Perhaps I should clarify my previous post.

They will be available to the 79 to purchase and if there are any left, they will be sold on the open market.

especially when bumper was the only avenue for any oz customers to buy a machine. it is really shitty jjp allied itself with criminals. too bad people in oz couldn't buy direct from jjp as an alternative. consumers like options but none was given down under. not only is jjp out 400,000 +/- in sales but their reputation in oz is damaged significantly because of this. nobody wins in this scenario except the crooks that represented jjp.

Secretly checked 'em, and failed that attempt xD

Does anyone know why there are still WOZ Emerald LEs not delivered and yet there are Ruby Red and standard editions out there? I thought the first 1000 LEs were the first to be sold? Just curious about this..

Wow, had no idea they didn't have an option, why couldn't they just buy from pinball sales direct? He didn't want to handle the shipping issues?

One would think that maybe JJP would have required some heightened escrow since it is overseas and there wasn't another option? How hard would it have been to set up a bank escrow account for customer funds?

Fyi, there are about 500 threads that address those questions Chad…..

So no quick answer. Ha

Games?
I thought the journey was the reward?

Standards were to be built/sold with the LE's, and no, there are no ruby reds being delivered yet save for few being sent out for shows. This has been brought up in other JJP threads.

Initially, I think all Australian purchases were direct with JJ. Only after a time did JJ appoint an Australian distributor, being Bumper. There was quite an outcry on the local Australian forums that such an agreement had been reached, and I believe JJ referred all his orders across to his newly appointed distributor.! The locals knew of Bumpers history and full stop didn't want to deal with Bumper, but in a sense they were forced to..

Hmm don't know about that Woka.
I brought from JJP and was never told to go thru Bumper at any time!
I stuck with JJP and have since received my machine from him.
Jack has always returned my emails within 48 hours, and was happy to help when I needed it.

I think that everyone that originally brought from Del (Bumper) would have received there machine by now also!
BUT maybe Del knew he was sick and decided to sell Bumper to look after himself?

Really the buck should stop with the NEW Bumper owners that originally brought the business from Del!
This is where it all went pear shaped. ( That was nothing to do with JJP )

I think all will be worked out in due time.

I emailed Jack himself back when it was first announced that he should avoid bumper. Shame he didn't listen!

If I wanted info, I would give the man a call.

So if he has 130k and going to ship 22 pins. Thats 5900 a pin no tax shipping to Aus included. Sounds like he is giving you guys a golden deal. But hey what do i know.

Not a golden deal.

That price is the original dealer price to Bumper. Jack is not helping out in any way other than agreeing to ship games at the price they were originally to be purchased for, but these will not be genuine 1/1000 LEs. Jack had sold those LEs to other people while still holding deposits from Bumper on those games. In most western countries you cannot sell the same item twice to two different people as that is called f***d. But Jack did.

Jack ripped off Bumper by failing to deliver against the order and keeping the $150,000. Notwithstanding that, Bumper had spent the customers' money expecting that Jack would deliver and Bumper would pay the balance to him from cashflow over time. Jack never delivered and Bumper got found out.

Nothing will excuse Bumper's misappropriation and that company will soon fold, but what is Jack's excuse for taking the dough and promising games to two different customers of JJP (Bumper and WOZ group) and not delivering?

The best way forward is JJP makes all 76 games and ships them.

Jeez...if this is so wrong and you have a case...SUE HIM.
...if you have a question...CALL HIM.

you the man

You know what I found interesting that these guys that have been ripped off by whoever have only come on the pinside forum to bag out JJ, how about instead of using a forum you have never supported before you take some of your Woz funded money you have and send someone to the USA to go and personally meet with JJ and hear it from the horses mouth, its not the Aussie way to bag a bloke out we normally do things man to man.

Sounds to me like Bumper paid a deposit on a bunch of games and DID NOT actually pay in full for a subset of games so they did not fullfill the obligations of the contract (I have no idea what the actual contract is/was). Huge difference from what you are claiming and how you are trying to paint this!

Some of you sure seem to have a warped sense of reality on the matter.

The way things work in the US (JJP is a US company) >> deposit paid for 77 games. Games are delivered after final payment on all 77 (or whatever the contract called for). If someone is in breach of contract (i.e. Bumper did not pay on schedule to JJP) then the other party is often releaved of obligations (i.e. JJP is free to sell those # of games elsewhere) and intial deposit dollars are to be refunded (or whatever the contract said; maybe forfieted?).

Sounds to me like Jack is being more than fair in the matter. He could still be on the hook to return the deposit money to Bumper, but is opting to still 'sell' 22 games at original dealer cost to your group of people that got screwed by bumper (keep in mind Jack could possibly end up donating these games to you if JJP ends up still being on the hook for the 130k to Bumper or those bumper owes).

What a nice guy! He should just send the 130k back to bumper and be done with this BS. You are entitled to NOTHING from jack or JJP. They have a legal obligation to bumper1 (or whatever the hell they are called).

ANYTHING Jack decides to do for you is putting himself and his company at risk of being out the 130k for those games. Do you get this?

Sorry, but nobody forced anyone to do anything. I get the hindsight is 20/20, but if Bumper had a history and noone wanted to deal with them, I would have simply not ordered one through bumper. (and if that was my only option, not ordered one at all until other options were provided). You guys and your pitchforks, heh. Again, it sucks, I hope the WOZ fund gets their games and you guys get at least some of your $$$ back after the sale, but christ..

Sorry, sounds like your wrong, see below:

Sorry, also wrong... If what i read is correct, Jack was given a deposit amount against X amount of games. If he is willing to take that amount and apply it to these games for the "WOZ fund" instead of letting that money get tied up in the courts over there, sounds like he is doing you a favor. Why should he take a loss for bumper screwing you guys over. I have yet to see any compelling argument.

You take the words right out of my mouth.

You Mensa! We stupid!

Oh please.....

i love torts, especially when they're fresh and covered in butter

torts-1.jpg

Thank you. This is it in a nutshell

Again, my heart bleeds for anyone who lost money, but frankly JJP is nuts for giving you 22 games to sell. Bumpers' creditors are going to come after JJP for the deposit, and JJP is going to be out the machines. It's beyond gracious for him to go out on this limb for the people that lost, to risk flushing away 130,000 bucks, and then he gets publicly condemned for doing so. You guys kill me.

Forgive them for they know not what they do...

Good idea. Jack....when are you coming down to Australia to sort this out man to man and explain to your Australian customers WTF went wrong?

This deal appears to be outside of your court system.

PinMike, can you send the Bottom Boyz out to have a chat with Bumper?

jjp is a saint giving away 22 games like that

saint-louis-marie-de-montfort-01.jpg

so go take it to Jack and off pinside! If you have not realized by now, popular opinion is that you are NOT helping your cause by continually bashing JJP in this situation>> only 3 weeks after he said to give him a few weeks and he will make things happen. If you can not see that the vast majority of people feel bad for you and the situation yet see the reality of whom owes who quite a bit differently then you need to wake up.

Jack is doing you a HUGE favor by sending you these games. It is quite simple and I am not sure if it is a societal/cultural difference btw OZ and US, but JACK does not owe you shit legally and him doing so is a pretty amazing thing. If I were him I sure would have way less incentive to help you out when you are trying to extort his reaction via blasting his PR.

Do yourself a favor. Take a deep breath, call jack and talk to him on the phone. Ask politely for a timeline of when games will be shipping and see what he says. Then keep it to yourself and give him a little extra leeway >> remember that he does not owe you ANYTHING. He had a legal commitment to bumper and not you >> sorry your laws are so messed up that you have no recourse on Bumper1.
If JJP does not deliver on the timeline he commits to then call him back and ask what is up. If things still are not progressing as promised then think about your next set of possible actions. You will likely quickly realize that you are in a no win situation and bumper is the one that screwed you. Calm yourself down again and call Jack back again to see what is up. It sucks, but blasting JJP over this situation is not doing anyone any help currently.

Your only card to play is that you will try your best to cause a PR nightmare for Jack if he does not deliver. You are playing that card VERY premature and hence leave little incentive for JJP to deliver anything.

$0.000, I don't pre order especially when there are no guarantees if I will ever see the machine or money especially from another country there are so many risks involved and I'm not willing to gamble $9000.......

Here are some of the risks that I have heard happen to people before:
Machine doesn't get made
Company goes bankrupt and you loose your money
Boat sinks with container that has your machine
Shipped to the wrong address
Machine is damaged in transit
Machine is stolen before shipped
Machine is stolen after shipping

To many risks for me to gamble $9k on, id rather just wait and if I manage to get one I get one if I don't so be it....... and my post wasn't a dig at woz people, but your coming on a forum bagging people out which could do more harm then good.

Everyone feels sorry for you guys that this happened and I have friends who have lost out so instead of running your mouth why don't you book a flight to America and go see JJ personally then you will get action.

I have no horse in this race, just reading everything and trying to make sense of it.
My heart goes out to playerone and anyone else in australia that got ripped off. Thats a lot of money and I would be more than pissed as would anyone else on this forum if that happened to them.
Trying to sum it up. Jack was paid for 22 games by bumper. Jack made bumper the australia distributer. Bumper went out of business. Not jacks fault. Jack said he would ship 22 games that were paid for and some more to sell down under to those that got ripped off if they wanted them. Jack promised pictures and updates.
It looks like playerone made this thread to push jack into giving the updates and pictures he said he would on another thread. Updates and pictures just take a few minutes to post. I don't think playerone is being a DB or being unreasonable.
as far as the creditors go, I'm not a lawyer, but he is shipping 22 games that were allready paid for. why would creditors go after him? Creditors might seize the machines once they get to australia, but thats out of jacks hands. he was paid for 22 machines and the most he can do is send them.
From what I heard, jack is a great guy and prides himself of customer satisfaction. Sounds like there are some die hard loyal pinballers in australia. I hope he does what he can for them.
also, I think its right for playerone to post this thread. its pinball related and someone might be able to help in some form or another. Why bash the guy? He's allready out a lot of money and gotten the run around for a few years. If you don't like the thread, skip over it. Again, why bash the guy? If I lost 9 grand on a pinball machine, I would be dropping f bombs all over the place if I were still alive. I'm pretty sure my wife would kill me in my sleep if I lost 9 thousand.

Legally he probably doesnt, but I would think morally he does.

Hypothetically, what if Jack had all the money from bumper ($400K?) for the 79 games, and Bumper folds.

Legally, Jack would not owe anyone anything, correct? He wouldnt have to ship anything or give anything back.

Would you still think, "Gee, what a great guy sending those poor chaps some games when he doesnt have to."

I'm not sure what lies where, but I know I would be raising hell if I sent someone 9K, and it just disappeared.

*No skin in this game, and all the above is, like, my opinion, man.

someone also said they saw a bunch of skids waiting to go out to australia. It would just take jack a minute to post a picture. He doesn't have to, but it might bring some peace of mind to those that have waited for 3 years and wake up every day hoping for an update.

What I'm saying is the LE owners financed the beginning and are still not delivered. I was offered a Ruby Red by a distributor so they are some available for sale now. Which I just simply believe the LEs should have been delivered first.
I bought a ECLEWOZ but feel for guys who have had a long wait. Sux for them

Let me see if I have this straight. 79 people in Australia paid deposits to a local distributor (this Bumper thing) for their WOZ orders. The money was sent to JJP, but the rest of the payments to Bumper were kept and never sent to JJP. So JJP never got full payment for those 79 orders, but received enough money to cover 22 games. So JJP is sending the 22 games to Australia in exchange for the money it received. And Bumper stole the rest of the payments.

If this is close to being correct, then JJP s doing what's right. And the Australians should be suing the @$$ off o Bumper, because that is the crook in this scenario.

Or am I way off about this whole thing? I have yet to see a concise outline of the basic facts.

Thats pretty much what I got from the thread. I think bumper sold the business to bumper#2, so thats a whole nother issue. But the aussies have said they are not suing anyone, they just want their machines or pictures(or it didn't happen) and an honest update. Since they've gotten neither, they created this thread. Again, I feel for them. Sounds like they are good people who love pinball and got screwed royally.

I would be doing a whole lot more than raising hell, but i would be doing it with the guy that stole my 9k and not someone further down the line.

It is like putting a down payment on a new truck with the local dealer, he folds and then you go blast ford on the internet and demand your truck. Frankly it is mind boggling to me. Why has bumper not been dealt with legally or otherways?

Maybe playerone can elaborate more on what is being done legally about the bumper situation. The analogy is a little off because the dealer might have folded, but he paid ford for 22 cars (out of 79)that weren't delivered.The dealership may have gone under, but those 22 cars were paid for and should have been delivered. Looks like the aussies are trying to salvage something out of this and are concentrating on the 22 PINs that were paid for.

I have to agree with Whysnow....for the life of me I don't get why JJP is getting attacked here publicly. I think hes doing all he should in giving the game amounts of what he received in payment from the company that STOLE your money! If you are all unsecured creditors you all sue and wait in line with everyone else who comes out of the wood work. It is pro rata here in Canada and I'm pretty sure in the US as well.

Well to be more accurate, it would be like paying the down payment for 79 cars and NOT the entirety of 22.

In other words, the manufacturer was expecting 79 sales at a price negotiated based on that total number. They now are being told they have to deliver 22 at that same wholesale price or else.

My point being that the beef is with the original seller and not the manufacturer.

22 is a PENTAgonal number.
22 divided by 7 (not 9) approximates the IRRATIONAL number Pi.

79 is the 22nd prime number. How about them apples
The atomic number of the chemical element gold (Au) is 79.

In the year 79 a.d. on August 24 (or 22?), Mount Vesuvius erupts, destroying Pompeii, Herculaneum, Stabiae and Oplontis.

I agree whysnow, the major issue is with the bumper fellow. What we also have to understand is that not every country sues at the drop of a hat. In europe, I believe, if you sue and lose, you are billed for all costs. Its not like the US where lawyers take a case banking on a portion of a settlement.
As for JPP being attacked publically, c'mon. I recall multiple threads on "why is my woz late" or " when is my woz being shipped". It seems all playerone is asking for is the pictures and updates that were promised on another thread. Updates on the 22 machines that were paid for. I read the other thread, at the bottom its says updates and pictures in a few weeks,posted direct from jersey jack. The question of has it been a few weeks is mute, it takes a minute to post a picture or give an update. If you're going to complain it hasn't been exactly a "few weeks" yet, then you might know how these guys feel when they were promised updates days/months/years ago.

I can't wait for thread part 3. Rumor has it that it's gonna be in 3D!