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(Topic ID: 195811)

W?D Keeps blowing 12v opto fuse F116. Any Suggestions?


By Ericpinballfan

3 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 26 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by Ericpinballfan
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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#1 3 years ago

W?D having a Gremlin I can't find.
Keeps blowing the F116 12v opto secondary Fuse. I've replaced it 4 times now. You will have several flawless games. Then during game play it will start kicking the balls out of through repeatedly then eventually stop. That's the point fuse blows. I've even had it happen at the end of a game. This last time i got 4 billion and couldn't put my name up, flippers wouldn't move cursor to do so. So frustrating, such a good game I'd just had.

Open to any pointers, FYI, I've changed out power driver board and problem continued. Could it be something on CPU at this point. Going to try swapping out ribbon cables later, last thing I haven't tried.

#2 3 years ago

Short out in the game. Pinched wires, worn wires touching metal, etc. etc. Not CPU and you ruled out the driver board.

LTG : )

#3 3 years ago

This is very common and I have never seen anyone post a solution to the problem. I've been looking for a few years. It's related to the slot reels -- when plugged in, f116 will heat up until it's extremely hot to the touch and ultimately blows. Try unplugging the blue connectors that go directly to the reel stepper motors from the stepper motor driver boards and see if the fuse stays cool. I bet it will.

In my case, I operate a Whodunnit on location, and after spending weeks trying to solve the issue before putting it out, I ended up simply leaving the reels disconnected. It's a bummer to lose the moving reels, and I'd love to find an actual fix, but it did make the problem go away. Some of the things I've tried in my quest to combat the issue (this was a couple of years ago so my memory is slightly fuzzy) include swapping driver boards and CPUs with known good ones, replacing all reel motors with brand new ones, methodically checking all wiring for shorts, swapping reel pcbs around with a known working game that didn't have the issue, and ultimately swapping in the entire set of pcbs, reels, and motors from another Whodunnit that doesn't get hot or blow its fuse -- on my machine it still blew the fuse. We swapped it back into my friend's game, and it didn't blow his fuse. So as far as I can tell, the problem isn't related to the reel motors or related pcbs. I should add that my friend is one of the smartest people I know, and one of the best techs, and he and I spent several hours on it and ended up stumped.

Here are some other threads about it, each without any kind of resolution:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/whodunnit-error-check-fuses-f115-and-f116-j112-and-opto-12v-supply#post-3329415

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/check-fuses-f115-and-f116-j112-and-opto-12v-supply#post-3132562

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/who-dunnit-reel-steppers-repostupdate#post-850112

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!searchin/rec.games.pinball/whodunnit$20f116|sort:relevance/rec.games.pinball/3QdXDejUW0k/G7vt6qGUzGAJ

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!searchin/rec.games.pinball/whodunnit$20f116|sort:relevance/rec.games.pinball/0DETRqLIK9Q/ngrP7z0fVuIJ

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!searchin/rec.games.pinball/whodunnit$20f116|sort:relevance/rec.games.pinball/sJAEWaFDdQg/NFU4TcDtxLkJ

I'm actually just about to shop out my Whodunnit again so I can put it back on location, so I'm once again super interested in figuring out an actual solution. It seems like everyone ends up stumped. I've talked to a couple of other operators who have the issue, and they tell me they just leave the reels disconnected, too. I'd love to avoid that this time around, but I really don't know what else to try. Hopefully some people with the problem will come out of the woodwork in this thread and we can put our heads together and figure this thing out once and for all!

#4 3 years ago
Quoted from bobbyconover:

This is very common and I have never seen anyone post a solution to the problem.

THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH!
Just spent an hour going through all of the links provided, gleaming , hoping to make a connection in everyone's stories.
It all sure sounds familiar. I've had the machine a year, little more. One odd tid bit, seems like it was fine for months, then all the sudden one day, it started to happen...the F116 Fuse.
I have the Topper and even spoke to Joe to see if it was something he had heard of. We talked through it and his idea was also not power driver board. I have original, and a new rottendog, it happens on both. We talked shorts, and 12v draw across many points. Topper unplugged for now by the way, not that i think it matters.
Changing out CPU now, and just got an New game rom with most current code. New ribbon cables. Will see, I think the fuse will blow. Report back later.
For the record, the New Rottendog power driver is in machine and if it blows (The fuse F116, not the board), I will pull and then re-install original PD board that just had all the 5v rebuilt.

#5 3 years ago
Quoted from bobbyconover:

This is very common and I have never seen anyone post a solution to the problem.

Replace LM339 chips on the Stepper board?

#6 3 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

LM339 chips on the Stepper board

Wow, no clue on those. Will have to investigate and find them. Reels are spinning and working.
Had game almost a year before problem showed up. Been happening for several months now.
I did read all links above and one guy changed out all 3 stepper motors to only have same problem show back up.
Nothing about the board, (stepper).
Once you replaced chips, did problem go away forever and was fixed?
Thank you for your post and suggestion.

#7 3 years ago

After a long run around I believe (never been proven ) that my "Check fuse 115&116/ J112 and opto 12 volt supply" was in fact due to shitty (blow'd up) LM339 chips. I vowed never to be without them after that ordeal!!! Man that one pushed me to the limit.
Anyway, they are cheap, so order some and see what happens...and don;t get too excited if it doesn't screw up the first couple games.
break a leg!

https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/search.asp?pg=1&stext=lm339&sprice=&stype=&scat=

#8 3 years ago

I keep LM339 in my parts stock for so many issues. On a switch matrix a slight shot can hit then and cause strange issues.

But the chips you get might still suck so make sure you install sockets.

Also, the first thing I ask when I hear 12 volt fuse is "mods". Did you install any mods? Under cab lighting . . ..

When I hear those poppers popping and I know the 12v fuse is blown I think mods. The 12v on an 90s Wms game was used for very little and now people are stressing that supply.

#9 3 years ago
Quoted from Taxman:

Also, the first thing I ask when I hear 12 volt fuse is "mods". Did you install any mods? Under cab lighting

No mods...but i did add a topper and tapped into J117 on PD board. But, it ran several months before any problems. Blew fuse f116 a few times. Then switched to rottendog to see if that helped. Did not, topper was not plugged in during this month long test faze with rottendog board.

#10 3 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Anyway, they are cheap, so order some and see what happens...and don;t get too excited if it doesn't screw up the first couple games.
break a leg!

Thank you very much! Taxman to!
Chips will be ordered. I need a few things from greatplains anyway. Looks like 4 chips needed.

#11 3 years ago

correction- One LM339 chip is needed for the stepper board.
Did a ton more reading and research. This has been on problem on W?D for years now. Oldest forum post found was 8 years ago on google groups. 5 years ago here on pinside.
Wondering if there is a chip fix, much like the Navram? Ie, add a fuse to power flow before chip, looks like even a 1 amp fuse would do the trick. Socketing the chip makes complete sense. However, wonder what the fail point will be per chip, weeks, months, years?
In addition to the almost dozen threads on pinside and a handful more on google groups and facebook. Looks like an old problem never fully addressed. I even see after reading some 20 members inputs and stories that several got rid of there games because of this.
Love to draw a line in the sand now and find final solution.
Any of you guys, which I consider some of the smartest, most helpful on pinside(LTG,TAXMAN,THELAW) have an idea or daughter board idea to solve this?
Thank you all again for your help.
Bobby , Thank you also for building all links here in this thread.
Kind Regards,
Eric

#12 3 years ago
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:

... Socketing the chip makes complete sense. However, wonder what the fail point will be per chip, weeks, months, years? ...

No "however", is just makes sense to install sockets.

Board makers don't install socket to save pennies. The chips are put on a board and a wave solder machine solders everything quick and easy. This saves them the cost of the socket and the extra step if inserting the chip in the socket.

You are going to be taking a soldering iron to each leg of that chip. While it may be quick (unless you are not very good) you are not going to be as fast as a wave solder machine. You are exposing the chip to heat. Would you rather heat a chip or a socket?

What happens when if the chip blows or the inevitable "CRAP, I installed it backwards!" happens? Now you are exposing your board to heat twice more, once to remove the old chip and once to insert the new. Now you are risking lifting the traces.

As for the larger question I have not looked at the overall issue or solution on the stepper board.

#13 3 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Replace LM339 chips on the Stepper board?

I owned a W?D for a while, and when I bought it, the reels were all DOA. First, I socketed/replaced all 3 LM339 chips, one on each reel PCB, and the reels worked again like brand new. I then started to blow the 3A S.B. fuse at F116 on a regular basis.

Here's how I approached this massive pain in the ass:

1.) I replaced the OEM PDB with a rottendog, and same issue.
2.) I then replaced a 3 reel stepper motors with new ones, and the F116 blowing was reduced. At that point, it would ONLY blow during the multiball that happens when you catch the criminal.
3.) I then pulled/cleaned the motor gearbox for the drop target bank after reading that a dirty gearbox would put additional load on the F116. This helped, but did not completely fix it, It was now blowing like 1 in 10 times reaching that multiball.

4.) Ultimately, I replaced the 3A slow blow fuse at F116 with a 5A S.B. one and this completely eliminated the problem 100%

Hope this helps.

#14 3 years ago

the F116 fuse is connected to J116-2 and J117-2 and J118-2. Seems that the root cause of the blowing fuse is in these somewhere, ore a collective of them.

J116-2 is the 12v supply to the the 3 reel motors as well as the 3-bank target assy, including 16 opto pcb board and all the motor driver boards. EDIT: J116-2 also goes to the coin door interface board. I think I read somewhere that a partially un-seated plug here at J-2 plug could cause some problems with F116 fuse.

J117-2 is the 12v to the DMD controller board

J118-2 is the 12v to the "cabinet optos" (flipper optos I think)

One thing I never did was put in an LCD color display from colorDMD.... wonder if this would have helped take some sort of load off...

#15 3 years ago
Quoted from Taxman:

No "however", is just makes sense to install sockets

I meant to say. Once the LM399 chip is socketed, how long till the LM399 chip fails again?

Quoted from Seatmandan:

Hope this helps

Seatmandan
Yes, all intel on this bug helps. Thank you for your input. I will be trying all of these tips and posts from above and reporting back.
Trying to also get to the bottom of this W?D glitch.

#16 3 years ago
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:

I will be trying all of these tips and posts from above and reporting back.

Some people said "OH MY GOD!!! DON'T DO THAT!!!" when I switched the 3A 250v S.B. with a 5A.... But like I said, it worked perfectly. I think since the game was not in a commercial environment/on route, It wouldn't be a problem. I still firmly believe the root cause are the reel assemblies, but aside from replacing every damn thing, this route seemed to suffice

#17 3 years ago
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:

I meant to say. Once the LM399 chip is socketed, how long till the LM399 chip fails again?

Seatmandan
Yes, all intel on this bug helps. Thank you for your input. I will be trying all of these tips and posts from above and reporting back.
Trying to also get to the bottom of this W?D glitch.

Hopefully never.

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

#18 3 years ago
Quoted from Seatmandan:

Some people said "OH MY GOD!!! DON'T DO THAT!!!" when I switched the 3A 250v S.B. with a 5A....

There's a part of me that wants to try 4 amp sb first...lol
LM366 ORDERED, 20..50c each. Why not?
Found nice stepper board on ebay from good seller nabors..always has tested good stuff. One of the few ebay sellers i trust. 40 bucks.
I have an idea for a board patch. Electrical engineer friend had an idea about this to.
Will be trying a few things. This board may look completly different when im done.
Then ill ask and give away idea to Jim Knight, maybe this can get fixed forever.

#19 3 years ago

The fuse is blowing before the balls start kicking out of the trough. Once the fuse blows, power to the optos is killed and the game thinks the trough is fully loaded so it starts kicking out balls.

The light up topper is likely a problem. The extra current pulled by the LEDs could be enough to blow the fuse when all 12V motors are active.

Make sure you are using a slow blow fuse at F116.

Try unplugging the topper and see if it's still blowing. If that fixes it you'll need to either increase the fuse by the smallest amount to accommodate the topper or wire in an external 12V supply for the topper.

The generally accepted solution is to use an external supply to avoid excess heating of the board's unregulated 12V supply.

#20 3 years ago
Quoted from Dmod:

The generally accepted solution is to use an external supply to avoid excess heating of the board's unregulated 12V supply.

Thanks Dmod.
The topper has been unplugged for 2 months.
The problem continued even after I replaced power driver board with new rottendog.
Problem does accur when multiball and reels are spinning, elevator madness is a good example when it happens.
No pinched wires and connectors rebuilt at J116-119 to PDB.
Ive been wondering about powering the 3 bank to elevator somewhere else on power driver board to. Taking one element and moving it to different power.

#21 3 years ago

J116-J119 are all sourced from the same unregulated 12V supply so moving to a "different" unregulated 12V source on the driver board won't change anything.

I'd be focusing on the motors themselves as the combined current of the motors and optos is exceeding the game spec.

It's possible someone changed out an opto or motor for one that pulls more current. This has been an issue on games like CFTBL where the halogen lamp was replaced with one that burns more current.

#22 3 years ago
Quoted from Dmod:

It's possible someone changed out an opto or motor for one that pulls more current.

Thats one I havent checked yet. I will add those to the surgical list.
Thanks again.

#23 3 years ago

One thing you could do to try to track it down is to pull the fuse at F116, and insert a DMM across the fuse terminals to measure the current.

The optos are always on so you can record the current with the game in attract mode to get the opto current.

Then put the game in test mode and activate each motor to measure the increase in current due to each motor.

You can then compare these measurements with those from a working game to identify the problem.

#24 3 years ago

I had this issue with my W?D since the day I got it. I took apart all the reel stepper motors, cleaned them as others suggested.
I socketed the LM339's . No good. Ended up selling it a year later.

I noticed that if I left just one reel stepper connected the fuse took a super long time to go nuclear. All three connected, it got HOT fast!

So on a good day, I might get 50-60 minutes of play time before F116 blew.
So I just didn't leave game on unless I was playing it and turned off afterwards.

This circuit wasn't the best design but maybe that's all there was back then for technology?

3 weeks later
#25 3 years ago

Any progress on this by chance, Eric? I love that a discussion is taking place at the very least.

Also, to those who are suggesting the issue could be a suspect reel motor, remember that I not only replaced all of mine with new ones but also swapped an entire 3-reel assembly from a friend's game that doesn't have the fuse blowing problem, and it still blew the fuse on mine. We put it back in his game and it was fine, totally cool. This problem is maddening.

#26 3 years ago

Update-
It is indeed the over taxed 12v system on this pinball machine.
Stepper motor boards- well there 25 years old. A lot of time spinning those motors and lowering the 3 bank, plus a few other things.
Age, power, and draw on that damn littel chip on stepper motor board, LM339.
Currently socketing them to replace, all 3 boards gone off machine for couple weeks. 20 or so games in, no blown fuse. Meter at F116 on pdb consistent, no fluxiation, unlike when stepper boards were in.
Will update soon with new LM339 chips and a clever idea to isolate the power surge that can happen when all is going crazy, most always multiball or elevator madness.

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