(Topic ID: 18292)

VID's Guide to Upgrading/Rebuilding Flippers

By vid1900

12 years ago


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There are 2,971 posts in this topic. You are on page 59 of 60.
#2901 77 days ago
Quoted from sllerts:

So I did this and the flipper dropped as soon as I killed the power after releasing the flipper button. That means my issue is electrical. Coil?

Well now I’ve captured it on video. The little gold contact on the EOS switch is hanging off a bit but I don’t think that’s the problem (though I will have to replace it). Listen to the coil after I hold for a few seconds then release. The right flipper does not do this. Sounds definitely like the problem is the coil. Am I correct?

https://1drv.ms/v/s!AgXcDHkOA1699lFKNHaI3EV-8RcU?e=Ysqn7y

#2902 76 days ago
Quoted from sllerts:

So I did this and the flipper dropped as soon as I killed the power after releasing the flipper button. That means my issue is electrical. Coil?

Probably not the coil.

What game?

#2903 76 days ago
Quoted from sllerts:

Well now I’ve captured it on video. The little gold contact on the EOS switch is hanging off a bit but I don’t think that’s the problem (though I will have to replace it). Listen to the coil after I hold for a few seconds then release. The right flipper does not do this. Sounds definitely like the problem is the coil. Am I correct?
https://1drv.ms/v/s!AgXcDHkOA1699lFKNHaI3EV-8RcU?e=Ysqn7y

Screenshot 2024-05-07 at 06-25-25 IMG_2186.MOV - OneDrive (resized).pngScreenshot 2024-05-07 at 06-25-25 IMG_2186.MOV - OneDrive (resized).png

#2904 76 days ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Probably not the coil.
What game?

AfM. I should also note that it has a Rottendog power driver board replacement if you're thinking this may be power component related.

#2905 76 days ago

Brush out the dust around the flipper button optos, also check that the plastic interrupter blade is still intact and not hanging by a thread

#2906 76 days ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Brush out the dust around the flipper button optos, also check that the plastic interrupter blade is still intact and not hanging by a thread

Flipper optos look fine. No issues with dust (used compressed air) and the interruptor blade is fine. If I tap the flipper button, the bat comes right back down. It's only when the button is held for about 5 or more seconds that it "sticks" when released and makes that sound in the video.

#2907 76 days ago

Swap your left and right flipper boards and see if the problem follows the board

#2908 76 days ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Swap your left and right flipper boards and see if the problem follows the board

I'm curious why you don't think it's the coil. The buttons are either on or off but the issue only really happens when the button is held for a period of time. Unless you're saying there's a cap or something on the flipper board that is keeping the coil charged.

#2909 76 days ago
Quoted from sllerts:

I'm curious why you don't think it's the coil.

The coil would not store any energy to hold the flipper up.

Magnetized coil stop could, melted coil/sleeve could, but neither would drop when it lost power

Flaky opto board might do it though

#2910 76 days ago

Hold transistor?

I've had them go bad on fliptronics board and act similarly.

#2911 76 days ago
Quoted from Black_Knight:

Hold transistor?
I've had them go bad on fliptronics board and act similarly.

It's a Rottendog power driver board. AfM doesn't have a separate fliptronics board.

#2912 76 days ago
Quoted from vid1900:

The coil would not store any energy to hold the flipper up.
Magnetized coil stop could, melted coil/sleeve could, but neither would drop when it lost power
Flaky opto board might do it though

So I swapped the boards (had to connect them both to make either side work; power or ground must be daisy chained), and I think the issue followed the opto board to the right flipper. I don't see any physical damage or anything with the board. So are you saying a flaky opto switch could be the cause? I'm not sure how that would cause this issue. But if it is the cause, can I get away with swapping the spare opto switch for the non-existent upper flipper or should I just replace the board?

#2913 76 days ago
Quoted from sllerts:

It's a Rottendog power driver board. AfM doesn't have a separate fliptronics board.

Sounds like it’s the Opto, but there is a hold transistor on the driver board.

#2914 76 days ago
Quoted from sllerts:

So are you saying a flaky opto switch could be the cause? I'm not sure how that would cause this issue. But if it is the cause, can I get away with swapping the spare opto switch for the non-existent upper flipper or should I just replace the board?

Sometimes the "spare opto" switch is used for the 'video game' part of the game, so if the problem followed the board from left to right, then just replace the bad opto (or if you don't like to solder, a whole new board is only a couple of bucks more than the opto itself)

#2915 76 days ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Sometimes the "spare opto" switch is used for the 'video game' part of the game, so if the problem followed the board from left to right, then just replace the bad opto (or if you don't like to solder, a whole new board is only a couple of bucks more than the opto itself)

Strangely, I replaced the EOS switch and kept the opto boards swapped, and it appears like neither flipper is sticking now! No clue why that might be, but I'm going to order a couple of replacement opto boards just in case. I could do the opto switch soldering if I had to, but it can't hurt to have spare boards.

Thanks for all the help!

1 week later
#2916 63 days ago

Had a flapping flipper on Gorgar rebuild with new rebuild kit. Changed solenoid as Vid suggested and that cured it.

Thanks to all for input. Now I'm having an issue with it not going back to its place after release each time.

I also worked on the right one too and the right flipper creeps up. Both were gapped with the tool. See video below for each. Planning to order new cabinet flipper leaf switches for both sides but looking for any other ideas before going that route. Of note also, both EOS switches have some residue now from sparking from previous flapping on left and right one still sparks when flipping and not returning down.

Thanks in advance.

#2917 63 days ago

If the right one is pulling in all the way you need to tighten the pawl easy past what you think is safe. It's too loose... My theory is that the new flipper bats diameter on the shaft is slightly smaller than original making the tightness more critical.

#2918 63 days ago

can you post clear pics of the assemblies?

off topic, but i have the same loud humming noise on my Gorgar but not on my Black Knight.
both boards have had the electrolytic caps changed.

#2919 62 days ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

can you post clear pics of the assemblies?
off topic, but i have the same loud humming noise on my Gorgar but not on my Black Knight.
both boards have had the electrolytic caps changed.

Here are pictures of the assemblies. Haven't changed the right solenoid yet until I solve this issue first. Of note, I overtightened the fin shank on right bushing during rebuild and the screw snapped so that's been replaced and the bushings are tight (not too tight!). I also tried buying another new right flipper bat (both bats are new to begin with) to see if it was from overtightened pawl but it has same issue.

And off topic, that is my aerator for my septic system humming, not Gorgar.
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#2920 62 days ago
Quoted from slochar:

If the right one is pulling in all the way you need to tighten the pawl easy past what you think is safe. It's too loose... My theory is that the new flipper bats diameter on the shaft is slightly smaller than original making the tightness more critical.

I will try and use a different Allen wrench with more leverage to tighten it. I've also posted pictures and more details above. Thanks to all!

#2921 62 days ago

just an observation, that EOS switch is not correct, it is a normal switch with gold plated contacts not designed to handle the higher current.

the contacts on the switches must be tungsten tipped.

it looks like the flipper bush is too long and the plunger is on an angle when it should be straight, causing the plunger to catch.

the flipper bat shaft should be protruding even a little through the crank, and a longer flipper bush will cause this.

did you buy a kit or parts individually?

#2922 62 days ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

just an observation, that EOS switch is not correct, it is a normal switch with gold plated contacts not designed to handle the higher current.
the contacts on the switches must be tungsten tipped.
it looks like the flipper bush is too long and the plunger is on an angle when it should be straight, causing the plunger to catch.
the flipper bat shaft should be protruding even a little through the crank, and a longer flipper bush will cause this.
did you buy a kit or parts individually?

Thanks a lot for the insight.

Someone mentioned the tungsten vs gold on my original post a page back but when I contacted PBL about it they said it was not gold when I sent them the image of what I installed. I bought the rebuild kit from PBL, not individual items.

Here is what I bought:

https://www.pinballlife.com/williams-flipper-rebuild-kit-041969-to-121979.html

https://www.pinballlife.com/williams-logo-flipper-bat-and-shaft-assembly-yellow.html

#2923 62 days ago

Hi there. I recently bought an original AFM and MB from an operator and have purchased flipper kits for both. Dumb question: both games have the EOS switches disconnected (presumably by the operator). Any idea why someone would do that? Just curious.

#2924 62 days ago
Quoted from Thesire:

Thanks a lot for the insight.
Someone mentioned the tungsten vs gold on my original post a page back but when I contacted PBL about it they said it was not gold when I sent them the image of what I installed. I bought the rebuild kit from PBL, not individual items.
Here is what I bought:
https://www.pinballlife.com/williams-flipper-rebuild-kit-041969-to-121979.html
https://www.pinballlife.com/williams-logo-flipper-bat-and-shaft-assembly-yellow.html

looked at the kit, unfortunately items not listed with part numbers, and they do state "believed to have been used........". They are wrong or you were supplied the wrong parts.

if they claim it's not gold plated then what is it? only other option is brass, possibly silver?
this is the correct EOS switch and it states it has tungsten tipped contacts: https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/03-7811

they should give you a refund with the pictures you have, clearly showing the supplied kit is incorrect.

did you notice the flipper bushing is too tall and causing the plunger to bind? You should feel it actuating by hand.
and visually it looks wrong.

for my Gorgar I chose to go the later style flipper assemblies:
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/C-8231-L https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/A-15848-L
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/C-8231-R https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/A-15848-R
the correct flipper bush is: https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/03-7568
and the return spring: https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/10-364

it can be remedied with the correct flipper bushes and EOS switches.

#2925 62 days ago
Quoted from Arsenal129:

Hi there. I recently bought an original AFM and MB from an operator and have purchased flipper kits for both. Dumb question: both games have the EOS switches disconnected (presumably by the operator). Any idea why someone would do that? Just curious.

my understanding is on those WPC pins the EOS switch is normally open and the crank closes the switch which tells the cpu to reduce the voltage from high to low.
IMO they should be connected.

-1
#2926 61 days ago

Wpc pins don't really need the eos. If it's flaky it can cause increased fade and I've never seen a case where it actually helps anything.

#2927 61 days ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

looked at the kit, unfortunately items not listed with part numbers, and they do state "believed to have been used........". They are wrong or you were supplied the wrong parts.
if they claim it's not gold plated then what is it? only other option is brass, possibly silver?
this is the correct EOS switch and it states it has tungsten tipped contacts: https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/03-7811
they should give you a refund with the pictures you have, clearly showing the supplied kit is incorrect.
did you notice the flipper bushing is too tall and causing the plunger to bind? You should feel it actuating by hand.
and visually it looks wrong.
for my Gorgar I chose to go the later style flipper assemblies:
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/C-8231-L https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/A-15848-L
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/C-8231-R https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/A-15848-R
the correct flipper bush is: https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/03-7568
and the return spring: https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/10-364
it can be remedied with the correct flipper bushes and EOS switches.

I really appreciate all the explanation including links. I will order the leaf switches and bushings from Marco, install those and if it works I will be contacting PBL for a refund. Some day I may go for the newer rebuild but at this point I just want to play my game. Thanks so much!

#2928 59 days ago

After fixing the weak black knight flipper issue I've also changed the plunger and links.

I noticed today when the ball comes down from the upper playfield and hits the held up flipper the flipper flutters stopping you catching the ball.
I'm sure before you could hold it up and the ball would hit the flipper and settle for a trap.

It's as if it's not holding strong enough.
The EOS is quite tightly gapped.

I have compared the left and right by dropping a ball to the tip of the flipper with the flippers held up, the left one does it only very slightly but the right is a lot worse and causes the ball to fly up the playfield.

What causes this?

#2929 59 days ago
Quoted from DaveTheTrain:

After fixing the weak black knight flipper issue I've also changed the plunger and links.
I noticed today when the ball comes down from the upper playfield and hits the held up flipper the flipper flutters stopping you catching the ball.
I'm sure before you could hold it up and the ball would hit the flipper and settle for a trap.
It's as if it's not holding strong enough.
The EOS is quite tightly gapped.
I have compared the left and right by dropping a ball to the tip of the flipper with the flippers held up, the left one does it only very slightly but the right is a lot worse and causes the ball to fly up the playfield.
What causes this?

when the plunger is manually pushed in can you hear/feel it hit the coil stop?

is the plunger link hitting the coil sleeve?

ideal gap for EOS is 1/8 or 3mm.

have you checked voltage at the coils?

#2930 59 days ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

when the plunger is manually pushed in can you hear/feel it hit the coil stop?
is the plunger link hitting the coil sleeve?
ideal gap for EOS is 1/8 or 3mm.
have you checked voltage at the coils?

They're hitting the stops, but still having the issue. They weren't before when I first installed the new plungers, I had the wrong ones with the link not shaped correctly so the spring wouldn't allow the plunger to go all the way in. I used a Dremel to shape the plastic link part like the old ones.

From what I understand the coil stop grips the plunger with the magnetism? If the plunger isn't hitting it it can't hold it as firmly? I might have made this up.

#2931 58 days ago
Quoted from DaveTheTrain:

They're hitting the stops, but still having the issue. They weren't before when I first installed the new plungers, I had the wrong ones with the link not shaped correctly so the spring wouldn't allow the plunger to go all the way in. I used a Dremel to shape the plastic link part like the old ones.
From what I understand the coil stop grips the plunger with the magnetism? If the plunger isn't hitting it it can't hold it as firmly? I might have made this up.

the coil stop stops the plunger and ideally has nothing to do with magnetism or the plunger would be attracted to the coil stop, which can happen causing the flipper to stay up.

maybe start a new thread in Tech Early Solid State?

can you post some clear pics of the assemblies, with the bats at rest and with you manually holding the bat upright/in hold position?

#2932 56 days ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

the coil stop stops the plunger and ideally has nothing to do with magnetism or the plunger would be attracted to the coil stop, which can happen causing the flipper to stay up.
maybe start a new thread in Tech Early Solid State?
can you post some clear pics of the assemblies, with the bats at rest and with you manually holding the bat upright/in hold position?

I'm terribly particular about how my games play. For all I know it did the little flutter before I changed the plunger but as I was testing the new plunger I probably noticed it and made an issue of it.

I'll get pics when I'm next at the game.

I'm considering changing the baseplates. The current ones have the coil stop studs attached with a nut. I can't replace them without replacing the entire baseplate (unless I can find the coil stop studs in UK ).

Are the WPC baseplates the same dimensions as the sys7 ones? I am tempted to change to those so the coil stops can easily be swapped.

#2933 56 days ago
Quoted from DaveTheTrain:

For all I know it did the little flutter before I changed the plunger but as I was testing the new plunger I probably noticed it and made an issue of it.

Flutter is sometimes a loose "hold" winding wire, so check the fine wires on the tabs of the coil and make sure they are soldered securely

Not holding the flipper up when hit by an incoming ball can also sometimes be that the coil stop and plunger don't "mate" exactly flat. So a worn coil stop might have worn down at an angle, and a new plunger is factory flat.

So a worn coil stop may have to be "dressed" with a file, to make it flat so it mates properly with a new plunger.

Hope that makes sense....

#2934 56 days ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Flutter is sometimes a loose "hold" winding wire, so check the fine wires on the tabs of the coil and make sure they are soldered securely
Not holding the flipper up when hit by an incoming ball can also sometimes be that the coil stop and plunger don't "mate" exactly flat. So a worn coil stop might have worn down at an angle, and a new plunger is factory flat.
So a worn coil stop may have to be "dressed" with a file, to make it flat so it mates properly with a new plunger.
Hope that makes sense....

That makes a lot of sense, thank you.
I had removed the coil stop stud, so it's likely when I put it back it was turned in a different orientation to how it was originally.

I have found a spare wpc flipper baseplate so if it fits I will try that with a new coil stop.

#2935 51 days ago
Quoted from sllerts:

Strangely, I replaced the EOS switch and kept the opto boards swapped, and it appears like neither flipper is sticking now! No clue why that might be, but I'm going to order a couple of replacement opto boards just in case. I could do the opto switch soldering if I had to, but it can't hurt to have spare boards.
Thanks for all the help!

Well I probably spoke too soon. The sticky flipper came back so I purchased two new opto boards from Marco. However I think both are bad! One keeps the flipper up even if the button isn’t pressed (follows the board) and the other sticks even worse after holding and releasing the button! I thought the lit button mod on this machine I purchased could have affected the optos, but unplugging them doesn’t fix the problem. I also noticed that the resistor values are different on the new boards (470 on the new vs. 680 though that could be because a different switch is used on the new board). Right now I’m back to the original boards which are working better than the replacements and I have an email in to Marco. Very strange.

1 week later
#2936 41 days ago

Just picked up a Williams Jungle Lord. Want to do a 4 flipper rebuild, but I would like to upgrade the flippers in the process. Just need to know what I need to buy from Pinball Life. Do I need buy full flipper assemblies with base plates or just rebuild with new style springs?

20240609_194744 (resized).jpg20240609_194744 (resized).jpg
#2937 41 days ago
Quoted from epeabs:

Just picked up a Williams Jungle Lord. Want to do a 4 flipper rebuild, but I would like to upgrade the flippers in the process. Just need to know what I need to buy from Pinball Life. Do I need buy full flipper assemblies with base plates or just rebuild with new style springs?
[quoted image]

Are those coil stops bent from the base, or do they unscrew?

Can't tell from the pic.

#2938 41 days ago

those coil stops are part of base plate.

then as i'm sure you're aware there are the base plates that have an extension for the coil stop to screw to.

#2939 41 days ago
Quoted from epeabs:

Just picked up a Williams Jungle Lord. Want to do a 4 flipper rebuild, but I would like to upgrade the flippers in the process. Just need to know what I need to buy from Pinball Life. Do I need buy full flipper assemblies with base plates or just rebuild with new style springs?
[quoted image]

not prying, but what's your budget?

as just mentioned, those base plates have a fixed coil stop.
you could upgrade to a base plate with a removable coil stop?
but in my Black Knight i found room was a consideration to take in, as the latter base plates are longer.

maybe strip what you have, measure resistances of coil windings and if all good possibly a kit with the spring that joins to the crank bracket?
new Williams EOS switches and spark/noise suppressing caps.

the pic is of 4 assemblies for my Black Knight with original coils and new coil wrappers, new base plates and what is already mentioned.
IMG_2171 (resized).JPGIMG_2171 (resized).JPG

not meaning to hijack Vids thread, just posting options.

#2940 40 days ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Are those coil stops bent from the base, or do they unscrew?
Can't tell from the pic.

Sorry for the crappy photo. Definitely bent coil stops.

Quoted from Rikoshay:

not prying, but what's your budget?
as just mentioned, those base plates have a fixed coil stop.
you could upgrade to a base plate with a removable coil stop?
but in my Black Knight i found room was a consideration to take in, as the latter base plates are longer.
maybe strip what you have, measure resistances of coil windings and if all good possibly a kit with the spring that joins to the crank bracket?
new Williams EOS switches and spark/noise suppressing caps.
the pic is of 4 assemblies for my Black Knight with original coils and new coil wrappers, new base plates and what is already mentioned.
[quoted image]
not meaning to hijack Vids thread, just posting options.

I prefer not to spend for the full flipper assemblies, and just rebuild. I do have several "newer" style flipper assemblies with removable stops, that need to be rebuilt. It does look like there is enough space in the upper playfield to convert. Would just need to piece a rebuild kit with correct EOS switches.

20240612_070602 (resized).jpg20240612_070602 (resized).jpg20240612_070657 (resized).jpg20240612_070657 (resized).jpg
#2941 40 days ago
Quoted from epeabs:

Definitely bent coil stops.

If you are handy, you can cut off the existing coil stop tabs, then drill and tap new holes for a conventional coil stop:

https://michiganpinball.com/flipperupgrade/index.htm

flip4 (resized).jpgflip4 (resized).jpg
#2942 40 days ago
Quoted from vid1900:

If you are handy, you can cut off the existing coil stop tabs, then drill and tap new holes for a conventional coil stop:
https://michiganpinball.com/flipperupgrade/index.htm[quoted image]

I'm glad I'm not the only one to look at the assembly and consider that very same process as an alternative.
Thank you Vid for the link.

What correct EOS switches are needed (and capacitors)?

#2943 40 days ago
Quoted from epeabs:

I'm glad I'm not the only one to look at the assembly and consider that very same process as an alternative.
Thank you Vid for the link.
What correct EOS switches are needed (and capacitors)?

https://www.pinballlife.com/williamsbally-flipper-coil-stop-a-12111.html

https://www.pinballlife.com/22uf-250v-axial-capacitor.html

https://www.pinballlife.com/williamsbally-end-of-stroke-switch-normally-closed.html

#2944 40 days ago
Quoted from epeabs:

Do I need buy full flipper assemblies with base plates or just rebuild with new style springs?

Upgraded my System 4 Pokerino to full new WPC-style mechs. Was a lot of work & expense, and I gotta say, not really worth it. Flippers were already pretty good when I bought it, likely recently rebuilt. So I wasn't going from total trash to brand new, just from one style to another.

I assumed WPC mechs would give extra snap to the long forehand shots on that huge super-wide playfield. Didn't really change much. If you had done it and not told me, I'm not sure I would've noticed.

TLDR: my advice is just rebuild what you have.

#2945 40 days ago

Thank you Vid. It probably would've taken me a bit to track down everything correctly.

Quoted from yancy:

Upgraded my System 4 Pokerino to full new WPC-style mechs. Was a lot of work & expense, and I gotta say, not really worth it. Flippers were already pretty good when I bought it, likely recently rebuilt. So I wasn't going from total trash to brand new, just from one style to another.
I assumed WPC mechs would give extra snap to the long forehand shots on that huge super-wide playfield. Didn't really change much. If you had done it and not told me, I'm not sure I would've noticed.
TLDR: my advice is just rebuild what you have.

Appreciate the honest heads up. Hate to waste time and expense. I think at this point I will use my existing assemblies, modify them to accommodate removal coil stops, and rebuild with new components. Thank you.

#2946 40 days ago

I'm going to do the coil stop modification. So, if buying these parts separately, it probably doesn't make sense to buy full rebuild kits for each flipper, since it would be buying items not being used. What plunger and crank would I then purchase? And then need to replace bushings as well. Sorry for all the questions. I typically buy a rebuilt kit for each.

#2947 37 days ago
Quoted from epeabs:

I'm going to do the coil stop modification. So, if buying these parts separately, it probably doesn't make sense to buy full rebuild kits for each flipper, since it would be buying items not being used. What plunger and crank would I then purchase? And then need to replace bushings as well. Sorry for all the questions. I typically buy a rebuilt kit for each.

Check that buying all the parts separately is not more than just buying the full kits with baseplates.

You want the standard cranks, with the Spring Bracket (make a spring mount from the left over metal you saw off the base and screw it to the EOS switch stack).

https://www.pinballlife.com/williamsbally-left-flipper-plunger-and-crank-assembly.html

These bushings are for all the Williams after 1979:

https://www.pinballlife.com/williamsbally-nylon-flipper-bushing.html

1 week later
#2948 26 days ago

Stupid question but:

I read from Vid1900's tutorial that the EOC switch gap is supposed to be 1/8" or 3.2mm when fully plunged/open.

This is between the actual parts where they make contact correct? (On the round tungsten contacts?)

Want to make sure I get it right before I put the flipper back in. much easier to do it on the bench.

#2949 26 days ago
Quoted from cidtrip:

Stupid question but:
I read from Vid1900's tutorial that the EOC switch gap is supposed to be 1/8" or 3.2mm when fully plunged/open.
This is between the actual parts where they make contact correct? (On the round tungsten contacts?)
Want to make sure I get it right before I put the flipper back in. much easier to do it on the bench.

Yes, at the contacts. You can preset the gap, but final adjustment should occur once installed.

#2950 26 days ago

Great thanks.

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