(Topic ID: 18292)

VID's Guide to Upgrading/Rebuilding Flippers

By vid1900

9 years ago


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Topic index (key posts)

15 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 10 items.

Display key post list sorted by: Post date | Keypost summary | User name

Post #6 Get the right EOS switch Posted by vid1900 (9 years ago)

Post #8 Make System 11 Flippers Feel Tight Like Fliptronic Posted by vid1900 (9 years ago)

Post #88 Replace Old Series Coils With New Parallel Coils Posted by vid1900 (9 years ago)

Post #140 Udate Old Solid State Flippers Into Fliptronic Style Posted by vid1900 (8 years ago)

Post #292 List of games with longer/shorter flipper travel Posted by vid1900 (8 years ago)

Post #294 Rebuilding 1967-1979 Flippers Posted by vid1900 (8 years ago)

Post #390 Coil stop differences between system 11 and Fliptronic Posted by vid1900 (7 years ago)

Post #520 Rebuilding Bally Linear Flippers Posted by vid1900 (7 years ago)


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#1945 3 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Generally, if your coils are still good (and are the correct ones listed in the manual) you reuse them.
They don't wear out.

Even this still worked, but I couldn't replace the brass sleeve without the whole thing disintegrating:20171027_150049 (resized).jpg

I haven't peaked under the covers on its brother, which also had a recalcitrant sleeve:20171027_135942 (resized).jpg

1 month later
#1957 3 years ago
Quoted from AAAV8R:

- Where should I look for the cause of the buzzing noise? What is the best way to get rid of this?

The buzz is vibration. A little is unavoidable, but the less movement you have, the less buzz you will have.

This ties in to another of your questions:

Quoted from AAAV8R:

- There is some play in the coil, both laterally and longitudinally. i.e. I can rotate the coil a little bit, and I can move it a tiny bit lengthwise. Is this an “issue”? Is the solenoid assembly not being locked down tight robbing my flippers of power?

If you watch the flipper coils when you activate them while loose, they rotate - that energy could be going into the flipper plunger instead.

I've not played with a Williams EM, but I assume the setup of the coil brackets will be similar to Gottlieb? The bracket on one end of the coil has oval holes and the other has fixed holes?

I've tried just squeezing the brackets in as I tighten, but I've never had much success getting them tight - especially if they are still mounted on the playfield.

Instead, I loosely screw in the fixed bracket. I then loosely screw in the bracket with the oval holes. I remove the fixed bracket and slide the bracket with the oval holes in a 1/32" or so and tighten it up. I then squeeze the coil and get the fixed bracket in place. I end up with no movement along the plunger axis at all and usually no rotation. Buzz is almost gone and the coil doesn't move when the flipper activates.

#1959 3 years ago
Quoted from membername:

Hi everyone, basic question, do I need low voltage or high voltage EOS switches for Funhouse?

vid1900 is it safe to always assume the type of EOS switch based on where the wires go?

i.e. Wires from EOS to coil = high voltage usually closed EOS whereas wires from EOS to elsewhere = low voltage usually open EOS

1 week later
#1962 3 years ago
Quoted from Pball1001:

Hello i just picked up a pinball magic and need help. The left flipper has always been waek even replaced the coil. But i saw the pics that the eos switch is normally closed and when the flipper is engaged should be open. But on my PM when the flipper is engaged just pushes it close more idk if its normal for this machine or if this would even cause the flipper to be weak. Any help would be great thanks!

Old flippers use the opening of the EOS to take the power winding out of the circuit. These are high voltage switches, directly connected to the coil that are normally closed. They open when the flipper reaches its limit of travel, which switches the coil to only using the hold winding.

Newer style flippers (from around 1992?) use the MPU to control whether the flipper coil is at full power or holding. These are low voltage, normally open switches. The EOS on these closes when the flipper is at the limit of its travel, signalling to the system to decrease the power to the coil/change to the hold winding. The system will also change/decrease if the flipper button is held down but the EOS never closes, preventing the coil from burning if the switch is misaligned, missing, broken, etc.

The Pinball Magic is the latter. The manual lists SW00127, a normally open switch which should only close when the flipper is at the limit of travel. If it's closing early, the flipper will be weak because the system is prematurely cutting the power to the coil.

#1966 3 years ago
Quoted from Pball1001:

Secound picture is the flipper engrized

And how does that compare to the other flipper that works fine?

1 week later
#1979 3 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Other two flippers were fine. No issues.

I'd swap the coils around then and see if the problem moves with the coil or stays put.

If it moves, it's the coil.

if it stays put, it's something else.

If it disappears entirely it was the soldering, mount, alignment of the coil, etc.

#1981 3 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Coming back to it next day, it was nice and strong. Got weak as play went on. Gonna replace coil and replace other parts if deemed necessary. Thanks!

I'd also check the resistance of the coil.

2 weeks later
#1994 3 years ago
Quoted from wxforecaster:

on this game since the coil has the same windings for power and hold (1 ohm) and simply gets halved when you open the EOS switch.

That doesn't sound right.

Quoted from wxforecaster:

SFL-19-400/30-750 are the coils on both flippers. Again, the left flipper does not get hot and has the identical coil.

The model number tells you a bit about these. The primary is 19 gauge, 400 turns while the secondary is 30 gauge, 750 turns.

I can't find an exact match in https://www.flippers.com/coil-resistance.html but a SFL-20-300/30-800-DC is 1.1ohm and 24.6ohm, nowhere near each other. I'd expect the SFL-19-400/30-750 to be very similar on the primary (fatter gauge but more turns=similar resistance) and slightly less on the secondary (same gauge, less turns = less resistance). Also, on consulting the Instruction booklet for Gorgar, it lists the SFL-20-300/30-800-DC coil for flippers.

If you are reading 1 ohm on both the primary and the secondary, something is wrong.

A picture of the flipper that works and the flipper that doesn't might assist in fault finding.

#1996 3 years ago
Quoted from wxforecaster:

You're absolutely that didn't sound right. I needed to open the EOS switch to get proper measurement across each lug. For the left flipper, I get 1.2 ohms to the center and 24.0 ohms to the left. Perfect. On the new right coil, I get 1.0 ohms center and OPEN to the left (was something stupid like 30 mega ohms). I think we found the problem. Hard to believe it's a bad coil at the factory as I haven't seen this before.
A SFL-19-400/30-750 is used in other Williams games of that era and is a perfect, slightly snappier substitute for the SFL-20-300/30-800. Pretty much identical resistance.
Owner has ordered a few spare coils. Will replace (again) and hopefully put this issue to bed.

If you're getting 1 ohm across a closed EOS, it needs cleaning, alignment or replacement. It should read as a dead short (or very close to).

#1999 3 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

It might be averaging out with the coil resistance. Can't reliably test eos resistance while it's attached to the coil

True, my bad. I do check them before I attach a new coil so I wasn't thinking how it'd work in situ.

1 month later
#2016 3 years ago

If they separate too far they're opening too early and you lose power. I'm guessing if they separate too little you'll get more arcing and therefore more pitting of the contacts. 1/8" is a compromise between the two.

3 weeks later
#2032 3 years ago
Quoted from ryan1234:

Vid-
We could really use a Alvin G. flipper rebuild section!!!!!

Quoted from vid1900:

Next time I work on an Ali G, I'll shoot some pics.

Did you end up making an Alvin G & Co guide? I have one that I will need to rebuild so with some guidance on the best parts to make replacements with, I could take some pictures?

1 month later
#2052 3 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

4. Make the contacts really close but not *that* close

How close? Adjust them until the slingshot machine guns, then back it off a bit?

3 months later
#2141 3 years ago
Quoted from arcademojo:

Question about flipper coil stop sizes vs flipper travel and use for right games.
Looking at PBL site shows 4 different coil stops.
Looking for info on what stop is what size and amount of flipper travel.
#A-8143 (Stop size is ??) = EM games
#A-10821 (Stop size is ??) = Laser Cue, Space Shuttle (some machines, but not all), Sorcerer, Comet, High Speed, Grand Lizard, Road Kings, Pinbot, Millionaire, F-14 Tomcat, Fire!, Fire! Champagne Edition, Big Guns, Space Station
#A-12111 (stop size is ??) = Used on Williams/Bally games from 02/1988 to 04/1993.
#A-12390 (stop size is ??) = Used on all Williams/Bally games from 08/1993 to 06/1999.
I'm assuming A-12390 has the longest stop so gives it the shortest flipper travel. What is the different sizes of A-12111 and A-10821?
I am upgrading several older Williams system 4 to 7 games.
Ex: Black Knight you would use stop #???? to keep original flipper travel.

PBR lists heights for the different stops on the detailed breakdowns of the flipper rebuild kits. eg. http://www.pbresource.com/KT-WFLIP05.html

A10821 protrudes 0.33" into sleeve
A12111 protrudes 0.37" into sleeve
A12390 protrudes 0.42" into sleeve

There's some other notes about flipper mechs around that era: http://www.pbresource.com/rebuildkit.html#baseplate

#2144 3 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Having investigated this recently, either I'm measuring incorrectly or these measurements are completely wrong. I tried every measurement I could think of and none matched up.

I just went and got some calipers out and I concur. Those measurements don't make sense as written. From the back of the bracket to the tip of the coil they do line up though. eg.
A-10821:
IMG_20180927_103141 (resized).jpg
A-12390:
IMG_20180927_103226 (resized).jpg

Unfortunately I don't have an A-12111 on hand.

#2145 3 years ago
Quoted from arcademojo:

PBR
A10821 protrudes 0.33" into sleeve
A12111 protrudes 0.37" into sleeve
A12390 protrudes 0.42" into sleeve

Marco
A-8143 Core height from bracket face is ? mm or ???
A10821 Core height from bracket face is 6 mm or 0.236”
A12111 Core height from bracket face is 7 mm or 0.275”
A12390 Core height from bracket face is 8 mm or 0.314”

The A-10821 I have (from PBR) is closer to .250" or 6.35mm. Being a 1/4" makes more sense to me as these things were made to an imperial measure, not metric.
The A-12390 I have is closer to .330" or 8.5mm, also shipped from PBR. I don't work with imperial stuff enough to know if .330" in close to a standard size? 21/64"?
I do not have a A-12111 here to measure unfortunately.

The bracket on the short stop is ~0.08" thick,the tall stop is marginally thicker ~0.09".

0.25 (short stop) + 0.08 (thinner bracket) = 0.33
0.33 (long stop) + 0.09 (thicker bracket) = 0.42

Those numbers line up with PBRs, but from the back of the bracket to the stop, not protrusion into sleeve.

#2146 3 years ago

double post

#2150 3 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

For some reason I couldn't get those to work out for me, but I don't trust them anyway. No guarantee they'll always use the same method of attaching the cores.

It's very awkward TBH, and probably not that accurate as you need to get one side of the caliper completely off the riveted butt and the other on the coil stop, so it's not measuring in a direct line between two flat surfaces and any change in the bracket will change the measurement. Better than measuring directly between the coil stop face and the riveted butt though I guess and it probably is good enough to distinguish between unlabelled parts though.

Holding something flat against the coil stop and measuring between that and the bracket seems like a much more sensible idea, less prone to error, and should correlate to measuring the stop before it's fixed to the bracket, etc, etc.

3 weeks later
#2187 3 years ago
Quoted from Fezmid:

Success.....!!!! I think...
It seems like everything is working -- the flipper bat is in the right position, it has good power, I can hit all of the shots. Things seem good. The only thing I noticed is that I can pull up and down on the flipper bat more than I can on the other flipper. There's always the gap under both of them from the credit card at least. I went under the playfield and played around with the mech, and found out that there's more give there - but I can't figure out a way to stop that as there's no screws to tighten or anything. I went back to my rebuild kit vs. the one I took out, and overall there's just more play there... Am I missing something obvious?
I made my mission of getting it working before my coworkers come over on Wednesday, so that's good -- and when I play, I can't feel any difference from before -- but I can't help but feel like I did something wrong (mostly because I've never done anything like this before so I had to have screwed SOMETHING up, right?)

Different size coil stops? Older shorter stops let the plunger go into the sleeve further than later stops which leads to more flipper travel.

e.g. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-upgradingrebuilding-flippers/page/43#post-4608260 has a picture of a long stop vs a short stop.

#2189 3 years ago
Quoted from Fezmid:

No, it's the up/down motion that has play (pulling the flipper up from the playfield).

Ah, ok. Any difference in the plastic bushing? Otherwise I'd just say loosen the crank on the loose one and slide it closer to the playfield.

#2192 2 years ago

[edit: wrong thread]

2 months later
#2226 2 years ago
Quoted from packie1:

VID
I am sure this has been answered before and I think I may have asked before as well, But I need to know on the EOS switch the middle lug on the coil, does that wire go to the short blade or the long blade? I have seen it both ways and was not sure if there is a right or wrong way and why. The game I am doing at present has three flippers and two are one way and the third is not. Wanted to stay consistent.
Mike

It doesn't matter. I usually go whichever way leads to the wires sitting nicer with less twists/crossing, etc.

4 months later
#2324 2 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Or something else. Haha

Different return springs?

2 years later
#2670 87 days ago

vid1900 I love these guides.

Have I missed it? Was there ever a guide to rebuilding Alvin G flipper mechs? It's tricky to source some parts which has always stumped me.

pasted_image (resized).png pasted_image (resized).png

Flipper shaft Bushign: https://www.pinballspareparts.com.au/fsb-001.html
Crank: https://www.pinballspareparts.com.au/agflipper.html
Crank: https://www.pinballspareparts.com.au/agflipper1.html
Bats: https://www.pinballspareparts.com.au/bulk-items/ag-flipperbaty.html

But I've never found a replacement for the bushing between the crank and the link.

Just give up and replace all of it with a williams mech?

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