World Cup Soccer
Bally, 1994I overtightened my flipper, snapped the bolt, and had to put the plunger assembly back together with parts on hand. The diagram in the manual is hard to follow so I may have made a mistake there. When I got it back together the flipper started firing twice on a full press and will only hold up with a very light press. Lower button, upper button, eos all register in switch test. Any ideas where I should look next?
Check part suppliers like Pinball Life for pictures of assemblies that might help.
As Isochronic_Frost posted. Check coil lugs for cold solder joints and the thin wires from coil windings to coil lugs for cracks or breaks.
LTG : )
flipper mech full assembly (resized).jpgQuoted from Isochronic_Frost:Was the coil damaged? Firing twice usually means something is up with the hold-power.
I'm not sure how it could have been, it was working fine before I snapped the bolt. And the flipper will hold up if I lightly press the button in. It seems like it fires once when the first button switch registers and then again when the upper flipper button switch registers. But the eos switch must be closing because I can get the flipper to hold during that light press. This is my first fliptronics game, i dont really understand the 2 flipper button switches because wcs doesnt have an upper flipper.
Quoted from LTG:Check coil lugs for cold solder joints and the thin wires from coil windings to coil lugs for cracks or breaks.
LTG : )
[quoted image]
Maybe something cracked after I took the coil off to get the assembly apart. I'll take a look in the morning and reflow solder on the lugs.
Quoted from sullivcd40:But the eos switch must be closing because I can get the flipper to hold during that light press. This is my first fliptronics game, i dont really understand the 2 flipper button switches because wcs doesnt have an upper flipper.
NO EOS switches (fliptronic) work differently to NC EOS switches (non-fliptronic).
If you're unsure then post images of what you have. Nobody else but you can see what it is in front of you to make an assessment.
Quoted from DumbAss:NO EOS switches (fliptronic) work differently to NC EOS switches (non-fliptronic).
Non-fliptronic flippers are energized directly when the cabinet button closes. The NC EOS switches opens which PHYSICALLY interrupts the power stroke winding current flow.
Fliptronic flippers are energized by software through drive transistors (2N4403, TIP102 and for the power stroke winding TIP36C). The NO EOS switches close and provide FEEDBACK to the software of the flipper bat state. The software will interrupt energization of the power stroke winding regardless of the EOS switch state. The cabinet button in fliptronic machines provides cabinet switch state to the software and is not involved in the actual power path for the solenoid.If you're unsure then post images of what you have. Nobody else but you can see what it is in front of you to make an assessment.
The eos switch is normally open in this game. When I manually push the flipper up in switch test, the eos switch registers. There are also 2 separate flipper button switches (per flipper) that register in test, a flipper button switch and an upper flipper button switch. The latter registers with a full press of the flipper button while the former registers with a light press of the button. During a game, the light press of the button will fire and then hold the flipper up. A full press of the button will cause a rapid double firing and will not hold the flipper up.
20230321_235250 (resized).jpg20230321_235334 (resized).jpgQuoted from sullivcd40:During a game, the light press of the button will fire and then hold the flipper up. A full press of the button will cause a rapid double firing and will not hold the flipper up.
The wiring looks correct (assuming the wire attached to the center lug is YEL-BLU - it is hard to tell with the high ISO due to poor illumination).
What happens when in test (not in a game)? Do you get the same behavior? Make sure to do testing with the coin door closed due to the high power interlock switch.
Does the solenoid only "double fire" once? Or does it "machine gun"?
I don't have any evidence but I would suspect a potential problem with the fliptronic board. Did this ever work? Maybe more history is needed.
Quoted from DumbAss:The wiring looks correct (assuming the wire attached to the center lug is YEL-BLU - it is hard to tell with the high ISO due to poor illumination).
What happens when in test (not in a game)? Do you get the same behavior? Make sure to do testing with the coin door closed due to the high power interlock switch.
Does the solenoid only "double fire" once? Or does it "machine gun"?
I don't have any evidence but I would suspect a potential problem with the fliptronic board. Did this ever work? Maybe more history is needed.
Yes, the wiring attached to the center lug is yel-blu. In test the left flipper power test fires the flipper normally, no double firing. The left flipper hold test does nothing. The right flipper power test fires the flipper normally. The right flipper hold test makes an audible buzz and moves the flipper slightly. The solenoid only double fires once during gameplay, it does not machine gun. The left flipper worked well until I snapped the tightening bolt today and had to rebuild it. I had to remove the big connector on the board next to the left flipper assembly to get access to the screws.
Quoted from sullivcd40:In test the left flipper power test fires the flipper normally, no double firing. The left flipper hold test does nothing. The right flipper power test fires the flipper normally. The right flipper hold test makes an audible buzz and moves the flipper slightly.
This points more to a fliptronic drive transistor (or digital logic) problem. The hold test should produce some kind of buzz. The winding is weak but should still generate a magnetic field.
Quoted from sullivcd40:Yes, the wiring attached to the center lug is yel-blu. In test the left flipper power test fires the flipper normally, no double firing. The left flipper hold test does nothing. The right flipper power test fires the flipper normally. The right flipper hold test makes an audible buzz and moves the flipper slightly. The solenoid only double fires once during gameplay, it does not machine gun. The left flipper worked well until I snapped the tightening bolt today and had to rebuild it. I had to remove the big connector on the board next to the left flipper assembly to get access to the screws.
Side note, if you’re torquing it so much that the bolt snaps, that’s too tight. It requires some force, but not Hulk strength!
The upper flipper opto is just because they only have one type of flipper board, Williams wasn’t going to order new boards for a few games that didn’t have an upper flipper. Post a picture of your cabinet switch just for the heck of it.
I still feel like it’s probably a physical issue, such as the hold winding. I had a wire break on my WCS and we had a heck of a time figuring that out because it actually worked with the playfield up, but not with it down. Broken wire on the backside of the coil against the bracket.
That hold winding wire is really thin and easy to break where it connects to the coil lug. I would replace the coil and see what happens.
Quoted from DumbAss:Verify the winding is intact. Power off. Measure the resistance across the outer lugs. This is FL-11629 so it should be in the 150 Ohm range. I cannot remember the exact number but it should be between 100 and 200 Ohms.
I could not get a reading between the 2 outer lugs, I poked all around for a few minutes. The right flipper lugs read around 130, spec is 133. This must be the issue!
Quoted from Isochronic_Frost:Side note, if you’re torquing it so much that the bolt snaps, that’s too tight. It requires some force, but not Hulk strength!
I was using a new tool and perhaps went a bit overboard. It's still pretty ridiculous that the bolt just snapped though imo. I've had so much frustration with flipper adjustments since getting into the hobby, The upper flipper on Stargate on particular took me to the brink of insanity.
Quoted from sullivcd40:I was using a new tool and perhaps went a bit overboard. It's still pretty ridiculous that the bolt just snapped though imo.
A little off-topic, but I have noticed that the bolts used in the linkages available now ARE weaker than the bolts used back in the 90s. I have snapped more than my fair share of newer linkage bolts than I ever did two or three decades ago, yup.
Quoted from Coyote:A little off-topic, but I have noticed that the bolts used in the linkages available now ARE weaker than the bolts used back in the 90s. I have snapped more than my fair share of newer linkage bolts than I ever did two or three decades ago, yup.
Thank you for that Coyote. The one I pulled out of the garbage was from an original Party Zone. I angrily torqued that down without issue.
Quoted from pinballplusMN:That hold winding wire is really thin and easy to break where it connects to the coil lug. I would replace the coil and see what happens.
I have an FL-11630 on hand that I'm going to install. It tested in spec and is a little weaker than FL-11629. It should at least tell me if the coil was is my issue.
Quoted from sullivcd40:Fixed! The 32 year old PZ parts at the bottom of my trash can saved the day! The only thing left now are the coin door lights. Huge thanks to all of you, Pinside is amazing!
That’s why I have a big box of old parts when I swap stuff out! Never know when you’ll need something in a pinch! They’ve saved me more than once.
Was it the coil in the end?
Quoted from Isochronic_Frost:That’s why I have a big box of old parts when I swap stuff out! Never know when you’ll need something in a pinch! They’ve saved me more than once.
Was it the coil in the end?
Yep, ended up being the coil. I looked over it closely after I got it out and couldn't find anything wrong. That's pinball I guess.
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