(Topic ID: 191071)

WCS94: Last Time Played Fine..Now CPU Board Dead

By CUJO

6 years ago


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#1 6 years ago

This has been a bad week for me with Bally/Williams CPU boards. First Popeye, now WCS94.
When I turn on WCS, I get random frozen pixels on the DMD, the driver board status LED's are lit but all 3 on the CPU board are off.
No GI or any other life to the game.
Just so ODD that I have never has an issue like this with a Williams game where the CPU board won't even boot or the status LED's won't illuminate.

I have reseated the power and ribbon cables to and from. I have pressed down on the ASIC chip, the CPU and EPROMS to try a reseat.

So no sound or 'dong' , just random frozen noise on the DMD and no LED's lighting on CPU board.

I saw a previous post here on Pinside with exactly the same issue but it looks like it was abandoned before a solution..

Any help would be appreciated in what to look for or test.

#4 6 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Have you done any work with this game or swapped any boards or cables prior to this issue?
Have the batteries leaked on the MPU?

No .. no leakage or prior leakage.
No swap outs or work. Just worked 100% last time when I turned it off maybe a week ago.

#5 6 years ago
Quoted from whthrs166:

try unplugging the column and row switch plugs then power up the machine see if the cpu board boots. if not check your 5v power supply at j 210 see what the voltage is there.

No change in boot up behavior when I pulled off the column and switch connectors at J207 & J209.

Are pins 4 & 5 on J210 the 5V to test to GND?

#7 6 years ago

Not getting 5VDC at J210 on pins 4 & 5 but I am getting 12VDC at pins 6 & 7.

#9 6 years ago

Would the KAHR DAUGHTERBOARD FIX work in a situation like this even though I have no 5VDC present at J210?

#12 6 years ago
Quoted from Homepin:

I suspect it would - certainly worth a try for a test. I would still track down the actual fault but it would be useful to prove the point.

I had a KAHR Classic Daughterboard here to try. Well, it didn't work in this case on WCS94.

The Upper and Lower RED LED lit up on the CPU board but I got nothing on the DMD display like I did before.
It stayed like that until I powered off in 10 seconds.

So a No Go...

#13 6 years ago
Quoted from RonaldRayGun:

Measure voltage at TP2 on the driver board. It should be 5VDC.

Getting no voltage at TP2 on the driver board.

#17 6 years ago

Thanks! Will check fuses on driver board first. Hoping it's simple this time.

#19 6 years ago

No, and all the fuses look good. I have no 5VDC on TP2 on the driver board. Not sure which fuse would be the culprit yet unless you know.

#24 6 years ago

Pulled & Checked F113 , the +5VDC Logic fuse out of game.

It was dodgy & intermittent, even though I could get a continuity beep from the meter but wasn't 100% all the time I probed it.
So I replace this fuse with a NEW 5A SB 250V fuse.

Game booted this time!

However, when I start a game, the ball will not kick up from the trough into the shooter lane.
I manually forced a ball up there. Played well except I noticed the right midfield kickout wasn't kicking the ball out. All the other solenoids seemed to firing inc. Magna Save.

Also the lowest of the three pop bumpers kick seemed lethargic compared to the other two. This wasn't the case before.

So that's where I'm at so far and thank you for your help to this point!

I will also point out the Driver Board was completely rebuilt by CoinOp Cauldron about 5 years ago and there can't be more than
20 hours of "ON" time for this game since then.

#25 6 years ago

Just ran a SOLENOID TEST. There are (2) that aren't working.
Right Eject Hole and Trough.

#28 6 years ago

Sure a LOT better off than where I was last night

#30 6 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Check F101 to F105 with your meter as these go to the solenoids.

Pulled the 5 fuses out, cleaned the ends with isopropyl alcohol as they felt a little "tacky" and tested . all good. Reseated all and tested game. Same results as before...

#33 6 years ago

They are the only two that don't work in test mode.
I feel I've had this issue years ago that went away. Can't totally remember.
I remember grounding the trannsistor tab to gnd to force fire the solenoid and after that it just started working.
Is that a way to test the solenoids too?
I know I may have another issue (bad tranny) or loose connection but I can see if the solenoids at least work.

#35 6 years ago

I was able to ground the tab on Q48 and got the Right Eject to fire.Yea.
So at least I know the solenoid is good and the path to it.

However when I ground Q66 Transistor tab to ground (Trough), nothing happens.

I think I remember from prior testing this method won't work on these transistors??

#37 6 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

If it's a TIP-36c, then yes, that won't work. Grounding the tab is only advised on TIP-102s (in WPC games).
Check the wires to the coil that isn't working. Sometimes, over time, they pop off.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

Wires appear secure and well soldered on to the coils.
So both the trough coil and the right eject coil should have 50VDC available between the thick wire going to the coil and ground?

#39 6 years ago

Tested both coil leads to Ground with DVM. This was the Right Eject Hole & Trough UpKicker Solenoid(s).

Got about 70-72VDC on each lead to Ground.

So now that I have voltage on both coils on both lugs to GND , what do I look for next?

Thank you...

CuJo

#40 6 years ago

I found my old post on here with the same issue from last August. It seems I pulled the driver board out of the game and tested the transistors. Found them to be ok, put the driver board back in the game, realized I had left J104 off the driver board connector and played fine since then.
So with voltages at both coils, what's left to check?

#41 6 years ago
Quoted from whthrs166:

Did ya git er goin?

No..not yet...

#44 6 years ago
Quoted from RonaldRayGun:

The trough solenoid should fire when the emitter of Q66 is grounded. The emitter is pin 3 in the image. Check continuity from the emitter to the coil.
If the transistor works then the emitter will be grounded when the base (pin 1) is grounded.
So if you have continuity then ground the base pin 1. This should fire the solenoid.

So if power is on and I clip[ a wire on the ground braid and touch emitter (pin3), then solenoid should fire.
If I touch the base (pin1) to ground the trough coil should also fire. If it doesn't fire on pin1, then Q66 is bad?
Thanks!

#45 6 years ago

Update:
Followed the test RRG proposed and results as follows:

Grounded Pin3 of Q66 to ground braid..Ball trough kicker worked! One ball fired into shooter lane.
Grounded Pin1 of Q66 to ground braid..Fired up a second ball!

This is fun and frustrating at the same time!

So what did I/We learn? Thanks RRG!

#47 6 years ago
Quoted from Homepin:

Don't go shorting the base of transistors without using a current limiting resistor or you will learn how to blow up transistors.

Yikes! I am learning! When I shorted the pin1 (Base) to GND, it was just a microsecond touch of a probe so hopefully nothing blew.

#51 6 years ago
Quoted from RonaldRayGun:

You learned that Q66 works (since it fired the coil when the base went low) and everything downstream from there works (coil and connection from Q66 to the coil).

So what's left to check then?
If Q66 is good, the path to the coil is good, etc. then what is left that keeps the trough coil from not firing a ball into the lane?

Perplexing,...

#53 6 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

What you learned is that the path to ground at the transistor is good. This included the solder lug of the coil, through the wire back to the power/driver board connector, the female IDC connector, the male pin, the solder joint at the male pin, and the PCB traces to the transistor. You've learned nothing about the condition of the transistor.
You can diode test the transistor.
For a TIP-102...
Place the black lead of your DMM on the metal tab of the transistor
Probe each of the flanking legs with the red lead
.4 to .6 volts is a normal reading. Readings outside of this range indicate a failed transistor
Probe the center leg with the red lead
A "short" should be seen. If not, then the transistor has failed.
For a TIP-36c...
Place the red lead of your DMM on the metal tab of the transistor
Probe each of the flanking legs with the black lead
.4 to .6 volts is a normal reading. Readings outside of this range indicate a failed transistor
Probe the center leg with the black lead
A "short" should be seen. If not, then the transistor has failed.
Testing a transistor with this method can prove that it has failed. It can not prove that it is good. Transistors sometimes test good with a DMM but then fail under real load.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

Thanks...will try the test in the AM Chris.

#54 6 years ago
Quoted from RonaldRayGun:

So now you move upstream in the circuit. Q65, Q60 and U5. Let me get back to you when I have some free time.

Appreciate that!
Thanks!

#55 6 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Do you have any insert lamps out on the playfield? Do you have a logic probe?

Actually I ran a ALL LAMPS TEST this AM and one whole ROW is out indicated on the LAMP MATRIX chart.
That would be ROW 8:
Washington "R", Strength (Ball), Skill (Ball), Ultra Spinner (2), Right Flipper Lane, Upper Left Lane, Left Ramp Buy Tickets & Skill Shot Center.

#59 6 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

Hmmm. This just got interesting.
Has there been any prior work to U1 through U5.
Most commonly, someone tried to repair an issue, removed one of those ICs, and fractured a trace or through hole, causing downstream ramifications.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

Possibly. But it wasn't me if there was.

Here's a pic of the top half of the CPU board. Looks like U1 & U3 are socketed.
U2 & U5 are not. U4 is the CPU and isn't that always socketed?

WCSWPC089TOP (resized).jpgWCSWPC089TOP (resized).jpg

#64 6 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

Ok so you said row 8 and and listed all the lamps in row 6 so I am going to go with Row 6.
Row 6, solenoid 14 (Right Eject Hole), and Solenoid 6 (Trough) are all controlled by data bit 5 and these are the only things on the power driver board that are controlled by this bit so logic would tell us that your problem is a result of an absence of this bit. Most likely cause would be bad ribbon cable between the CPU J211 and power driver board header J113. This could also be a problem with the solder connection to the header pin on either board MPU J211 pin 19 or power driver board J113 pin 19, or a cracked trace on either board.
If you haven't already tried flipping the ribbon cable around, go ahead and try that first to see if the problem remains, changes, or goes away. If the cable is bad, I would expect to see a failure or row 8 lamps, solenoid 8 (Ramp Diverter), and Solenoid 16 (Diverter Hold) as the problem would migrate to data bit 7.
On the power driver board, you should be able to buzz the connection for data bit 5, it goes from J113-19 to the following points:
U11-2
U9-4
U2-14
U3-14
U4-14
U5-14
Good luck!

Yes Pin_Guy, I meant Row 6, not Row 8..
Going to try your suggestions & let you know soon!
Thanks!

#65 6 years ago

Update:
Pin_Guy,
Flipped the ribbon cable around between CPU J211 and Driver J113.
I noticed it was already flipped (red line on ribbon was lined up with Pin 34 or both board headers).
Inspected ribbon and header pins and reseated cable the way it was intended.
Power on pin. Go into LAMP TEST. All lamps working except "R" so maybe a bulb out.
Start game.

VOILA!

Ball goes up into shooter lane! Test right eject hole. Ejects now so all is good! Wow. It always seems to come back as a connector/
continuity issues with a lot of problems with pins I have been finding out.

Thanks to ALL who helped me thru this. I'll post again when I check out the "R" lamp to see if it's actually burned out or something else.

#66 6 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

Sorry...I should have said on the power/driver board.
The data bus signals travel trough the short ribbon from the MPU to the power/driver board, then across the board to those 5 74LS374s for various functions.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

FYI Chris, the U1-U5 on Driver board look very clean and none have ever been socketed.
Thanks for your help.

#67 6 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

The same type fault i have is just on different row of lamos and a different pair of coils. Mine is a power driver board issue for sure.
Do you have another driver board to swap in for test?

PinballManiac40,
Maybe you are having the same issue I was having that Pin_Guy pointed out.
Thanks for your assistance too!

#71 6 years ago

I inspected the headers on both ..and looks good but as we know that means nothing in pinball..
Here's a pic.
So WCS94 decided to reward me with this DMD issue now.Vertical Lines...hmmmm...It's so bad to me!!!
I already reseated power and cables to DMD on both ends.

It came up on it's mode in attract mode while I was doing something else.

I turned it off. I'll see if it starts up that way cold or if it takes a while after power up.

WCSheaders (resized).jpgWCSheaders (resized).jpg

WCS94dmdlines (resized).jpgWCS94dmdlines (resized).jpg

#74 6 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Reaeat the big ribbon cable from the top left MPU connector to fliptronix to sound board to DMD controller board at all 4 connections. Another reason to buy a new set of ribbon cables.

Thanks!
As long as I've had pinballs, I'm still learning the ins and outs, and thanks to people like you that are willing to help,
it makes it so much more rewarding.

I re-seated that whole line of ribbons like you suggested and it cleared up the vertical lines issue...

I had just reseated the little ribbon between the display driver board and DMD but obviously the issue was further "upstream".

#77 6 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Ok. Upon inspection, I found C2 (100uf 25v) electrolytic capacitor had leaked and damaged some areas of my driver board. Likely it damaged a trace at U1 that is causing my issues with a row of lamps not working and 2 pop bumpers not firing.
So, I suggest changing C2 on your driver board. This is not really the first time I ran across C2 leaking and the leakage is very corrosive, just like battery corrosion.

Thanks for the heads up. I think I am ok as far as my WCS driver board goes as it was re-done by CoinOp Cauldron a few years back.
Here is a list of what he addressed on it, which included a new C2 from what I see.

Thanks!

WPC-3 Power Driver board (Ser# XXXXXXXX, previous repairs): Removed wires, excess flux and previous repairs from board. 33 Broken plate through holes and damaged traces repaired. TIP102 (Q34) and 2n5401 (Q33) transistors. 1N4004 (D12) diode. C2 (100uf/50v/105c), C4 (100uf/16v), C5, C6, C7, C11, C31 (5x 15000uf/25v/105c) and C8 (100uf/100v/105c) capacitors. BR1 and BR2 (2x GBPC3508) bridge rectifiers. J101, J114, J115, J120 and J121 high temperature headers. 10k 1/2 watt resistor (R260). +5 volt boost modification (10 ohms). Fuses checked; -- 3x 5 amp slow blow (F111, F107, F108) due to incorrect values. Reflow. Board cleaned-up. Two-tier full functional testing.

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