To his credit, he did pick the best puppet of the bunch:

http://www.fiverr.com/categories/video-animation/puppetry/

Looks like the mob mentality has taken over. I'm no longer embarrassed for Vonnie D.

Kim

This situation can be boiled down to three words: Talk is cheap.

Crazy B.S speculation, hazing and crap-talking goes away when guys show results. Most of us hope that VonnieD has the greatest of success.

If I were Vonnie D right now, I'd gather my poncho and moccasins, go sit quietly under a waterfall for a little while and ponder, and then come back and be positive and go for it as hard as possible. And maybe rethink the approach with K.S.

It's not about Vonnie D or pinball anymore. It's about the puppets. My god, I never knew this subculture existed...pimping out your puppet?

Good call Chad. Except the waterfall stuff. You can't build a pinball there.

That's what needs to happen ... Take some time away, build a functioning machine that people can see and play, and then come back and present it to the crowd.

In other words, just copy everything that Ben Heck did with Ghost Squad.

It doesn't cost $100,000 to build a working prototype. Just a heap of man hours of unpaid labor and a few grand of parts. Or scrap a $1000 machine and use that as the basis.

rd.

There's some truth there. No money got involved until the very end.

Vonnie D is going to have to bankroll their way to a working game on their own or with private investors, the precedent has been set by Skit-B and Spooky for boutiques... can't come this early and expect anything different than the response we're seeing.

I understand that the majority of you want to see more of the machine. We will be posting images to our backers as the machine progresses. We just recut the whitewood and patched a little boo boo.

Von is out right now. After weeks of work, he deserves a two day break. I'll have him populate the field again and get a video up, when he gets back. This way you can tell us how how much further we have to go to be a serious player. It's not like we don't already know that challenges are ahead of us.

Also, I don't mind the criticism. It's not my first rodeo. I take it very lightly.

We have licensed themes secured for the future, however we were trying to give the pinball community something they demanded, an original theme.

Correct that they are on location at Gunther's Games. We also have 40-50 (video and pinball) games on location around town and a warehouse with 100+ more. And guess what? We are selling most of our unused inventory to make room for a production line and to finish our prototype.

The project is not dead. Whether we succeed on Kickstarter or not. We'll be showing a prototype at Pinball Expo. We felt it better to show the world that pinball is alive and well via crowdfunding and could support an original theme than to strap the pinball community with yet another licensed game right of the bat as our potential investor would require.

In case you haven't noticed, I've been running businesses for years. As Von mentioned in his opening post on this page, we could go through a private capitalist. But some of the proposed features would likely be left off the game as we would then have to pay back a note. I run all of my businesses with no debt. Secondly, I'm not halfway through a bottle of gin. I prefer bourbon.

Yes, it's the same. I run several businesses. Closing several in the last few years and opening new ones has made it very difficult for me to wade through all the tax laws. I'm not an accountant, nor am I a video guy obviously. But the paper grossly over reported the amount, which they later recanted. The rest has been settled. I've attached a copy of the No Tax Due certification from the state, as a response. (saving you from having to watch a response from a puppet)

WESLEY UPCHURCHT.pdf

Lots of good answers there. I'm glad that you guys will be at Pinball Expo with something to show, because that will certainly boost Vonnie D's reputation. As far as with the Kickstarter it was just too early, and I guess you guys have probably realized that by the reactions, but it's good to see that you guys are willing to do what the other start-ups have done and to keep working on your own money until you're able to show something people will be more willing to support.

Good on you for following up....it's a tough crowd in here.

OOO! Now you have our attention - List with prices!

But seriously, best of luck.

Good on you champ. We all look forward to seeing a working prototype up and running soon.

Once the crowd sees that, watch the orders come in.

rd.

A+ thank you for coming in and saying something! That's what I think we wanted (besides the obvious pics of whitewoods and such) - community involvement to let us know that you folks are indeed listening and understand the community concerns.

How's the synthetic drug business?

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/11_26/b4234058348635.htm#p1

¿Cómo?

really?

Here is the link

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/press_box/2011/06/the_dope_on_synthetic_pot.html

Wes

You've stumbled badly with your launch and have a lot of ground to make up. Not insurmountable but difficult. I see one of your Kickstarter backers is a friend of mine. He lives in your area so I’ll assume he can tell me more.

I’m glad some of the guys here are happy with your reply. Me, not so much. But I’ll leave it alone after the undeserved bashing so many have given you here.

Chicago Expo and October 15th isn't very far away. After your unfortunate beginning you guys and your prototype will have to be pretty damn spectacular.

I wish you well and hope you can pull it off. I’ll be at Expo and bring you some bourbon for us to share.

Kim

I really want this to work out. I love seeing new games come out and I love the innovations we're seeing in the industry. I'm thrilled to see Barry back, and can't wait to see what he can do with you.

My constructive criticism comes from HOW you're going about it, not what's being done. Admittedly, a kickstarter as a way to fund scares me. I'm not opposed to preorders, but I am opposed to plunking down the entire cost of the machine for the chance of eventually getting something. If it funds, but this doesn't pan out, i'm out seven grand.

Everyone has been talking about the small companies and preorders burning people - I've been burnt by kickstarter enough that it's not my preferred method for ANYTHING that expensive. I understand that's the nature of kickstarter, but I'd rather see a 1000$ deposit.

I'm not defending the guys but so what of some synthetic weed?

Still not as bad as booze & only stupid assholes find marijuana evil. Not calling you names BTW just generalizing the ignorant portion of the baby boomer generation that's still alive & harming the world while "fighting the war on drugs".

Don't forget merlot & Brie was the behavior of criminals in the 30's!

A pharma rep does more damage than even a crack dealer. If real pot was legal the synthetics wouldn't exist & there would be ZERO fatalities or OD's unlike Xanax or synthetic weed.

What's my point? I think they should sell weed & pinball machines.

& cookies too

EDIT: For the record I do not smoke marijuana. This is not my own choice, it's the responsible one I'm forced to make. I do hope it's legal when I retire though

I agree with most of what you're saying (I'm a millennial and have a pretty open mind).
Not trying to turn this into a political discussion, but it makes me question the character of someone who would (openly) manufacture and distribute synthetic weed. It's a dubious industry, constantly changing formulas to bypass laws and work through loopholes. That, along with the other criticisms voiced here leave me with little faith in this company.

I like the theme and some of the mechanics they've discussed, and I would love for them to succeed and produce an awesome pin. I really hope I'm proven wrong, but the execution so far has left a lot to be desired.

It's ok. We excpect that some people would not want to throw down the full price of a machine, when they haven't seen it. Completely understandable.

Also, although Kickstarter does not provide guarantees, we will provide industry standard warranties and refunds to those who request them if our project goals are not met on time. FYI, Kickstarter now requires that project creators complete their project or provide recourse (usually in the form of a refund) to backers. See: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2409316,00.asp

Thanks for the heads up! That's at least much more comforting.
I'm glad kickstarter finally changed that, that always seemed like an easy way to get fast cash for providing nothing, I haven't had it happen much, but it's always been a worry with larger funding levels.

You said dubious instead of doobie

I too question the pinball side of VonnieD in this pinball discussion lol

My plan is to hope for the best while sitting on the sidelines

Could we still see the puppet drinking gin?

You are talking about a product that is no longer made and hasn't been for years. In fact, the article you linked to is over three years old and describes what was a completely legitimate and legal industry at the time. Secondly, the product was never intended to be consumed and was not at all a synthetic variation of any illicit substance. Third, my company actually worked with -not against- local law enforcement agencies to come up with ways to discourage misuse and abuse. Even going as far as adding bitterants to the products, to prevent them from being used improperly, and restricting the sale of the products to those most likely to use them improperly (minors). Eventually, we removed all synthetic components from the products. Despite proper labeling and doing it all by the book, I got sick of explaining to people the difference between our legitimate product and other illegitimate ones. Finally, we discontinued it all together to end any confusion and prevent any future improper use.

So if you want to judge me from a past you do not understand, you may do so. But know that you are probably passing judgement incorrectly, as responsibility to properly use any particular product lies with the user, not the manufacturer making it. I try not to pass my judgement upon others too quickly. I know nobody is perfect, so it's best to not cast the first stone.

We are all adults here. I was tending to be on your side until I read this ridiculous bullshit response.

Unless you're John Popadiuk, an unlicensed theme is like an uphill battle with no bullets and both of your legs crippled.

Here's what Vonnie D should have done (from my Pinside/Kickstarter/Pin-building experience)

1) Build a cool whitewood that shoots great and has some cool features.

2) Get a quote for the cost of a pin/geek friendly license (Army of Darkness, Battlestar Galactica, Aliens) Have it ready to go pending down payment.

3) Kickstart the license cost like Farsight (Pinball Arcade) has done, successfully, several times. This would be around 50-60k, HALF of what they're looking for now. (They'd probably have to pay a % on each game too, but that can come out the back end)

4) Have MANY reward tiers, all of which can be taken against the cost of buying the full game down the road. But have nothing higher than a 50% down payment.

5) Make it a $6000 standard body.

6) Don't spend your whole video explaining what pinball is - explain what the GAME is. Non-pinball people don't give a damn and will be on the latest Hipster Skinny Jeans RFID-Blocking Wallet page, not yours.

Once the Kickstarter succeeds and you secure your license, then start taking deposits to fund the game.

I think the topic is officially off into the weeds.

Kim

Edit: My post was pre Ben's Hecks' thoughtful comments.

What a joke - Don't pee on my shoe and tell me it's raining!!!

NOT FOR CONSUMPTION

"Each packet has the brand name, Bombay Breeze, and is decorated with a psychedelic logo featuring a cartoon elephant meditating among abstract-looking coils of smoke and stars."

The fact that you are here to feed us complete and utter bs guarantees many will never buy a pinball from you. Do you honestly believe anyone with a head on their shoulders believes you were making INCENSE?

credibility-934.jpg

Actually for a real pinball machine you're likely to get such a license for a lot less.

I second most of the suggestions from Ben Heck. As others already mentioned: why invent the wheel yourself? Obviously these guys want to design a pinball machine playfield. I can understand that, it's fun, it's creative. But why insist on your own hardware platform? Your own factory? These are beasts on their own to tackle.
Chances of a game like this succeeding are a lot bigger when collaborated with parties that have assembly, hardware and all that other stuff already figured out. So, talk to JJP, talk to Spooky, talk to Multimorphic, talk to Heighway and see how you can help and elevate each other. We all want more pinball, but that doesn't mean we want more pinball factories.

Just out of curiousity: if VonnieD would team up with one of the parties above and get the Gremlins movie license, would that make it more interesting for you?

You can't just compare anyone to Ben Heck and expect the same results lol right? Ben is a tech aficionado!

For example, at the NW pinballshow he printed a full whitewood on a 3d printer and it was playable in hours!

Paging SealClubber to lock this thread for discussion of drug use ala 'playing pinball while high' ...

he also gives great hugs I am told

Yeah, if you're calling something "Gremlins" - it better damn well be Gremlins! LOL Mogwai Multiball! Remember the little Gremlin balls shooting out of Gizmo's back!? The game designs itself!

Unless your original theme is going to be insanely ultra cool (like BBB) ...nostalgic pop-culture stuff will give prospective buyers more confidence. Not only do they KNOW they'll like the theme -but if it's officially licensed, there's some credibility there. Lebowski for example....that generates excitement! Not sure anyone would care if it was a generic bowling theme with Lebowski-ish characters.

wesupchurch you sure have come up with a lot of BS in the last 24 hrs.

1 - Donnie's needed a 2 day leave (He's just worked so hard ) However, he's been on pinside with no response? So he can read while he's resting but he can't type?

2 - You guy's have been busted by cheap marketing which you have yet to explain. Why? if you have over 10K + that came out of your mouth. Why did you use $5 puppets & cheap logo stings for marketing? I'll tell you why your full of BS.

3 - You were then outed by not paying Taxes (This means your either irresponsible with money and couldn't pay them or it was a slip up on your part). I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say it was a slip up. First of all no real capitalist or bank is going to loan you money with your track record and lack of a business plan. Call it what it is. You can say whatever you want and then follow up with an excuse that's easy to do (We in the real world call them non realistic dreamers).

Plus, I would like to call you out. You said "We are selling most of our unused inventory to make room for a production line and to finish our prototype". Can you show us where theses games are posted? I am sure some of us might be buyers of that inventory. Wow that sure would help you.

4 - Now you have an article on manufacturing synthetic drugs and your response "well it was legal at the time".
That would be my excuse along with I was making "INCENSE" to keep my butt out of jail.

5 - You said, I have had several failed businesses in the past. So why is this one any different? FYI: if the other business were money makers, you would have never closed them. I have yet to meet a man or woman say "Yep I was making money so fast, I need to close the business. It was just to profitable.

Smartest business move you made so far. You saved $5.00 that will help with flipper buttons.
Oh by the way here's a puppet you forgot to use.
tumblr_m3zgenZn7S1r3tlbto1_400.gif

personally i would prefer more original themes in pinball. it's kind of sad that people only seem interested in licensed themes these days. say what you will about this launch and the likelihood of it succeeding, but the theme is a creative one and what art we've seen looks pretty cool.

I like it! I don't necessarily agree that non-licensed themes are always bad. Even simple original themes can be cool if implemented with good rules, software and sound.

To add to your Gremlins idea, you can also have a Funhouse-esque mode with a playfield insert clock, where you must shoot balls (food) into a model head of Stripe when the clock is past midnight. When 3 balls are locked....look out! Targets represent cars that are smashed by the swarms of psycho Gremlins.

-If you tilt, the old Chinese man says "You ah not ready. Maybe someday, you will be ready!"
-During multiball, "Hi Ho" is played, sung by the Gremlins themselves.
-During side drain: "Gizmo CACA!!"

Back to the topic, I wish VDP the best of luck in pursuing their game. I'm still cool with a non-licensed Gremlins.

to be fair, i have shuttered a profitable corporation i owned because i didn't want to do it anymore. it was a PC building business that was making money but was too much work and i wasn't passionate about it anymore.

That is one cool Future pin.

Pinfidel once posted a thread about how great everyone on Pinside was. Threads like this one make me wonder :S

Wes/Vonnie: Most of us support your pinball initiative here. Some of us are just old cranky dudes. At the end of the day, if you build it they will come. Talk is cheap; actions are golden.

Don't get me wrong, I like original themes....but money talks. Licenses sell, especially with pre-sales because SOMETHING is known. Nostalgia is strong when it comes to pinball, and people are more likely to spend money on a theme that means something to them than an unknown (from an unknown). If you're a pinball maker and your heart is in an original theme - do a license first, get the $$$, get the experience, then make your original theme once you have a reputation.

Do you think Skit B would have pre-sold 250 of that game if it wasn't Predator?
Do you think anyone would send Dutch money if it wasn't Lebowski?

Jpop has clout as a "pinball guy", so people will give him money for original themes. Vonnie D is an unknown...he's not going to get pre-orders on sketches and promises.

It is what it is.

I just bought their TAF two weeks ago and I did see the warehouse of games. They aren't perfect people no one is. They have gotten further in their pinball design than I have in mine, and by that I mean I know I'm not able to make one. If you don't want to support them then don't, don't see the need for beating them down. Drugs are bad, hell I don't even drink alcohol or use tobacco, but my guess is most of the population has at some point in their life, so be it. If you study history you will recal pharmacist made money selling cocaine, alcohol, and opium at different points In history, when it became illegal they stopped, That seems to be the same here with Wes. I often check Pinside when resting as well...I say let them do their thing and maybe it pans out maybe it doesn't. Not every business succeeds check with Trump or other entrepreneurs who have failed along the way before their successes made them rich.

-Tommy

Guys, please play nice. Constructive criticism is great, but blatently attacking and bashing someone... not so much. Let's try not to run off people who are at least attempting to do something cool with pinball.

On the plus side:
- Gremlins is a good theme. As known as many expensive licensed themes.
- Artwork sketches we saw were not too bad. Going in that direction or style could make a nice pin.

So... Vonnie D., cut your losses, take your time, regroup, build a nice working prototype and bring it to shows. Then a new story may begin. Pinside has a short attention span anyway... things are often quickly forgotten, good or bad!

I hope they make it. It's great for pinball, However, by posting a post and saying we want money, we need your help that is one thing but to make clams that are untrue. Last thing the pinball world needs is another empty promises with money on the line. The ball is in their court. Show something. Anything? When you open your mouth and say 10K plus you have one the line. Show it! that's the problem, they respond but show nothing. Heck, I could be a buyer later down the road. Their is a pinball guy that I can't stand! that is building a pinball, and I am a buyer of 3 units. He's still a ******* but I am a buyer. He has shown something, He didn't fire his mouth off, (which he is good at) with nothing to show. When you ask for a 100K with nothing to show for it. Then expect people to do there homework and find out who you really are.

All I am saying is protect your money: Here is the facts
1 - Taxes issues
2 - Drug issues
3 - Attacks (I call them FACTS) with no real response except full of excuses of why every story that broke has an excuse.
4 - Where is the 10K plus in this project they said they have in it? A few drawing is not 10K $5.00 puppet shows aren't going to cut it. Cheap $22.00 logo stings aren't going to cut it.

If your going to post on here than people have a right to look and see and HOPEfully protect people from scams. Hint the boys over seas saw this with their "WOZ". I bet they wish they would have known what was about to happen or somebody would have warned them. As for as I am concerned "today" this is a scam. It's a few guys with a dream and no money, which is ok because dreams are how we bring good things to life. Sell all you games and follow your dreams. Don't post here with nothing.
Many guys have failed in business before making it big. However, they never put the cart before the horse. That ball is in their court, They posted and have shown nothing.

I can see this, but when the guys says I have opened several businesses and also has tax issues I doubt he fits under your business plan. Plus, once you loss passion for a business that can be a real problem, because any business owner knows that no one will care 1/2 as much as you do 90% of the time. His loss of passion was when the police were called in for "INCENSE" making

I'm not disagreeing with you. I agree on many points. Personally I have been waiting 2 years with money on the line for a Predator, and had I actually paid the $7K for a WOZ as my first pin then I would still be pin-less/broke 2 years later and so frustrated with the whole thing that I probably wouldn't still be in this hobby. I get it. I'm not going into all my personal opinions on this topic. I'm just asking, as a moderator, for people to respect the forum rules and play nice. We've had quite a few pitchfork threads lately and are trying to keep the peace as much as possible.

Yep, let's keep it light. I think the character sketches are great:

e44243bc3865760e12c3f5d43649c188_large.jpgcfb7eee521d8825347ece6432371680e_large.jpg9f89ed9b96da546412097bcefe41cebc_large.jpg