(Topic ID: 215244)

Voltage and magnets

By ballbaron

6 years ago


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  • 19 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by ballbaron
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    #1 6 years ago

    Looking for the pro players with lots of techie experience in transformers and magnetic play. I'm trying to sort out the incredibly difficult issue of why some balls get magnetized and some don't.
    How much variation is there within a specific game machine as far as the electro-magnetic output is concerned, when they are activated during play?
    What is the highest voltage running through these magnets?
    What is the duration of the active pulse?
    Has anyone seen more of an issue with some games and not so much with others?
    In general, how much is the voltage stepped down from 110V to power the game floor or are there several dedicated tansformers for different features of the game's operation?
    Is the operating current AC or DC?
    Participation in answering these queries will be greatly appreciated.

    #2 6 years ago

    Don't forget balls hitting balls. Before electricity we made magnets by banging steel to steel.

    LTG : )

    #3 6 years ago

    Any ball that has ferrous metal as a component can be magnetized to some degree.

    Let's start with what I'm SURE of:

    Operating current is DC in modern games for all coils, including magnets. You can make a magnet/coil with windings of wire using either AC or DC, but DC produces a stronger magnetic field or "flux", because it's a steady state, as opposed to switching between two peak voltages at different polarities. Think of it this way: For a very extremely brief moment, the magnetic field generated in a coil is exactly the same in AC as it is DC. But as the polarity starts to change, the field changes. This isn't an issue with DC, and frankly, it's hard to notice as a human being without tools at 120hz. But we can tell because it's enough to have a stronger effect on a solenoid, or electromagnetic coil. It's why EM games can feel 'mushy' and solid state games feel 'snappy.'

    How much variation these days is largely up to the coder. They pulse the magnets to do different tricks, like throwing the ball or holding it, or like on the new GOTG where it circles around the magnet a little bit. The duration and frequency of the pulses is altered to control the action as well as to ensure the coil itself doesn't overheat.

    Transformers: All games from EM to non-Spike DMD games use transformers with multiple windings built into them to provide multiple voltages. Spike/Spike2 uses a regulated power supply instead of a transformer.

    #4 6 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    Any ball that has ferrous metal as a component can be magnetized to some degree.
    Let's start with what I'm SURE of:
    Operating current is DC in modern games for all coils, including magnets. You can make a magnet/coil with windings of wire using either AC or DC, but DC produces a stronger magnetic field or "flux", because it's a steady state, as opposed to switching between two peak voltages at different polarities. Think of it this way: For a very extremely brief moment, the magnetic field generated in a coil is exactly the same in AC as it is DC. But as the polarity starts to change, the field changes. This isn't an issue with DC, and frankly, it's hard to notice as a human being without tools at 120hz. But we can tell because it's enough to have a stronger effect on a solenoid, or electromagnetic coil. It's why EM games can feel 'mushy' and solid state games feel 'snappy.'
    How much variation these days is largely up to the coder. They pulse the magnets to do different tricks, like throwing the ball or holding it, or like on the new GOTG where it circles around the magnet a little bit. The duration and frequency of the pulses is altered to control the action as well as to ensure the coil itself doesn't overheat.
    Transformers: All games from EM to non-Spike DMD games use transformers with multiple windings built into them to provide multiple voltages. Spike/Spike2 uses a regulated power supply instead of a transformer.

    Thank you for the great explanation and break-down. That helps. Knowing the ferrous metal is a necessity for attractabilty and function in the games, why is it that Carbon and Chrome (both having ferrous characteristics) demonstrate markedly different susceptibilities to magnetic retention or memory?

    #5 6 years ago
    Quoted from ballbaron:

    Thank you for the great explanation and break-down. That helps. Knowing the ferrous metal is a necessity for attractabilty and function in the games, why is it that Carbon and Chrome (both having ferrous characteristics) demonstrate markedly different susceptibilities to magnetic retention or memory?

    From what I could gather with my relatively uneducated brain, there is something specific about the different types of chromium oxides and the way they're physically structured that gives them the propensity to retain a magnetic charge.

    From wikipedia: "Chromium(IV) oxide (CrO2) is a magnetic compound. Its ideal shape anisotropy, which imparts high coercivity and remnant magnetization, made it a compound superior to the γ-Fe2O3. Chromium(IV) oxide is used to manufacture magnetic tape used in high-performance audio tape and standard audio cassettes.[56] "

    Does this relate to pinball, and how it would relate specifically...I have no idea. I don't know how the balls are manufactured.

    #6 6 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    From what I could gather with my relatively uneducated brain, there is something specific about the different types of chromium oxides and the way they're physically structured that gives them the propensity to retain a magnetic charge.
    From wikipedia: "Chromium(IV) oxide (CrO2) is a magnetic compound. Its ideal shape anisotropy, which imparts high coercivity and remnant magnetization, made it a compound superior to the γ-Fe2O3. Chromium(IV) oxide is used to manufacture magnetic tape used in high-performance audio tape and standard audio cassettes.[56] "
    Does this relate to pinball, and how it would relate specifically...I have no idea. I don't know how the balls are manufactured.

    I think these metal oxides are for holding a magnetic code on tape, the same way it is done with the black stripe on a credit card. So yes, in the respect that chrome is involved in both, then it pertains, but we know that. The trick is to know more about how and why. Probably not the best parallel but all the input on here has merit in one way or another.

    #7 6 years ago

    TBH I think you're obsessing a bit much over something that doesn't really need a solution, or explanation. Certain metals retain magnetism more than others, and chrome is one of them. The 'solution' is to use the other balls, or things like plastic inserts in the trough. Cheaper, easier, and just as effective as engineering a different type of 'pinball' or finding out the why if you HAVE to use chromed balls. /shrug

    I just like science, so I'll keep an eye on here if someone with deeper knowledge has something more valuable to offer, but so far doesn't seem like anyone else cares...and I hardly blame them.

    #8 6 years ago

    I think it’s a valid topic and worth investigation. Ball baron wants to sell the best balls possible and be able to say they won’t or will magnetize with certainty. They shouldn’t just randomly magnetize- there’s a reason and I’d be interested if anyone came up with something scientifically. Maybe the government will fund a study?? Lol maybe not. stern?

    #9 6 years ago
    Quoted from Mbecker:

    I think it’s a valid topic and worth investigation. Ball baron wants to sell the best balls possible and be able to say they won’t or will magnetize with certainty. They shouldn’t just randomly magnetize- there’s a reason and I’d be interested if anyone came up with something scientifically. Maybe the government will fund a study?? Lol maybe not. stern?

    If a ball "won't magnetize" then it equally won't be attracted to a magnet, or coil. This kind of makes this type of ball useless in games WITH magnets.

    If you are that concerned just buy a degaussing wand and demagnetise your balls every so often.

    #10 5 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    TBH I think you're obsessing a bit much over something that doesn't really need a solution, or explanation. Certain metals retain magnetism more than others, and chrome is one of them. The 'solution' is to use the other balls, or things like plastic inserts in the trough. Cheaper, easier, and just as effective as engineering a different type of 'pinball' or finding out the why if you HAVE to use chromed balls. /shrug
    I just like science, so I'll keep an eye on here if someone with deeper knowledge has something more valuable to offer, but so far doesn't seem like anyone else cares...and I hardly blame them.

    Frax - As I read your comment I was humming Bobby McFaron's "Don't Worry - Be Happy" Thanks for the low stress message. I'll be working that into my morning meditation.

    #11 5 years ago
    Quoted from Homepin:

    If a ball "won't magnetize" then it equally won't be attracted to a magnet, or coil. This kind of makes this type of ball useless in games WITH magnets.
    If you are that concerned just buy a degaussing wand and demagnetise your balls every so often.

    I thought about both these issues, especially "what ball would be impervious" You're right on both counts and I'm set to interview the cheif engineer at Hoover Precision products to observe the type of Degausser they use after Eddy Current inspection.

    #12 5 years ago

    On a related note: I used to run induction furnaces at a steel mill. When you're running 250-4000 kilowatts through the coil, nearly everything becomes magnetic. So balls of any material becoming slightly magnetized does not surprise me.

    I wonder if you could use any of these magnets to demagnetize balls?
    https://www.amazingmagnets.com/sf-sphere-magnets.aspx

    #13 5 years ago
    Quoted from ballbaron:

    Frax - As I read your comment I was humming Bobby McFaron's "Don't Worry - Be Happy" Thanks for the low stress message. I'll be working that into my morning meditation.

    I'm not sure if this was supposed to be smartassed or not, TBH.

    #14 5 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    I'm not sure if this was supposed to be smartassed or not, TBH.

    I was being purely humorous. I actually was grateful that someone out there was taking the avenue of least resistance and passing along the alternative. I'm taking your advice seriously but still pursuing the possibilities of cracking the code on the magnetism issue. Sorry if you think it was a jab - it was meant to make you laugh.

    #15 5 years ago
    Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

    On a related note: I used to run induction furnaces at a steel mill. When you're running 250-4000 kilowatts through the coil, nearly everything becomes magnetic. So balls of any material becoming slightly magnetized does not surprise me.
    I wonder if you could use any of these magnets to demagnetize balls?
    https://www.amazingmagnets.com/sf-sphere-magnets.aspx

    Here's the thing..when I used magnets like these to check the magnetic memory problem, I got no response at all from carbon balls left on the magnets for days at a time. I concluded that natural magnets and electro magnets effected the balls in different ways. I assume ( and I know what that entails) that it will take an electric degausser to reverse the memory effect because it was and electro-magnet that caused it. The other thing I will find out from the engineers this week, is whether or not the reversal will have a lasting effect or, after each magnetization, the ball becomes more susceptible to that effect and the re-magnetization becomes more rapid with each cycle.

    #16 5 years ago

    All good, man. It's just difficult for me to determine what people mean in text sometimes, and I'm trying to be better about not flying off the handle without asking first.

    #17 5 years ago
    Quoted from ballbaron:

    when I used magnets like these to check the magnetic memory problem, I got no response at all from carbon balls left on the magnets for days at a time. I concluded that natural magnets and electro magnets effected the balls in different ways.

    Leaving a ball on a magnet won't change its magnetic properties much. It's the repeated movement of the magnetic field that rearranges the atoms on the non-magnetic object, eventually magnetizing it.

    Take a look at this experiment: https://www.education.com/science-fair/article/demagnetize/
    Heating your balls in an oven may demagnetize them. I have removed hard drive magnets from their mounting plates using a heat gun. The magnet was extremely weak afterwards.

    #18 5 years ago

    I was wondering if using my demagnitizing "ring" that I use on arcade CRT's would work well. I'm going to have to dig it out and give it a try. Now where did I put it?

    #19 5 years ago
    Quoted from Travish:

    I was wondering if using my demagnitizing "ring" that I use on arcade CRT's would work well. I'm going to have to dig it out and give it a try. Now where did I put it?

    You're like me - I put it away so good, I'll never see it again

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