(Topic ID: 95786)
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Wizard of Oz
Jersey Jack, 2013
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Saddle River, NJ
Quoted from ek77:Are you sure Jack will come through how's the game you made payments on 39 months ago playing.
That proves my point that you don't know the difference between "speculation" and a "question".
Quoted from gambit3113:There was a ton of discussion afterward. Nothing else was ever said about it, and then someone noticed a few weeks later that the press release had disappeared from the website. I don't recall exactly what Jack said regarding it, and it if was here or at the WOZ Owners Forum, but it essentially boiled down to we weren't ever in the red and we are moving forward with production regardless of what happened.
Sometimes the truth lies in something a person won't say. Example, I'm not sure where you heard the investors pulled out but that's just not true. That's what I would say if it was bs.
Quoted from ek77:Are you sure Jack will come through how's the game you made payments on 39 months ago playing.
Man, you hurt my head sometimes. Slow down a bit and proofread what you wrote before hitting the Send Post button. You can blame a few on autocorrect but cabbage.
Okotoks, AB
Quoted from ek77:Are you sure Jack will come through how's the game you made payments on 39 months ago playing.
Actually really well up until a few weeks ago, I sent Pinchroma a PM last week but have yet to hear back.
Quoted from tracelifter:No biggie on the board, what was the problem with the game?
The original board in my TZ that holds the battery had acid damage. I bought that Rottondog board from you and after installation it wouldn't work in my pin. You graciously let me return it for a refund. It was a lot of down-time for the both of us mailing the box back and forth. That board you sent was gorgeous and I was hoping it would work. But . . . as I imagine people are aware, sometimes the voltage on a Rottondog plays havoc with some pins. At least that is what one tech told me. I had the same problem with one I put in a Phantom of the Opera. That thing smoked after playing it for awhile. Had the original board repaired by Butch Peel and it now works perfectly.
Mainly, I just remember you were wonderful to work with. Lot's of trust! I also remember your great sense of humor. I always look for your posts on here, knowing I'll probably get a good laugh. Well . . . enough 'personal' stuff from me. Now back to the fighting this original thread inspired. 
Gonna go and look on Netflix for "Tin Man". Thanks!
Mike
Quoted from gambit3113:Look, like it or not....like me or not.....Jack could clear 3 years worth of questions up with a snap of his finger and five minutes constructing a post on his own machine owners' forum. He has been telling everyone that the LE run is finishing up for damned near a year now. That's after he was two years late on production to begin with. The Aussies got royally screwed, and Jack made public statements and guarantees (for what a Jack guarantee is worth, see: WOZ Production Guarantees and History). Where is he? What's the deal now? Where are the 200-ish LEs that his own 60-90 day clock started about 120 day ago?
In the absence of information, speculation is what we got. Sorry. But that is true. People come sniffing around here looking for info on WOZ or Hobbit, and they deserve to know the whole truth of the matter. Not just the blown sunshine from the people that have given the company an eternal free pass just because he lit a fire for pinball under their asses. The Aussies are the ones with the equity in this particular issue. And the ones with skins on these walls. If they have differences of opinion about how to rectify their situation, they have the right to hash it out. But screw anybody spitting on someone that got caught up in this nightmare and telling them that they don't have the right to speculate or even demand some information.
I have nothing against you, and even agree with a good chunk of what you say above, i know very little about pinball other than owning one JJP pin and one Stern pin (and i like them both) just personally tired of reading the same thing over and over again and watching every JJP thread after thread get de-railed, regardless of who's to blame. I know this is an internet forum, so its bound to happen, but christ.... This is a new extreme.
Yes, if someone wants to look up info on WOZ, hobbit and beyond, there is a wealth of info on here... why spend so much time making the same arguments over and over and over again.
Sydney
Quoted from Pintucky:The original board in my TZ that holds the battery had acid damage. I bought that Rottondog board from you and after installation it wouldn't work in my pin. You graciously let me return it for a refund. It was a lot of down-time for the both of us mailing the box back and forth. That board you sent was gorgeous and I was hoping it would work. But . . . as I imagine people are aware, sometimes the voltage on a Rottondog plays havoc with some pins. At least that is what one tech told me. I had the same problem with one I put in a Phantom of the Opera. That thing smoked after playing it for awhile. Had the original board repaired by Butch Peel and it now works perfectly.
Mainly, I just remember you were wonderful to work with. Lot's of trust! I also remember your great sense of humor. I always look for your posts on here, knowing I'll probably get a good laugh. Well . . . enough 'personal' stuff from me. Now back to the fighting this original thread inspired. Gonna go and look on Netflix for "Tin Man". Thanks!
Mike
Tim Men, Tin Man is in WOZ.
Quoted from Spencer:Actually really well up until a few weeks ago, I sent Pinchroma a PM last week but have yet to hear back.
You sent me a pm? I don't have it. Just checked. PM me again with whatever question you have.
Very interesting to see that the name of this thread has been changed from
"We Want Our Games Jack Guarnieri" to "We want Our Games Jersey Jack Pinball"
Can a mod explain why this has happened. The guy making the decisions, the guy we want answers from is Jack Guarnirei. It is not an offensive title, it in no way defames anyone. Jack is a public figure who uses his own name to sell pinball machines. Using it in this legitimate context shouldn't be censored.
Why did this happen?
So, I'm not the mod who changed it but I understand why it was changed and I should have changed it. Personal call out threads are not allowed. Changing the title took out the personal call out nature of the thread title, though this entire thread is still a call out thread - that said I'm not closing it at this time.
Alkmaar
Yes, I can explain that since I made the change. The Pinside rules explain that we don't want any personal attacks on this site:
BE CAREFUL WHEN INCLUDING EMAIL ADDRESSES OR INSTANT MESSAGING ADDRESSES IN CONTRIBUTIONS, AND PLEASE DO NOT INCLUDE ANYONE ELSE'S PERSONAL DETAILS
Hence the edit to make this whole thread look less like a personal attack and more like a call for information.
Quoted from robin:Yes, I can explain that since I made the change. The Pinside rules explain that we don't want any personal attacks on this site:
Hence the edit to make this whole thread look less like a personal attack and more like a call for information.
Ok, I could understand that if the title inferred some kind of an attack. Eg.
"You are a **** insert name" or " where's my f****** game insert name you ****"
However the title reads as only a comment. Jacks full name in the title is important because ihe is the one making the decisions at JJP. It does make it more personal but it's certainly not an attack.
Quoted from Playerone:It does make it more personal but it's certainly not an attack.
I understand your reasoning but I stick with my decision to change the title. Who is to say this is solely Jacks decision? Maybe he also held accountable by someone? I know just as much as all of you do, but I think it's simply better to address the company and not just Jack.
Quoted from robin:I understand your reasoning but I stick with my decision to change the title. Who is to say this is solely Jacks decision? Maybe he also held accountable by someone? I know just as much as all of you do, but I think it's simply better to address the company and not just Jack.
No problem. Thanks for the opportunity to bring this issue onto a bigger stage. Even if Jack reneges on his promise to send us our paid for machines. Being able to share the story will help with the healing.
Quoted from Playerone:Ok, I could understand that if the title inferred some kind of an attack. Eg.
"You are a **** insert name" or " where's my f****** game insert name you ****"
However the title reads as only a comment. Jacks full name in the title is important because ihe is the one making the decisions at JJP. It does make it more personal but it's certainly not an attack.
I can tell you why they changed it. The owner of this website didn't like the personal asspect of it. Pretty simple and doesn't need a big back and forth about it. Continue on with the rage against JJP.
Quoted from Playerone:No problem. Thanks for the opportunity to bring this issue onto a bigger stage. Even if Jack reneges on his promise to send us our paid for machines. Being able to share the story will help with the healing.
The problem as we stated a year ago is not building or shipping the games we received $120,000 for -
The problem is WHO are the 22 specific people who will receive the games and why? Who makes that decision and how does that help resolve this completely? Who are those people?
The other people who gave Bumper money will not be made whole - they will have recourse to ask (someone) who is still in a viable business for their money or their games.
A year ago we were advised to do nothing and wait for the Liquidator of Bumper to ask us to return the $120k - we reached out to him without much response - surprisingly and he directed us to Rob Farrel who was then trying to receive the four games on the water and misdirect them to himself instead of those owners.
So we ask - can everyone who paid Bumper money on games agree who the 22 people will be who receive the games?
We see that there is some "plan" to sell these games and get the money and do what with it? Give it to who? Why?
The $120k may as well be donated to a Children's Hospital and do some real good.
We were legally advised to place the $120k in an account with the State of New Jersey and have the rightful owners come and claim it.
Building 22 games will not solve anything for the people who do not receive those games and who have no voice in how the 22 games will be allocated.
We cannot do that in any arbitrary way as we stated a year ago. We have tried behind the scenes to help in any way to resolve this to the best we can. There needs to be real movement and cooperation not hateful posts to push some "shotgun wedding" to force us to do something that is grossly unfair to the majority of people who gave Bumper their money. We are sorry for what happened and it hurts deeply.
Someone needs to legally organize the group of people who gave Bumper the money and present a plan with everyone in agreement as to how the solution/ games or money - will be distributed and everyone signs off on it, or votes on it, or something but it needs to be done in the same public way that we are subject to.
Quoted from robin:I understand your reasoning but I stick with my decision to change the title. Who is to say this is solely Jacks decision? Maybe he also held accountable by someone? I know just as much as all of you do, but I think it's simply better to address the company and not just Jack.
I agree on that Jersey Jack change as Jack is president and officially the company has your money unless Jack hid it somewhere
This entire thread is getting old as JJP should in some fashion answer these guys. I'm cancelling or confirming my Hobbit order has been cancelled today. I'll buy one only if this matter is settled and I do not plan on supporting Jjp until this situation is settled.
You people who defend JJP in this really disappoint me. There are so many better ways Jack could handle things and broken promises do happen, but the lack of being honest and somewhat transparent with his customer base is what is sickening
Quoted from JerseyJack:We are building and shipping what we were paid for. There are 55 games going to Australia in a few weeks - 22 of them are the paid for "Bumper games"
We will post picture of the games being built in process too - remember - pictures or it didn't happen.
fastforward to just past deadline:
Quoted from JerseyJack:Building 22 games will not solve anything for the people who do not receive those games ....
Quoted from JerseyJack:We cannot do that in any arbitrary way as we stated a year ago.
You mean "what you promised a MONTH ago"
Quoted from hank527:This entire thread is getting old as JJP should in some fashion answer these guys.
He did. Read two posts up from your post.
this is gonna get interesting real quick. i have a feeling not much work is going to get done today unfortunetely
Man, I don't see how these two posts from JJP can be reconciled together (though I agree that legally concursing the money with a court may be the best legal approach for JJP to take even though it is totally different from what was said a month ago - I would place the money in registry of a court if I were him as well based on everything I have read here). I almost feel like I should close this thread because this is about to pour out negativity from everyone and I'd rather Pinside not be involved in this dispute at all right now.
I'll leave it open for now and monitor the thread but try and minimize the negativity guys...we all can read and see the issue...no reason to lash out with bashing...
Quoted from lowepg:fastforward to just past deadline:
You mean "what you promised a MONTH ago"
backpedal.jpg 6 KB
I don't normally say this much and its a little childish and dumb but...... PWND!
Quoted from fatality83:this is gonna get interesting real quick. i have a feeling not much work is going to get done today unfortunetely
And I came to work early this morning too! LOL
Seems simple to me
All the Woz buyers get together and work out who paid what amount.
Have all this signed up so that the exact amount of funds can be allocated to each and every person.
JJP then divides the 120k into the seperate rates for each person and issues refund cheques.
Maybe as a sign of good will JJP offers a discount on any future JJP machine purchases.
There will be no monetary gain trying to ship and sell machines in OZ.
GST gets added on, shipping costs, capital gains on the profits, warehousing costs, delivery costs and organising transport etc etc etc. Not to mention collecting and banking money from sales. Getting a container delivered from the ship to a warehouse costs close to a grand. Then you have to store them say at 2-3k a month.
Tax wise a refund will not affect your income. If the 22 machines are sold for profit there becomes a grey area that the money is no longer a refund and becomes part of your income (not 100% certain on that)
Trying to sell will be more of a drama than anything.
Surprised the liquidator didn't take the money back. Lucky for the preorder people because if they did the preorder 79 would get absolute ZERO back.
Maybe Jack could sell the 22 in the US and give the extra profit as part of the refunds? Would be a good gesture.
Quoted from TigerLaw:Man, I don't see how these two posts from JJP can be reconciled together (though I agree that legally concursing the money with a court may be the best legal approach for JJP to take even though it is totally different from what was said a month ago - I would place the money in registry of a court if I were him as well based on everything I have read here). I almost feel like I should close this thread because this is about to pour out negativity from everyone and I'd rather Pinside not be involved in this dispute at all right now.
I'll leave it open for now and monitor the thread but try and minimize the negativity guys...we all can read and see the issue...no reason to lash out with bashing...
it very well may be the best way, but there is several people on here, who are going to be angry at this decision.
Quoted from fatality83:it very well may be the best way, but there is several people on here, who are going to be angry at this decision.
I couldn't agree more...
Quoted from TigerLaw:And I came to work early this morning too! LOL
so much for working today lol
Holy crap people!!! How does anyone deal with this guy!! I am not disagreeing with his best legal action but Christ a month ago he promised those games!!
You supporters are freakjng insane.
Quoted from TigerLaw:And I came to work early this morning too! LOL
i think your in for a long day.
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:Holy crap people!!! How does anyone deal with this guy!! I am not disagreeing with his best legal action but Christ a month ago he promised those games!!
You supporters are freakjng insane.
It almost seems like there is two different people posting under the JJP username on here. That is the only thing that makes any logical sense. It is starting to look like some of the things PlayerOne was stating in this thread are beginning to look like the truth. He is gonna be one unhappy fella once he see's this.
Everyone remember page 11 as having the meat of this thread, because I have a feeling this is gonna skyrocket up in to the 20's by days end
btw- i think Jacks (current) position on this is actually right.... but then why make those promises? Just to make a grandiose statement here?
The steps he suggested could have been agreed upon in Nov2003 when he actually first agreed to build the 22 games.... pushing that out now just comes off as desperate, ignorant or, worse, dishonest. Especially after "doubling-down" on it last month.
If I had to guess, I believe he thought to himself (back in November),
"Hey, I could return the $120K straight up... but, wait, if I gave them $120K worth of machines, BAM, we just made profit!"
There you go. A man's word is his bond, and there are too growing examples of this one's word amounting to reneged promises or compromised follow through.
My condolences to the Aussies. Yet again.
that little ray of hope for the Aussies has just been shat upon. I really feel bad for you guys. To have your hopes of ever seeing any money back crushed for a 2nd time only after having some hope building back up.
Quoted from JerseyJack:The problem as we stated a year ago is not building or shipping the games we received $120,000 for -
The problem is WHO are the 22 specific people who will receive the games and why? Who makes that decision and how does that help resolve this completely? Who are those people?
The other people who gave Bumper money will not be made whole - they will have recourse to ask (someone) who is still in a viable business for their money or their games.
A year ago we were advised to do nothing and wait for the Liquidator of Bumper to ask us to return the $120k - we reached out to him without much response - surprisingly and he directed us to Rob Farrel who was then trying to receive the four games on the water and misdirect them to himself instead of those owners.
So we ask - can everyone who paid Bumper money on games agree who the 22 people will be who receive the games?
We see that there is some "plan" to sell these games and get the money and do what with it? Give it to who? Why?
The $120k may as well be donated to a Children's Hospital and do some real good.
We were legally advised to place the $120k in an account with the State of New Jersey and have the rightful owners come and claim it.
Building 22 games will not solve anything for the people who do not receive those games and who have no voice in how the 22 games will be allocated.
We cannot do that in any arbitrary way as we stated a year ago. We have tried behind the scenes to help in any way to resolve this to the best we can. There needs to be real movement and cooperation not hateful posts to push some "shotgun wedding" to force us to do something that is grossly unfair to the majority of people who gave Bumper their money. We are sorry for what happened and it hurts deeply.
Someone needs to legally organize the group of people who gave Bumper the money and present a plan with everyone in agreement as to how the solution/ games or money - will be distributed and everyone signs off on it, or votes on it, or something but it needs to be done in the same public way that we are subject to.
Ok. Firstly thanks for the reply.
The major question you are asking has been resolved. How will 22 machines go into 79 buyers? Every buyer with an outstanding order has been contacted. We formed an action group and have used email correspondence to agree to the terms of how to best utilise the 22 games so everyone walks away with a little less pain than they now have. A list of options was put to the group and the overwhelming majority voted to sell the 22 machines and divide the money across the 79 members in accordance to their individual outlays to Bumper. So a person who has paid in full will be paid out more than someone who has paid $1500. Importantly, members will have the first opportunity to buy one of the 22 games before they are offered publicly. Anyone in the group buying a game at full price will still receive their divided when the proceeds are split at the end.
I totally agree that doing this in public is the way forward. First thing tomorrow (as it's 11pm here) I will talk with the WOZ group and get full documentation of the group agreements. You should be entitled to having full confidence of absolutely no recourse once you have delivered on your part of the deal. Names, addresses, full details of everyone including signatures of agreement. We have some money in our Bumper fighting fund so we should be able to have a legal document drafted that we can all agree too.
Again, thanks for making contact and I look forward the coming weeks with optimism.
Yeah.. Echoing everyone else.. What Jack said here on page 11 is the right approach, however.. Jerking people around since November to change the criteria now.. Wow.. 
Quoted from PinPatch:Seems simple to me
All the Woz buyers get together and work out who paid what amount.
Have all this signed up so that the exact amount of funds can be allocated to each and every person.
JJP then divides the 120k into the seperate rates for each person and issues refund cheques.
Maybe as a sign of good will JJP offers a discount on any future JJP machine purchases.
There will be no monetary gain trying to ship and sell machines in OZ.
GST gets added on, shipping costs, capital gains on the profits, warehousing costs, delivery costs and organising transport etc etc etc. Not to mention collecting and banking money from sales. Getting a container delivered from the ship to a warehouse costs close to a grand. Then you have to store them say at 2-3k a month.
Tax wise a refund will not affect your income. If the 22 machines are sold for profit there becomes a grey area that the money is no longer a refund and becomes part of your income (not 100% certain on that)
Trying to sell will be more of a drama than anything.
Surprised the liquidator didn't take the money back. Lucky for the preorder people because if they did the preorder 79 would get absolute ZERO back.
Maybe Jack could sell the 22 in the US and give the extra profit as part of the refunds? Would be a good gesture.
I was reminded by Legal people - after they read this and other threads that we cannot treat anyone with preference - that building and shipping the 22 games opens us up to a precedent and then subjects us to more issues.
It would be nice to make everyone happy with the 22 games - someone there needs to legally organize that group and sign off in agreement or in a vote so there is no further recourse after whatever solution is agreed upon. We want to help resolve this but we cannot decide who gets what.
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