(Topic ID: 327162)

Warden Pinball Controller

By spooky_dj

1 year ago


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  • 89 posts
  • 45 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 78 days ago by PinMonk
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#1 1 year ago

Introducing Spooky Pinball's new pinball control system, the Warden!
We nerds can discuss the nitty gritty technical details in this thread so we don't clog up game threads with our technobabble

The Warden is a pinball control system developed 100% in-house at Spooky Pinball. We primarily made this transition to take advantage of benefits in the manufacturing process, including full control over firmware and hardware, allowing us to do quick turnaround if we need to update anything due to bug fixes, supply chain issues, or feature expansion! We will still support games with the Pinheck and Pinotaur for the foreseeable future, but we do intend to primarily use the Warden going forward. Specs sheet, and more design details soon to come!

#2 1 year ago

I don't want to get super technical, but why is it green? Is that just a prototype Shaggy version?

10
#3 1 year ago

Please provide some manuals and documentation when available. Spooky is historically really bad about this with their games in general. If this is "the system" for now please document it as such.

Anyhow, I like how you have more satellite boards. Less connectors = less swearing during removal and installation (looking at you Pinotaur)

What can you tell me about the solenoid drivers? They look SMD, which is fine. Do you include the option for thru hole replacements? Because that would be amazing (see CobraPin controller as an example)

What sort of technical information can you provide. It looks like it does some amount of direct switch inputs, serial chain lighting outputs, and then some solenoid outputs. Typical stuff. Any interesting features? Does it have any sort of expandability like Stern Node Boards?

I remember there was some talk about Pinotaur being based on OPP and MPF compatible and it may be sold to homebrewers later. I'm guessing that was all scrapped? And now it sounds proprietary? This is fine, there are plenty of great homebrew controller options out there.

Are there any other technical features, repair considerations, etc... that you want to show off? Does it have over current protection on coils? I think that is an underrated feature of the Spike system.

#4 1 year ago

Neat! Here are my curiosities:

Is the game still mainly run from Linux mini PC?

Can you share pictures and short description of each board?

How much of the design and testing are done in-house? I am mainly wondering about power/thermal/emi/shock and vibe testing.

Are these derivatives/iterations from Pinataur or from scratch designs? Is Mr. Heck involved still?

#5 1 year ago

Green is the cheapest option when buying PCBs in small qtys!
Though production games will probably ship with a "daphne purple" PCB!
I suppose upon special request we could also do Fred Blue.

#6 1 year ago

What’s the framework used in coding a game? Or maybe since it was made in-house it’s straight c++ and no framework.

#7 1 year ago

Standby guys; I gotta get ready for the stream, then I'll hop back in here to answer your questions!

#8 1 year ago
Quoted from luvthatapex2:

What’s the framework used in coding a game? Or maybe since it was made in-house it’s straight c++ and no framework.

Yeah as this is an all new framework, what will stuff like the service menu look like and how functional will it be? I know these things take time, but a standardized service menu that's fully featured would be great. Just try to design it more like JJP, where it uses the LCD screen in helpful ways while troubleshooting, and less like Stern that still looks like it's from 1993.

#9 1 year ago

Pinotar we hardly knew ya.

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#10 1 year ago

Reposting this here from the hype thread now that there's a dedicated technical thread:

Thanks for the reply.

Sub millisecond duty cycles only really help a lot with runaway temps in hold, so regular play wouldn't really show up the benefit. A quick and dirty test is if you jam a flipper into hold (manually make the flipper switch blades stay in contact) and measure that coil temp over a half hour of holding on the microsecond (sub-1ms) duty cycles it's essentially temp stable with just a degree or two of increase. On the 1ms duty cycle you will see the temp continue to increase in hold, so it will be quite a bit higher at the end of that half hour just holding.

If you are still only doing 1ms duty cycles, trap players will probably be driving the flipper coils to fade on this. It's why I keep preaching the gospel of treading the path Stern has blazed with microsecond duty cycles on their spike system. It's solved temp increases in hold, which is a big piece of the fade puzzle.

#11 1 year ago
Quoted from spooky_dj:

Standby guys; I gotta get ready for the stream, then I'll hop back in here to answer your questions!

There's a stream?

#12 1 year ago
Quoted from Kevlar:

There's a stream?

Facebook, with a youtube mirror/relay stream promised for the smart people.

Haven't seen any links yet, though.

#14 1 year ago

Ooh new boards. The homebrewer in me loves it, the operator in me hates it...

10
#15 1 year ago

Just going to reply all here:

Yep I'll publish documentation in the near future. Namely schematics and wiring diagram.
All machines will be shipping with surface mount transistors. After the wardens for the whole run have been manufactured, we can then do a run with through hole transistors if a decent amount of people want them. They likely would cost a bit more than the surface mount version, but you could send your surface mount board back to us for credit toward the through hole version. We may sell them to the general public in the future, but no plans are currently in motion to support that.

Here's some basic specs:

24 controllable 48V outputs with millisecond PWM and TVS diodes. Divided into 3 banks with PTC resettable fuses on each bank.
A bank of 8 configurable outputs which can each be individually configured as one of:
-controllable 12V output with ms PWM, TVS, PTC
-controllable 5V output with optional pullup, ms PWM, TVS, PTC
-servo control output, TVS on data line, PTC
8 banks of 8 switch inputs (64 total)
4 I2C expansion ports
-2 switch input interrupts in each port, each capable of addressing an additional 64 switch inputs (512 total switch inputs across all 4 ports)
2 serial ports configured to drive clocked serial RGB LED chains
USB type A port for serial communication with host PC
optional flash expansion
optional SD card slot
tag-connect programming header
2 on-board RGB status LEDs
ports to hook into on-board serial and i2c busses
reverse input voltage protection

All design, and some assembly is done in house. We did a gauntlet of testing on the initial batch over a year ago, and the design has seen somewhere in the neighborhood of 4000 games played, and most boards have seen several hundred cycles of lifting the playfield up. No major issues to speak of. They are designed to be robust after all; mounting points near most connectors to limit flex, the few shock/vibe sensitive components like MLCCs are placed far from areas of stress. The boards are fabbed as 4-layer 1.6mm with 2oz outer copper and 1oz internal, heat resistant substrate (TG-155 FR4). The PTC fuses are fantastic too! If somehow a coil gets stuck on, they can prevent the transistor and coil from frying, but return to normal operation after power is removed for a moment, so no more having to manually change fuses while you troubleshoot a troublesome coil! I've even seen them save transistors when a diode was wired in backwards! Though, I wouldn't expect that to happen consistently haha.

Generally, the power and coil stuff uses the familiar Molex Mini-fit Jr. family of connectors. Switch inputs are 10-pin (8 inputs, 1 5V power, 1 ground) 0.1" headers with a friction lock. All the low voltage/comms stuff uses 8p8c connectors/common ethernet cabling. The I2C expansion ports can communicate with any other I2C device, allowing for all manner of expansion boards. Optos are plugged into a 16-input daughter board connected to a switch input bank.

This is a new design. I did design it to be similar to the Pinotaur in function simply because we needed it to be a near drop in replacement, but the actual architecture under the hood is completely new. Ben isn't involved with the warden, but we are working with him on other stuff.

The game is still run on a mini-pc (though the warden alone could probably run a DMD era game just fine, given an audio output expansion). The warden basically controls frame buffers for LED data, monitors for switch state changes, and drives the outputs that control mechs. The games are still coded in unity (C#). The warden firmware is written in C.

The service menu and settings are actually all stored on the PC. The warden starts up effectively in a sleep state and waits for serial comms from the host PC. I think you'll really dig the service menu in scooby though. If not for the LCD, all that stuff could be moved onto the warden, but since the PC is there, it makes sense to organize it that way. The warden can handle timing-critical tasks, like flipper and sling control also.

Last I heard, Parker/Ben did still intend to make the Pinotaur available to the public, but I don't know the timeline, or if that's still their intention. I do believe they're still being produced at least!

#16 1 year ago

What credentials or background does the engineer that designed this have?

#17 1 year ago

Would it be a huge effort to convert a HWN/UM to the Warden since they have a similar design?

#18 1 year ago

My comment on thru hole was more of a feature request than a different model request (and I think a lot would want that thru hole). Look at how CobraPin uses surface mount, but then provides the holes for easier replacement

That’s a great feature. Maybe another iteration in the future

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#19 1 year ago

I think people can just learn to solder SMD. It's really not that hard.

#20 1 year ago

I would buy a hot air (de-)solder tool and practice for an hour or so reworking surface mount components.

I grew up in the 1980s totally into electronics, etching my own PCBs and eventually made it a career. I soldered a *lot*, learning it with enthusiasm because it was a hobby.

My employer produces WCSP with 0.4mm pitch and frankly, I find it easier hand replacing a tiny WCSP chip with 20 solder balls than replacing one through hole part in a multi layer board without damaging something.

Replacing an SMD transistor is super easy, much easier than a through hole part. Just try it.

#21 1 year ago

So are the LED animations/flashing/etc handled on the warden, or is it just clocking in frames from the PC constantly?

#22 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

So are the LED animations/flashing/etc handled on the warden, or is it just clocking in frames from the PC constantly?

Quoted from spooky_dj:

The warden basically controls frame buffers for LED data, monitors for switch state changes, and drives the outputs that control mechs.

I think this answers your question - The host PC tells the warden "LED at 50% pwm", and the Warden handles the PWM control.

#23 1 year ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

I think people can just learn to solder SMD. It's really not that hard.

In general I 100% agree with this statement but then I've been doing SMD work since the early 90s. I think the concern by some is that apparently the pinotaur board can sustain a lot damage from a shorted SMD transistor, maybe even making it un-repairable. I'm just picking this up from random comments I've read in the HWN/UM threads, I have no first-hand experience with any Spooky boardsets.

#24 1 year ago
Quoted from galore2112:

I would buy a hot air (de-)solder tool and practice for an hour or so reworking surface mount components.
I grew up in the 1980s totally into electronics, etching my own PCBs and eventually made it a career. I soldered a *lot*, learning it with enthusiasm because it was a hobby.
My employer produces WCSP with 0.4mm pitch and frankly, I find it easier hand replacing a tiny WCSP chip with 20 solder balls than replacing one through hole part in a multi layer board without damaging something.
Replacing an SMD transistor is super easy, much easier than a through hole part. Just try it.

I have done it with a 40 watt iron and braid, its not hard. I have replaced ram chips on a video card in the same fashion.

#25 1 year ago

Yall should hire this guy as the ambassador and mascot of the new board system

sj (resized).pngsj (resized).png
#26 1 year ago
Quoted from Coyote:

I think this answers your question - The host PC tells the warden "LED at 50% pwm", and the Warden handles the PWM control.

Yeah but what if the LED is supposed to flash on and off, or pulse? Or do some more complicated effect (two colors alternating, etc)?

#27 1 year ago

All the game programming logic is controlled by the PC via unity and c#.

"The game is still run on a mini-pc (though the warden alone could probably run a DMD era game just fine, given an audio output expansion). The warden basically controls frame buffers for LED data, monitors for switch state changes, and drives the outputs that control mechs. The games are still coded in unity (C#). The warden firmware is written in C."

Quoted from zacaj:

Yeah but what if the LED is supposed to flash on and off, or pulse? Or do some more complicated effect (two colors alternating, etc)?

#28 1 year ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

I think people can just learn to solder SMD. It's really not that hard.

I just think having that through hole option already on the board is a really nice feature, especially if you need to do repair work in the field.

#29 1 year ago

"2 serial ports configured to drive clocked serial RGB LED chains"

That's pretty wild to control 200 leds with just 2 ports.

#30 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Yeah but what if the LED is supposed to flash on and off, or pulse? Or do some more complicated effect (two colors alternating, etc)?

Considering it has RAM and a small CPU in one format or the other, I'm guessing it COULD_ handle flashing, strobing, and fades itself.
Now, whether it DOES or not.. obviously can't answer that.

#31 1 year ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

I think people can just learn to solder SMD. It's really not that hard.

Do you have any tips? I tried SMD once and it wasn't pretty. I'd like to learn and I have some spare components I can practice on.

#32 1 year ago
Quoted from Palmer:

Do you have any tips? I tried SMD once and it wasn't pretty. I'd like to learn and I have some spare components I can practice on.

get something like this:
https://www.amazon.com/Gikfun-Welding-Practice-Soldering-Training/dp/B00VWB8F8K

#33 1 year ago
Quoted from spooky_dj:

The service menu and settings are actually all stored on the PC. The warden starts up effectively in a sleep state and waits for serial comms from the host PC. I think you'll really dig the service menu in scooby though. If not for the LCD, all that stuff could be moved onto the warden, but since the PC is there, it makes sense to organize it that way. The warden can handle timing-critical tasks, like flipper and sling control also.

But that board has no networking so you may need an PC for any online stuff and you want to store the settings for networking on the main CPU OS disk.

#34 1 year ago

PC is needed to run unity to code the game see above from DJ.

Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

But that board has no networking so you may need an PC for any online stuff and you want to store the settings for networking on the main CPU OS disk.

#35 1 year ago
Quoted from Palmer:

Do you have any tips? I tried SMD once and it wasn't pretty. I'd like to learn and I have some spare components I can practice on.

Like others have mentioned get a hot air station and take it easy. Set the air at 280-300c and turn the air flow way down for components where you are using one of the pencil tube tips. If the components are being blown off the pads as the paste melts, turn down your leaf blower.

For a fresh pad and component, just put enough solder paste from your syringe to have a dot on the pads. For things like chips with rows of pads, don't hesitate to just put one thin line of paste across the entire set of pads.

SMD hot air soldering is different from through hole too in that you want to follow some sort of heating profile. With through hole, you just touch the iron to the part until it's hot enough to melt solder. With hot air soldering there are a couple different phases you should be aware of as you do it. This is a much simplified version so any experts please pardon the brevity, but in general there's a pre-soak where you get the part and the surrounding area up to right when the paste starts to liquefy a tiny bit, then you want to raise the temp of the part and the joints to melt the paste and let surface tension do its thing.

The same is true for removing a component. Pre-soak the component and the area around it, then melt the joints and remove it.

#36 1 year ago
Quoted from Damonator:

Would it be a huge effort to convert a HWN/UM to the Warden since they have a similar design?

I’m curious about this as well. I’m more concerned that since only HW/UM use the pinotaur, we’re going to need a replacement option in the future as chances are no one is going to do a run of pinotaurs when only 1750 games used them. I’m not worried about immediate board replacements, but those that would be needed in the future. I would be willing to go through a lengthy conversion process if it meant some future-proofing for parts.

#37 1 year ago

I doubt this would be possible since Spooky would need to make the large serial light boards for HWN/UM. Why would they do that? If you are so concerned about futureproofing your HW/UM ask to purchase a spare pinotaur.

Quoted from TVsFrank:

I’m curious about this as well. I’m more concerned that since only HW/UM use the pinotaur, we’re going to need a replacement option in the future as chances are no one is going to do a run of pinotaurs when only 1750 games used them. I’m not worried about immediate board replacements, but those that would be needed in the future. I would be willing to go through a lengthy conversion process if it meant some future-proofing for parts.

#38 1 year ago

Sorry dumb question, if the main board connects via a USB A cable to the warden board does that mean it's using <= USB 3.0 protocol and subject to the bus latency for frame timing or is it just using the form factor and doing whatever serial protocol it wants over the wires?

#39 1 year ago
Quoted from luvthatapex2:

I doubt this would be possible since Spooky would need to make the large serial light boards for HWN/UM. Why would they do that? If you are so concerned about futureproofing your HW/UM ask to purchase a spare pinotaur.

They're serial LEDs, the driver board shouldn't care what actual way the LEDs are mounted/wired. HW also uses serial leds, just individually wired/mounted

Quoted from luvthatapex2:

"2 serial ports configured to drive clocked serial RGB LED chains"
That's pretty wild to control 200 leds with just 2 ports.

Pretty sure they can do more than that. Probably at least 256 per port, assuming the chip driving them can run fast enough.

11
#40 1 year ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

What credentials or background does the engineer that designed this have?

Before Spooky, I worked in defense, designing control systems for autonomous submarines. Before that, I was designing vision/radar development platforms for autonomous driving for the automotive industry.

I see what y'all are getting at with the optional through hole pad. We can probably make that work.

The warden does have some smarts regarding LED data. For example, the PC can send a single serial command "blink this light using these colors at this speed" and the warden will continue to blink that LED without any further communication needed. The connection to the host PC is 115200 baud UART, so the warden has built in functionality to handle the timing critical stuff like flipper and sling control, without having to communicate back to the PC first.

#41 1 year ago
Quoted from spooky_dj:

designing control systems for autonomous submarines.

I am intrigued...and also frightened!

You know what they say...pinball is not easy, and neither is designing controls systems for autonomous submarines!

#42 1 year ago
Quoted from spooky_dj:

Before Spooky, I worked in defense, designing control systems for autonomous submarines.

So any chance Scooby Doo will be like weird science and in the middle of the game a ballistic missile will rise up out of the middle of the playfield ?

LTG : )

#43 1 year ago

Interested in a reply as well on this

Quoted from TVsFrank:

I’m curious about this as well. I’m more concerned that since only HW/UM use the pinotaur, we’re going to need a replacement option in the future as chances are no one is going to do a run of pinotaurs when only 1750 games used them. I’m not worried about immediate board replacements, but those that would be needed in the future. I would be willing to go through a lengthy conversion process if it meant some future-proofing for parts.

#44 1 year ago

No worries; we have several hundred pinotaurs here we can use for repairs/replacements for years to come. We'll likely order more in the future too; I believe parker is still manufacturing them.

#45 1 year ago
Quoted from LTG:

So any chance Scooby Doo will be like weird science and in the middle of the game a ballistic missile will rise up out of the middle of the playfield ?
LTG : )

No, it will be a submarine!!!

#46 1 year ago

Do you expect to have an interface available for an external device to read game states?

#47 1 year ago
Quoted from RobF:

Do you expect to have an interface available for an external device to read game states?

Absolutely! Should be able to just hook into the serial bus to communicate with both the host PC and the Warden. The header might not be populated by default, but should be easy to solder in.

#48 1 year ago

I must say, in all honesty, that I was disappointed to find out that Spooky will be using yet another boardset for Scooby Doo. Spooky has almost as many boardsets as they do game titles. As a repair person, it makes it very difficult when almost every one of your games has a different system. And I imagine it makes technical-support more challenging for you guys too!

So my question would be, will Spooky be sticking with this new system going forward? Dealing with the pain of learning yet another system would only be worth it if this will be your standard system for many years to come.

I think I'll cry if your next game after Scooby uses something different again!

#49 1 year ago
Quoted from DakotaMike:

I must say, in all honesty, that I was disappointed to find out that Spooky will be using yet another boardset for Scooby Doo. Spooky has almost as many boardsets as they do game titles. As a repair person, it makes it very difficult when almost every one of your games has a different system. And I imagine it makes technical-support more challenging for you guys too!
So my question would be, will Spooky be sticking with this new system going forward? Dealing with the pain of learning yet another system would only be worth it if this will be your standard system for many years to come.

This new system looks nice, it looks smart, and I hope it works out great. But I understand how people can also feel anxious or disappointed about it instead of excited. You might worry about service for your games down the line because boards/parts might not exist, or wonder if the new system will have some issues that buyers end up having to deal with ala WOZ light boards etc. Spooky will need to do some reassuring I'm sure.

That said, I no longer own a Spooky game, and I'm going to play my friend's Scooby-Doo instead of owning one, so I'm just a sideline viewer without anything to personally stress over. That means I'm enjoying seeing the nerdy details!

spooky_dj I know the hype thread for SD has an under the playfield photo, but at some point if you could post more here and talk about it a bit more like you did in the other thread that would be great. It's hard to dig up those posts in that long thread now.

What I'm seeing is PCBs with LEDs on them probably saving a lot of time on assembly (and probably cheaper over all too even outside of labor) and what looks like less wiring. Which again has got to be saving time.

This trend towards big PCBs on the underside of playfields sure looks different, but I think it's a good idea overall. But if you can't do surface mount repair might be time to learn or at least have a local resource for it. (I'm the latter, got a homie to handle it for me, heh.) Through hole just isn't going to be enough in the world we're in.

#50 1 year ago
Quoted from Aurich:

This new system looks nice, it looks smart, and I hope it works out great. But I understand how people can also feel anxious or disappointed about it instead of excited. You might worry about service for your games down the line because boards/parts might not exist, or wonder if the new system will have some issues that buyers end up having to deal with ala WOZ light boards etc. Spooky will need to do some reassuring I'm sure.
That said, I no longer own a Spooky game, and I'm going to play my friend's Scooby-Doo instead of owning one, so I'm just a sideline viewer without anything to personally stress over. That means I'm enjoying seeing the nerdy details!
spooky_dj I know the hype thread for SD has an under the playfield photo, but at some point if you could post more here and talk about it a bit more like you did in the other thread that would be great. It's hard to dig up those posts in that long thread now.
What I'm seeing is PCBs with LEDs on them probably saving a lot of time on assembly (and probably cheaper over all too even outside of labor) and what looks like less wiring. Which again has got to be saving time.
This trend towards big PCBs on the underside of playfields sure looks different, but I think it's a good idea overall. But if you can't do surface mount repair might be time to learn or at least have a local resource for it. (I'm the latter, got a homie to handle it for me, heh.) Through hole just isn't going to be enough in the world we're in.

The problem with PCB's under the PF is heat dissipation. The center of my R&M PF gets pretty darn warm...I have a strategically placed fan that helps circulate air for both the board and the flippers.

My ONLY hope for the Warden Pinball Controllers is that it optimizes flipper feel/strength and minimizes heat. For many months, R&M suffered from "flipper fallback" and weakness. Seems like the software/hardware "dance" was difficult to dial-in and took Spooky awhile to nail completely. Kind of obvious that flipper behavior should be "job 1" for any pinball controller...

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