(Topic ID: 327162)

Warden Pinball Controller

By spooky_dj

1 year ago


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  • 89 posts
  • 45 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 months ago by PinMonk
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There are 89 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
#51 1 year ago
Quoted from snaroff:

The problem with PCB's under the PF is heat dissipation. The center of my R&M PF gets pretty darn warm...I have a strategically placed fan that helps circulate air for both the board and the flippers.

A warm PCB isn't necessarily a problem. Hot and warm can be relative though. Got an IR thermometer? Be curious to point one at one of those boards.

Flipper coil heat a different issue. I know people have different thoughts on how to handle it with sub-ms pulsing, I'm not qualified to speculate.

Quoted from snaroff:

My ONLY hope for the Warden Pinball Controllers is that it optimizes flipper feel/strength and minimizes heat. For many months, R&M suffered from "flipper fallback" and weakness. Seems like the software/hardware "dance" was difficult to dial-in and took Spooky awhile to nail completely.

This is the thing about changing hardware. Whatever you "dialed-in" on previous boards may not carry over. And the dance starts again.

Quoted from snaroff:

Kind of obvious that flipper behavior should be "job 1" for any pinball controller...

It's weird that in 2022 this isn't just a solved problem by now. Especially with dual wind coils. I'd welcome comments from Spooky on how this new board fares.

#52 1 year ago
Quoted from DakotaMike:

I must say, in all honesty, that I was disappointed to find out that Spooky will be using yet another boardset for Scooby Doo. Spooky has almost as many boardsets as they do game titles. As a repair person, it makes it very difficult when almost every one of your games has a different system. And I imagine it makes technical-support more challenging for you guys too!
So my question would be, will Spooky be sticking with this new system going forward? Dealing with the pain of learning yet another system would only be worth it if this will be your standard system for many years to come.
I think I'll cry if your next game after Scooby uses something different again!

I'm sure this came out of supply chain issues and keeping costs down, didn't do it solely to piss people off. Most of their customers will just get board replacements for free if anything goes wrong so the focus is not catered to repair shops.

#53 1 year ago
Quoted from Aurich:

A warm PCB isn't necessarily a problem. Hot and warm can be relative though. Got an IR thermometer? Be curious to point one at one of those boards.
Flipper coil heat a different issue. I know people have different thoughts on how to handle it with sub-ms pulsing, I'm not qualified to speculate.

This is the thing about changing hardware. Whatever you "dialed-in" on previous boards may not carry over. And the dance starts again.

It's weird that in 2022 this isn't just a solved problem by now. Especially with dual wind coils. I'd welcome comments from Spooky on how this new board fares.

A warm PCB might not be a problem, but a warm PF (topside) in a HUO environment is certainly a red flag. My games are rarely "on" for more than 30-60 minutes, and if the PF is warm topside with minimal usage, I have to wonder about how hot it would get in a freeplay arcade!

Last year I invested a considerable amount of time dialing in my R&M and collected a bunch of data to help quantify the flipper issues (PinMonk sent me the probes and harness). https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/aw-jeez-official-rick-and-morty-club/page/235#post-6181887

From my perspective, a pinball specific controller board should be doing most of the flipper heavy lifting with minimal firmware/software intervention. If the board isn't doing the heavy lifting, software heuristics are ultimately needed to make things work well.

#54 1 year ago

Gee..and I was going to make a pinotaur centaur to!

#55 1 year ago

Oh my, just poking my head in to see what this was about. Perhaps in brackets under thread heading you could add a warning "Total Nerd Thread"

Could anyone please direct me to the bitching, whining, drama threads please!

#56 1 year ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

Oh my, just poking my head in to see what this was about. Perhaps in brackets under thread heading you could add a warning "Total Nerd Thread"
Could anyone please direct me to the bitching, whining, drama threads please!

I had recommended those threads be annotated with a dumpster fire icon so you could more easily identify them when scrolling the forum.

#57 1 year ago

Any pics of this new system?

#58 1 year ago
Quoted from snaroff:

A warm PCB might not be a problem, but a warm PF (topside) in a HUO environment is certainly a red flag. My games are rarely "on" for more than 30-60 minutes, and if the PF is warm topside with minimal usage, I have to wonder about how hot it would get in a freeplay arcade!
Last year I invested a considerable amount of time dialing in my R&M and collected a bunch of data to help quantify the flipper issues (PinMonk sent me the probes and harness). https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/aw-jeez-official-rick-and-morty-club/page/235#post-6181887
From my perspective, a pinball specific controller board should be doing most of the flipper heavy lifting with minimal firmware/software intervention. If the board isn't doing the heavy lifting, software heuristics are ultimately needed to make things work well.

Try loading a game up with #44 incandescent bulbs and see how hot the playfield gets, you know like every game for decades. Outside of flipper fade due to overheating I think this is much to do about nothing.

#59 1 year ago
Quoted from bobukcat:

Try loading a game up with #44 incandescent bulbs and see how hot the playfield gets, you know like every game for decades. Outside of flipper fade due to overheating I think this is much to do about nothing.

I've owned plenty of older games with incandescent lights and still own a couple. No doubt that if you always look back, it easy to justify not wanting to move forward. For years, many collectors would shame people for upgrading to LED's

In today's world with various engineering advancements, less heat is better than more. Sucks that Sterns have noisy fans...no fans would be ideal. And yes, I realize I can "upgrade" my Stern's to have less noisy fans...

#60 1 year ago

Would definitely be cool to see a pic of the new board

#61 1 year ago
Quoted from spooky_dj:

Before Spooky, I worked in defense, designing control systems for autonomous submarines. Before that, I was designing vision/radar development platforms for autonomous driving for the automotive industry.
I see what y'all are getting at with the optional through hole pad. We can probably make that work.
The warden does have some smarts regarding LED data. For example, the PC can send a single serial command "blink this light using these colors at this speed" and the warden will continue to blink that LED without any further communication needed. The connection to the host PC is 115200 baud UART, so the warden has built in functionality to handle the timing critical stuff like flipper and sling control, without having to communicate back to the PC first.

Does this mean battleship is in the future??

#62 1 year ago

Hmm... head-to-head online play, where you hit two target banks to select a location to bomb on your opponent's field? That might sell!

#63 1 year ago
Quoted from spooky_dj:

Hmm... head-to-head online play, where you hit two target banks to select a location to bomb on your opponent's field? That might sell!

Don't get too wacky. Lawlor thought Safecracker was so revolutionary it would save Pinball. It did not. Just too annoying for the ops and weird for the general public.

#64 1 year ago
Quoted from GoldenBeard:

Does this mean battleship is in the future??

Quoted from spooky_dj:

Hmm... head-to-head online play, where you hit two target banks to select a location to bomb on your opponent's field? That might sell!

Maybe we can just hope for a Torpedo Alley 2.0

spooky_dj What is the typical warranty length on Spooky boards, and do you plan on releasing full schematics?

#65 1 year ago
Quoted from La4s:

Maybe we can just hope for a Torpedo Alley 2.0
spooky_dj What is the typical warranty length on Spooky boards, and do you plan on releasing full schematics?

Full schematics are coming. We legally have a warranty period of several months, I think. However we usually will still help you out if you're past warranty. As far as the warden goes, if you just send us your old/broken one, we'll send you a replacement. We'll probably do that for the life of the warden system, which should be at least 5 years.

2 months later
#66 1 year ago
Quoted from spooky_dj:

Yep I'll publish documentation in the near future. Namely schematics and wiring diagram.

Have you posted this anywhere yet? I haven't been able to find pics or basic schematics for The Warden anywhere...

#67 1 year ago

Not yet; after the next major code update drops I'll take some time to prepare those docs. I'll put the info here for sure, and I'll try to keep the info on pinwiki up to date as well.

#68 1 year ago
Quoted from spooky_dj:

Not yet; after the next major code update drops I'll take some time to prepare those docs. I'll put the info here for sure, and I'll try to keep the info on pinwiki up to date as well.

Quoted from spooky_dj:

Full schematics are coming. We legally have a warranty period of several months, I think. However we usually will still help you out if you're past warranty. As far as the warden goes, if you just send us your old/broken one, we'll send you a replacement. We'll probably do that for the life of the warden system, which should be at least 5 years.

what about full restore images for all of your games? stern and jjp have that.

#69 1 year ago

I can't promise that for all of our games, but I sure should be able to do so for Scooby at least!

2 months later
#70 11 months ago

Been kind of quiet here, but Spooky DJ, can you give us all an understanding of the Flipper Theory of Operation with the new Warden system?

All 4 of Scooby's flippers use FL-11629s, but the upper playfield flippers have wires on only 2 lugs and the lower flippers have wires on all 3.

How does the Warden handle kick and hold voltages, what exactly do the EOS switches do (this varies from manufacturer to manufacturer)

Thanks!

RussM

#71 11 months ago

Sure thing! The PC first sends the warden some configuration commands so it knows how to control the flippers, so during gameplay, it's all handled by the warden; no waiting on the relatively slow serial connection to the PC. The switches are all monitored by a system of I/O expander chips which use interrupts to "instantly" alert the warden that a switch state has changed. The warden checks if it's related to flipper control, and sends a command to update the drive strength of a coil, if necessary. Total time between switch hit and coil activation/deactivation should all happen in under 1 millisecond (actually less than ~100 *micro*seconds I think (2x 4 microsecond interrupt stages, and 3x I2C transactions at ~1M baud (I2C bus runs at 1MHz IIRC, but there's a few microseconds between each transaction too) though thinking about it more, it's possible I actually left the bus speed lower (400kHz or 100kHz), but either way, I think that still works out to sub millisecond response time)).

As for the actual control logic, as soon as a flipper button is pressed, the warden will enter the "flip" stage, and activate both the high power, and low power flipper coils at specific power levels, controlled by setting the duty cycle of the PWM signal that drives them. From here, one of three things can happen next: the flipper button could be released, which will instantly deactivate both coils, the end-of-stroke switch could close, indicating the flipper is all the way up, in which case both the high and low power coils switch to their "hold" state power levels, which is just a lower power setting that can be held indefinitely, or, if for some reason the EOS never triggers, an internal timer will trigger the hold state after some set amount of time (on the order of milliseconds). While the flipper is in the hold state, if the flipper button is released, both coils deactivate, or, if the flipper button is still pressed, and the EOS opens (likely caused by a fast ball return knocking the flipper down) the flipper will basically re-flip to keep itself up, again switching back to the hold state as soon as the EOS closes again, or deactivating if the flipper button is released. Basically, it is designed to behave exactly like a dual-coil EM system would, with the added benefit of being able to use both coils in both the hold and flip stages, and having a time limit on the flip stage in case of EOS failure.

And it works quite well! This system allows you to perform micro-flips and tap passes with a little practice! That was really my main focus for the flipper system; make it as responsive as possible, so you can achieve these more advanced techniques. I love being able to tap pass on my older games; it can be a very useful technique, safer than a post pass (some games didn't even have posts to pass with!), and feels really d*** good when you pull it off. I could tap pass for days on mushy gottlieb flippers haha. Much more difficult to pull off on more modern machines, probably due to lighter/higher power/snappier flippers, too much software debounce, or potentially some amount of delay, depending on how the system monitors switch inputs.

The upper flippers really work the same way, just with a single coil wired up, which works out well since they don't need to be as powerful as the main flippers, and likewise, don't see as fast of ball returns.

That reminds me, I owe y'all some files. The next code update is wrapping up, so I had some downtime to upload the schematics and a closeup shot of the warden for those interested last week.
Here's a link to the schematic.
Here's a link to the image.

Cheers! Back to coding for me.

coding.gifcoding.gif
How I eat cheese balls without getting the keyboard dirty

#72 11 months ago

Why would you need to energize the power winding during the hold phase? Seems like the hold winding by itself should be adequate?

#73 11 months ago

Thanks, DJ!

Have a few questions once I read it through a few times LOL.

RM

#74 11 months ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Why would you need to energize the power winding during the hold phase? Seems like the hold winding by itself should be adequate?

It's not strictly speaking necessary, but could help with certain things like heat distribution, or eeking a little more power out if needed.

I also generated a sort of assembly/reference drawing y'all may find useful. I'll throw it on our website soon. I aim to throw this info onto pinwiki in the future too, unless somebody wants to beat me to the punch.

Assembly Diagram

1 month later
#75 9 months ago

DJ, can you please explain to me the fuse situation in the Warden system.

The Warden board uses these "F110" SMD fuses.

I have no idea how they work, how to test them, or how to replace them if they pop or are they "resettable" whatever that means.

Are there no traditional glass-type fuses in Scooby?

Thanks.

RussM

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
#76 9 months ago
Quoted from RussMyers:

DJ, can you please explain to me the fuse situation in the Warden system.
The Warden board uses these "F110" SMD fuses.
I have no idea how they work, how to test them, or how to replace them if they pop or are they "resettable" whatever that means.
Are there no traditional glass-type fuses in Scooby?
Thanks.
RussM[quoted image]

Those are polyfuses. Where a glass fuse would pop, these open up and can then "heal."

Aaron
FAST Pinball

1 week later
#77 9 months ago

What does it mean when game won't boot and gives me a no warden detected?

#78 9 months ago
Quoted from Crispy:

What does it mean when game won't boot and gives me a no warden detected?

Check the USB cable from the PC in the backbox to the Warden board? Try another USB cable if you have one on hand to rule out a bad cable.

#79 9 months ago
Quoted from Jigz:

Check the USB cable from the PC in the backbox to the Warden board? Try another USB cable if you have one on hand to rule out a bad cable.

Thanks, seeded all cables. Just talked with spooky, sending out a new board.

#80 9 months ago
Quoted from Crispy:Thanks, seeded all cables. Just talked with spooky, sending out a new board.

Same issue and waiting on our new board as well.

1 week later
#81 8 months ago

So, installed new board. Game working except the apron lock doesn't work and it will spit balls out randomly, then crash sometimes. I'm losing my patience! Haven't really been able to play as it's always down grrrrr

1 month later
#82 7 months ago

Anyone know the trouble LED codes for the board? Mine is flashing white & orange.

1 week later
#83 7 months ago
Quoted from spooky_dj:

Just going to reply all here:
Yep I'll publish documentation in the near future. Namely schematics and wiring diagram.
All machines will be shipping [...] The games are still coded in unity (C#). The warden firmware is written in C.

I've been curious how the game play logic - ball goes here so X unless Y threshold met... - is implemented in modern games, particularly spooky's as I enjoy Scooby so much and appreciate the on-going improvements. Has anything else been shared about that topic beyond this reference to game coded in Unity C#?

#84 7 months ago
Quoted from CurtisC:

Anyone know the trouble LED codes for the board? Mine is flashing white & orange.

White orange is just the default bootup state. Once the PC connects with the warden, it will change to blinking blue. If you aren't seeing the blue light, there's something preventing communication between the two. You can try a different USB cable, otherwise give our service line a call and they'll get things sorted out.

Quoted from CletusTheSuprDog:

I've been curious how the game play logic - ball goes here so X unless Y threshold met... - is implemented in modern games, particularly spooky's as I enjoy Scooby so much and appreciate the on-going improvements. Has anything else been shared about that topic beyond this reference to game coded in Unity C#?

The answer gets pretty involved. The Warden mainly monitors the hardware for changes and reports back to the pc where the game code runs. In the case of scooby, there's a main message bus everything listens to and communicates through. The Warden delivers a message that switch 2 became active, for example. It's then up to each 'mode' of the game to determine whether that switch is something it cares about. Each mode can contain any manner of design pattern to accomplish the game logic it needs to. But it's just standard object oriented programming really.

3 months later
#85 4 months ago

spooky_dj With all the complaints of flipper whine, have you experimented with switching frequency on the PCA9685? It's quite noticeable on my machine, even to my 50 year old ears. It is coming from the coils themselves as it's there even with amp turned off. Upper flippers seem worse. Even a small change to switching frequency might get the coils to stop ringing so much. I'm tempted to spin up an experiment to inject my own I2C command to change frequency, but obviously the trivial solution is to just work it into the Warden firmware.

#86 4 months ago
Quoted from kezorm:

spooky_dj With all the complaints of flipper whine, have you experimented with switching frequency on the PCA9685? It's quite noticeable on my machine, even to my 50 year old ears. It is coming from the coils themselves as it's there even with amp turned off. Upper flippers seem worse. Even a small change to switching frequency might get the coils to stop ringing so much. I'm tempted to spin up an experiment to inject my own I2C command to change frequency, but obviously the trivial solution is to just work it into the Warden firmware.

This ^^^^^

I am also experiencing this issue. Even with the sound turned up I can still hear it (though it is much more prevalent on the left flipper than the right flipper). Is changing the frequency something that could be done with a code update?

#87 4 months ago
Quoted from Stormfront:

This ^^^^^
I am also experiencing this issue. Even with the sound turned up I can still hear it (though it is much more prevalent on the left flipper than the right flipper). Is changing the frequency something that could be done with a code update?

Left side definitely worse on mine. Surprised my dogs don’t go nuts when I play with the high pitched whine. I turned off the upper flippers to always on but there was a lag from the upper flippers engaging from when the ball made it to the upper playfield so the book case flipper didn’t trap the ball.

2 weeks later
#88 3 months ago

There is flipper whine on Halloween too especially the left flipper.

#89 3 months ago
Quoted from waletboy:

There is flipper whine on Halloween too especially the left flipper.

You can fix coil whine with inductors by encasing them in silicone goo (THE way to quiet electroluminescent panel power supplies). Unfortunately that's not an option with flipper coils.

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