how its working with JJP now, its first pin, great service, phenomenal communication, interaction, input, output, etc.........and regular code updates (insert "JJP only has one pin in production here and Stern has an excuse blah, blah, blah....").........maybe they should at least attempt that approach, no?

Most people say they will never buy another Stern until the code is fixed, but as soon as the next super duper LE comes out every one of them will be tripping over themselves to put down a deposit.

"Not buying another Ste....OMFG, WALKING DEAD LE, it's soooooooooo kewwwwwwwwwl!!!!"

No, no, no.

Not even the same ball park. In fact, not even the same sport!

There is nothing *wrong* with MET's current code, other than not being complete. The initial code in XMen had so much wrong with it I wouldn't even know where to start (it wouldn't even keep score correctly). There is no comparison in my opinion.

I bought XM LE horrible code, still horrible IMO. Not even talking about the missing wizard modes but just the whole code and rules and call out (timing and context) need to be completely fixed.

I bought Tron because it's code was ok and it was really good, then Stern up and made it even better.

That's good really good for Tron owners, but the Tron code was already great, in fact I downgraded to the prior code just so I can play that before I upgrade to the new code.

But to have a game like XM LE with shit code and to ignore it while the polish Tron and AcDc code just pisses me off.

Almost to the point that I hope Stern goes out if buisness. I know that's not a good solution but I really dispise the way Stern won't upgrade the code to a competent level on some games and how the don't listen or communicate about the code.

I almost bought Hulk LE and ST LE but I hate the way Stern has handled XM LE I will never buy a game from Stern until they finish XM LE not just with a ton of modes, but actual good code and rules.

Foot massages don't mean shit!