(Topic ID: 234458)

WCS94 blowing fuse F104

By cbdarden

5 years ago


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  • 64 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by cbdarden
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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There are 64 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 5 years ago

I have a new Rottendog power board and it was working fine. Now it blows immediately when I turn on the game with the coin door open or not. It does not blow when I pull out J107.

I’ve tested all the coils and they’re all within Ohm tolerance and I don’t see any shorts on or near the lugs.

Any ideas as to next steps?

#2 5 years ago

Likely you have a shorted bridge rectifier on your Fliptronix board (top left board). Try unplugging the IDC connectors and see if the fuse on the driver board still blows when you have J107 connected.

#3 5 years ago

Tried it, messed up the screen, still burned out 104. Now with everything plugged back in, it burns out 112 and 114, the goalie comes on.. and now everything is twice as messed up as before.

Yes, I have the correct fuses in everywhere.

So, now it’s quickly getting beyond my skills.

#4 5 years ago
Quoted from cbdarden:

Tried it, messed up the screen, still burned out 104. Now with everything plugged back in, it burns out 112 and 114, the goalie comes on.. and now everything is twice as messed up as before.
Yes, I have the correct fuses in everywhere.
So, now it’s quickly getting beyond my skills.

Did you unplug the ribbon cables? If so, you may have plugged it in a row off up/down.

#5 5 years ago

That was it, thank you! Should I unplug everything from the Fliptronix board (including the ribbon cables) when I test again? I’m not sure I did that the first time.

#6 5 years ago
Quoted from cbdarden:

That was it, thank you! Should I unplug everything from the Fliptronix board (including the ribbon cables) when I test again? I’m not sure I did that the first time.

I was meaning for you to only unplug the larger IDC connectors (J901 and J907 on the right and J904 at the bottom), not the ribbon cables.

Sorry, I should have stated connector numbers but I didn't have a board in front of me at the time. Just want to isolate power going to this fliptronix board.

#7 5 years ago

I appreciate your help. Just did that with J901, 907, and 904 unplugged on the Fliptronix board and J107 plugged in on the power board and F104 burned out. So, I’m guessing it’s not the Fliptronix board.

#8 5 years ago

Sounds like it is ok. It is what I just ran into with one a couple of weeks ago. I'll have to check, I hope tomorrow, what other board to try and disconnect if someone else hasn't already chimed in.

#9 5 years ago

But for now, Could you post a picture of all the boards in the backbox?

#10 5 years ago

Here you go..

54C3D0CB-2E28-4A2F-ADE0-EB7835794F62 (resized).jpeg54C3D0CB-2E28-4A2F-ADE0-EB7835794F62 (resized).jpeg
#11 5 years ago

I say disconnect all IDC (JXXX) connectors, then plug one in slowly at a time to see which one is causing the fuse to blow. That will help you find the problem circuit (if it is another circuit).

#12 5 years ago

I'm sorry. I was thinking about the wrong connector.

So it seems the J107 is going to the coil power. With F104 removed, you should be able to see in the solenoid test which coils are not working. Inspect the coil wrappers for burnt marks under the playfield. Also check to see if the non working coil plunger moves freely.

#14 5 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

Do the fuse conventions follow on Rottendog the same as WPC-S?

Pretty positive that it does but I can't get a great picture off the internet of the board to confirm. You can see in his picture that J107 is disconnected and it does go to coil power.

Are you looking at the WPC-95 driver board by chance?

#15 5 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Pretty positive that it does but I can't get a great picture off the internet of the board to confirm. You can see in his picture that J107 is disconnected and it does go to coil power.
Are you looking at the WPC-95 driver board by chance?

No, I have a full set of WPC-S schematics. And my tired eyes....My apologies, the Fuse I was looking at on the schematics that looked like 104, was 106. Had to get out the magnifying glass...lol.

#16 5 years ago

Definitely blowing up his picture looks like it matches rhe original board, though it is hard to make out the numbers.

Could you PM the schematic to me? I cannot find it on the website since it has been updated.

#17 5 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Definitely blowing up his picture looks like it matches rhe original board, though it is hard to make out the numbers.
Could you PM the schematic to me? I cannot find it on the website since it has been updated.

I have the OEM paper copy, booklet form for BSD.

If it's indeed an issue with J107, I would first check each pin with connector removed for continuity to ground, just to rule out a direct short. I don't have the WCS94 schematics, but on BSD, F104 feeds a combination of Low voltage coils and flashers. Since only the flashers might operate in attract mode on power up, I would be looking at those, not the coils.

As a test, if you first confirm that no wires on J107 are direct shorted (especially look at the Red/Wht wire), try removing J122 instead of J107. That's the ground signals for the flashers.

#18 5 years ago

The manual says F104 feeds Solenoids 9-16, but they are working. It’s 1-8 that are not working (which are the high powered solenoids). I’ve seen this in other WCS94 threads, looks like a misprint in the schematics for WCS94.

Guess I’ll go back through the solenoids again. Maybe one is firing when I power on and I’m missing it.

I’m running out of 3A Slow blows...

#19 5 years ago

J107 doesn't even go to the Fliptronics II board.

I would check the flashers, make sure the legs are not touching each other and creating a short. I had this happen on my IJ, when lowering the playfield a flasher had the legs pressed close enough together that it created a short.

Maybe the knocker coil if that was overlooked.

J107 (resized).pngJ107 (resized).pngJ107(2) (resized).pngJ107(2) (resized).png
#20 5 years ago

You could try unplugging J122, J126, J127 & J130 instead of J107 on the power driver board and then plug them back in one by one and see which one creates the short.

J122 (resized).pngJ122 (resized).png
#21 5 years ago
Quoted from cbdarden:Guess I’ll go back through the solenoids again. Maybe one is firing when I power on and I’m missing it.
I’m running out of 3A Slow blows...

Just run through the solenoid test with the fuse removed and report the ones not working. Any coils not working, you should inspect the paper coil wrapping for brown or darker discoloration.

2019-01-24 06_35_55-F14 burnt coil and other questions _ Tech_ Alpha-numeric _ Pinside.com - Interne (resized).png2019-01-24 06_35_55-F14 burnt coil and other questions _ Tech_ Alpha-numeric _ Pinside.com - Interne (resized).png

#22 5 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Just run through the solenoid test with the fuse removed and report the ones not working. Any coils not working, you should inspect the paper coil wrapping for brown or darker discoloration.
[quoted image]

Confused? How does the coil work with the fuse removed?

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't the blanking circuit keep any coils from firing on power up? That's why I initially suspected a flasher.

#23 5 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

Confused? How does the coil work with the fuse removed?
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't the blanking circuit keep any coils from firing on power up? That's why I initially suspected a flasher.

Just trying to help identify which coils/flashers use power from the F104. Although, the diagrams from Tlamb should show the same results.

If you have no coils/flashers firing during the tests, make sure you close the coin door for these tests.

The blanking circuit on power up will not keep a locked on transistor from frying a coil.

#24 5 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Just trying to help identify which coils/flashers use power from the F104. Although, the diagrams from Tlamb should show the same results.
If you have no coils/flashers firing during the tests, make sure you close the coin door for these tests.
The blanking circuit on power up will not keep a locked on transistor from frying a coil.

Ah, gotcha on the fuse. I thought we'd established what F104 fed, but maybe not.

True on the blanking, but if it were a locked on transistor, he would hear the coil turn on during power up. He hasn't mentioned this. He said he checked the coils for shorts and there were none, so it doesn't sound like it's a combination of locked up transistor AND shorted coil that wouldn't turn on.

A good test, might be to watch F104 and see if it blows before or after the blanking completes. Because if it immediately blows on power up before the MPU boots, then it's a good bet that it's a shorted transistor. If it blows after the MPU has booted, then it's likely a shorted flasher in attract mode.

I still vote for removing J122, and possibly the other connectors as the previous poster suggested, and then reinstalling one at a time. Would narrow the scope.

#25 5 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

True on the blanking, but if it were a locked on transistor, he would hear the coil turn on during power up. He hasn't mentioned this. He said he checked the coils for shorts and there were none, so it doesn't sound like it's a combination of locked up transistor AND shorted coil that wouldn't turn on.

If the glass is on, some coils are hard to hear lock on during power on. I hope it only turns out all coils are ok and only a transistor is shorted.

Well, I know in the past, I had overlooked shorted coils. A shorted coil, does not always mean it is 0 ohms. A shorted coil may be 5 ohms when it should be 11 ohms. This is why it is important to look at the coil wrappers. Best to compare the resistance of the same type coil to know if the coils are all good.

#26 5 years ago

On top of looking at the coil wrappers, I would pull the MPU board out and test out all the coil/flasher transistors for shorts. Should be quick to test them all.

Testing the transistors in all 3 combinations for shorts
outer to outer pins
middle to one outer pin
middle to other outer pin.

#27 5 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

On top of looking at the coil wrappers, I would pull the MPU board out and test out all the coil/flasher transistors for shorts. Should be quick to test them all.
Testing the transistors in all 3 combinations for shorts
outer to outer pins
middle to one outer pin
middle to other outer pin.

Also a good idea.

#28 5 years ago

More ideas the better so it will help the OP find the problem faster.

#29 5 years ago

I appreciate all the suggestions! I’ll have time tonight to run through some more tests and troubleshooting and I’ll check back in with what I find.

I really do appreciate the suggestions. Thank you!

#30 5 years ago

So, I’ve gotten around to testing and the kickback is firing right at the start and then the fuse blows. I’m assuming I should replace that coil?

#31 5 years ago

Usually if a coil burns, the coil plunger will not move. You'll need to test the transistor for that kickback coil, as it should definitely be shorted. Best to measure with the coil with an ohmmeter too so we know if the resistance is too low on it or not. Is the paper wrapper burnt at all like in my example picture?

#32 5 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Usually if a coil burns, the coil plunger will not move. You'll need to test the transistor for that kickout coil. as it should definitely be shorted. Best to measure with the coil with an ohmmeter too so we know if the resistance is too low on it or not. Is the paper wrapper burnt at all like in my example picture?

Agree, likely blown transistor. But why did it blow? I would test the coil, transistor and diode on the board for that coil.

#33 5 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

Agree, likely blown transistor. But why did it blow? I would test the coil, transistor and diode on the board for that coil.

Borderline transistors can breakdown, especially after 20 years, and short causing the coil to lock on when power is applied.

Blown suggests that it is blown open, which will no longer fire a coil and no longer would be blowing out a fuse.

#34 5 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Borderline transistors can breakdown, especially after 20 years, and short causing the coil to lock on when power is applied.
Blown suggests that it is blown open, which will no longer fire a coil and no longer would be blowing out a fuse.

Jeebus...Didn't realize we have the semantics police here. Pardon, me....I agree, the transistor is SHORTED. But still need to check the diode and the coil. No sense in replacing a transistor to just have it blow...er, short, again.

Board isn't 20 years old. It's a new Rottendog.

#35 5 years ago

If the coil has the right amount of resistance and you cannot see an burn on the coil wrapper, there would not be a need to replace it.

#36 5 years ago

There’s no diode on this particular coil. I’ll have to check for a short on the board.

This is a brand new Rottendog board, kind of annoying if something is wrong with the board itself.

#37 5 years ago

So, I grounded the black lead and touched all of the transistors and they all beeped from that area: Q64, Q66, Q68, Q70, Q76, Q78, Q80, Q82.

None of the rest beeped. When I remove the plug (J130) from that area, only Q82 beeps.

#38 5 years ago
Quoted from cbdarden:

There’s no diode on this particular coil. I’ll have to check for a short on the board.
This is a brand new Rottendog board, kind of annoying if something is wrong with the board itself.

Diodes are not on coils on wpc games...they are on the board.

#39 5 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

If the coil has the right amount of resistance and you cannot see an burn on the coil wrapper, there would not be a need to replace it.

Didn't say replace it...said check it.

#40 5 years ago
Quoted from cbdarden:

So, I grounded the black lead and touched all of the transistors and they all beeped from that area: Q64, Q66, Q68, Q70, Q76, Q78, Q80, Q82.
None of the rest beeped. When I remove the plug (J130) from that area, only Q82 beeps.

Is Q82 associated with kickback coil? Don't have schematics in front of me.

#41 5 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

Didn't say replace it...said check it.

That particular statement was toward the OP in response to his question.

Quoted from cbdarden:

So, I’ve gotten around to testing and the kickback is firing right at the start and then the fuse blows. I’m assuming I should replace that coil?

#42 5 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

Is Q82 associated with kickback coil? Don't have schematics in front of me.

I misspoke before, it was the goal popper that fired when I turned it on, and yes, Q82 is associated with the goal popper according to the schematics.

#43 5 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

That particular statement was toward the OP in response to his question.

Ah, sorry....it followed my post, so I missed that. Carry on

#44 5 years ago

Then sounds like you found your culprit. There will be a diode on the collector of that transistor (Outside leg)...Should be physically right next to it. With the same connector off the board, check the diode. Should have ~.6V with black lead on banded side, red lead on other side, DVM in diode mode. Should have OL/Open with leads opposite.

#45 5 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

Ah, sorry....it followed my post, so I missed that. Carry on

Sorry, I did not tag the quote originally

#46 5 years ago
Quoted from cbdarden:

I misspoke before, it was the goal popper that fired when I turned it on, and yes, Q82 is associated with the goal popper according to the schematics.

Great. Time also to look at the coil wrapper and measure the resistance of the coil. Set the meter to 20 ohms. The goalie popper coil is AE-23-800, which is the same as the kickback coil. You can compare the resistance of both and if they measure close, then coil should be ok.

Edit: Rottendog may not use the TIP102 as the original driver board for Q82.

#47 5 years ago

Same thing happened to me. Transistor fried and started blowing solenoid fuses. If you suspect the kickback coil, I suggest de-soldering that lead, replace the transistor on the board and test the machine to see if you start holding fuses. Then, with the coil out of circuit, test that with DMM before adding it back (sometimes things act differently in a circuit, especially a broken one). That way, you know if it was just a bad transistor (if fixed) or something in your solenoid assembly is messed up (and probably need to replace transistor again).

Long story short, I would order two (or more) transistors if you don't already have them on-hand.

#48 5 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Great. Time also to look at the coil wrapper and measure the resistance of the coil. Set the meter to 20 ohms. The goalie popper coil is AE-23-800, which is the same as the kickback coil. You can compare the resistance of both and if they measure close, then coil should be ok.
Edit: Rottendog may not use the TIP102 as the original driver board for Q82.

Be sure you check the coil with the connector off the board, otherwise you'll read across the diode on board...if that diode is shorted, you'll read no impedence.

#49 5 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

Be sure you check the coil with the connector off the board, otherwise you'll read across the diode on board...if that diode is shorted, you'll read no impedence.

Nay. Don't worry so much. Only time I had ever seen a diode shorted on the driver board for a coil being shorted, the driver board had a hole in it.

#50 5 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Nay. Don't worry so much. Only time I had ever seen a diode shorted on the driver board for a coil being shorted, the driver board had a hole in it.

For the time it takes to remove the connector, it's silly not to eliminate that possibility. Troubleshooting 101...minimize possibilities of erroneous readings.

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