(Topic ID: 18292)

VID's Guide to Upgrading/Rebuilding Flippers

By vid1900

11 years ago


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15 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 10 items. (Show topic index)

There are 2,884 posts in this topic. You are on page 54 of 58.
#2651 2 years ago

I don't know of any performance benefits from parallel coils. The EOS switch last longer because of a spark arrestor cap, so this would enhance performance between service calls. But that's about it, no magic here. Return spring design will make more of a difference then replacement of the coil.

#2652 2 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

I don't know of any performance benefits from parallel coils. The EOS switch last longer because of a spark arrestor cap, so this would enhance performance between service calls. But that's about it, no magic here. Return spring design will make more of a difference then replacement of the coil.

So, Williams' marketing hype. I suppose the claim would be that since both coils are in circuit for hold circuit, you're heating up the primary coil too, so that it's not going to be as cool for the next power stroke. Hence the marketing line of "more zip for the flip" I suppose.

These aren't on location so any EOS replacements (never needed one at this point after a flipper rebuild's done....) are done here by me anyway.

Curiosity satisfied.

1 week later
#2653 2 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Great post. I just had the same issue on a rebuild I did with WPC flippers. Wasn’t the suppliers fault, I grabbed one from my bin that was too short, but same issue.

Would this ever cause a flipper to stick?

#2654 2 years ago
Quoted from zhu808:

Would this ever cause a flipper to stick?

Bad plungers stick.

Swollen coils stick.

Mushroomed plunger ends and worn coil stops stick.

#2655 2 years ago

Wrong size flipper bushings will stick from misalignment

#2656 2 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Wrong size flipper bushings will stick from misalignment

How about old, tarnished EOS switches? I operated the mechanism by hand and it's moving perfectly.

#2657 2 years ago
Quoted from zhu808:

How about old, tarnished EOS switches? I operated the mechanism by hand and it's moving perfectly.

Easy enough to loosen and move it out of the way to test the theory.

DONT hold the flipper button, just flip and see if she sticks.

#2658 2 years ago

Hello All:
Finishing a Williams 1950 "Lucky Inning". The flippers are controlled as one with a flat bar connecting both flippers and only one coil to draw the assembly in. Question I have is that the flippers work fine but there is no "umph" to them. They barely push the ball up the playfield. The travel distance for the flippers is near nothing. Any way to improve this? I have replaced all the worn parts. The only thing left would be the coil. I have adjusted the switch which powers the coil but with no real difference.
Suggestions?
Mike

PXL_20210430_154911224 (resized).jpgPXL_20210430_154911224 (resized).jpgPXL_20210430_154915351 (resized).jpgPXL_20210430_154915351 (resized).jpgPXL_20210430_154916815 (resized).jpgPXL_20210430_154916815 (resized).jpgPXL_20210430_154919133 (resized).jpgPXL_20210430_154919133 (resized).jpg
#2659 2 years ago

It looks like the coil plunger and the link to the other flipper are mixed up.
Also, you are missing the phenolic link between the coil plunger and flipper bellcrank.

#2660 2 years ago

Are you sure it's the right coil? That wrapping doesn't look anything like what's on my '48 williams.

#2661 2 years ago
Quoted from electricsquirrel:

It looks like the coil plunger and the link to the other flipper are mixed up.
Also, you are missing the phenolic link between the coil plunger and flipper bellcrank.

Sorry The pics I added were teardown pics as I was working through the game. I didn't take any pics of the assembled section but these pics are of another collector's machine with the same layout as mine. I copied that and used the pics I had. So what do you think I am missing? Can you provide pics?
Mike

59077da8746dbd6b2f3739d764dc8cd95a4c416b.jpeg (resized).jpg59077da8746dbd6b2f3739d764dc8cd95a4c416b.jpeg (resized).jpgfc625d08d890947d949d9be25f34fda825162a1c (resized).jpgfc625d08d890947d949d9be25f34fda825162a1c (resized).jpg
#2662 2 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Are you sure it's the right coil? That wrapping doesn't look anything like what's on my '48 williams.

I am not sure but I assume that it is correct as the above pics of another machine has the same wrapper color. I know that doesn't mean jack but I don't have a schematic for the game. any help out there from other collectors? I have A-26-1100 on this coil,
Mike

#2663 2 years ago
Quoted from packie1:

I am not sure but I assume that it is correct as the above pics of another machine has the same wrapper color. I know that doesn't mean jack but I don't have a schematic for the game. any help out there from other collectors? I have A-26-1100 on this coil,
Mike

I'm not sure what coil is correct. Williams used different numbering back then. But PBR probably has a schematic, or may even be able to just tell you what the correct coil is if you want to confirm

#2664 2 years ago

Sorry. the pictures were misleading.

#2665 2 years ago
Quoted from packie1:

Hello All:
Finishing a Williams 1950 "Lucky Inning". The flippers are controlled as one with a flat bar connecting both flippers and only one coil to draw the assembly in. Question I have is that the flippers work fine but there is no "umph" to them. They barely push the ball up the playfield. The travel distance for the flippers is near nothing. Any way to improve this? I have replaced all the worn parts. The only thing left would be the coil. I have adjusted the switch which powers the coil but with no real difference.
Suggestions?
Mike
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Williams was using "Impulse" flipper design at the time. This makes for some pretty weak flips over time. Years ago, I converted a similar machine from impulse flippers to conventional flippers. What a difference that made! There is a thread or two here on pinside detailing the conversion to conventional flippers.

#2666 2 years ago

following

#2667 2 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Easy enough to loosen and move it out of the way to test the theory.
DONT hold the flipper button, just flip and see if she sticks.

Yep - she does. I have a new switch in the mail. Should be here any minute now.

#2668 2 years ago
Quoted from KenLayton:

Williams was using "Impulse" flipper design at the time. This makes for some pretty weak flips over time. Years ago, I converted a similar machine from impulse flippers to conventional flippers. What a difference that made! There is a thread or two here on pinside detailing the conversion to conventional flippers.

Thanks I will look for it. In the meantime, I did contact PBR and confirmed that the machine has the wrong coil. It is supposed to be a W-27. They are sending substitute A27-850. This should help as I read that old Williams coils use code to identify bobbin and number of windings. Biggest thing here was the windings. The current coil has 1100 windings and the new will be 850. I will try that first and if the "umph" is back great! If not I will go the re-fit route.
Thanks all for your help.
Mike

PXL_20210530_230957166 (resized).jpgPXL_20210530_230957166 (resized).jpg
1 month later
#2669 2 years ago

Has anyone ever stuck a fliptronic mech in an older Data East game (with the conical spring) instead of rebuilding, then just moved the existing coil in and removed the EOS for a rainy day? I recently bought a reimport DE Robocop and the flippers are wrecked... wondering if it's worth just replacing the mech completely with the superior design instead of rebuilding it piece by piece.

1 week later
#2670 2 years ago

vid1900 I love these guides.

Have I missed it? Was there ever a guide to rebuilding Alvin G flipper mechs? It's tricky to source some parts which has always stumped me.

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

Flipper shaft Bushign: https://www.pinballspareparts.com.au/fsb-001.html
Crank: https://www.pinballspareparts.com.au/agflipper.html
Crank: https://www.pinballspareparts.com.au/agflipper1.html
Bats: https://www.pinballspareparts.com.au/bulk-items/ag-flipperbaty.html

But I've never found a replacement for the bushing between the crank and the link.

Just give up and replace all of it with a williams mech?

#2671 2 years ago

Yes, I posted about a conversion to complete Williams system 11 flipper assemblies:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/alvin-g-flipper-and-sling-assembly-replacements#post-6270619

I did it to a Pistol Poker and they fit and worked great. I used the original Alvin G flipper coil instead of a Williams coil.

4 weeks later
#2672 2 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

This is the correct installation of the Coil; Diodes safely away from the Coil Stop. It matters, do it right.
Some Coils were installed backwards at the factory, so you may have to pull a little slack wire from the harnesses to reach the proper position. Don't worry if you have to clip a few nylon Zip Ties to produce the slack you need.
If there is a little plastic nipple on the coil, you can cut it off, or cut a little notch in the coil bracket with a Rat Tail File or Dremel.
[quoted image]

So this may be a complete newbie question, but do I need to change the wiring when connecting back to the game, does turning the coil around make the plunger want to go in the opposite direction?

#2673 2 years ago
Quoted from rmillman:

does turning the coil around make the plunger want to go in the opposite direction?

No. Coil only pulls in one direction.

Quoted from rmillman:

but do I need to change the wiring when connecting back to the game,

It has to be identical no matter which end of the coil is up or down. Keep wires in the same spots no matter what.

LTG : )

#2674 2 years ago
Quoted from rmillman:

does turning the coil around make the plunger want to go in the opposite direction?

No and Infact many people flip them on purpose to move the lugs away from the stops.

2 weeks later
#2675 2 years ago

Before I dive too deep, could someone let me know if I can use this guide to fully replace and upgrade Data East Secret Service solid state flippers to Fliptronic?

I've been dogged with a bad upper flipper problem I cant seem to fix and will just totally replace, but wondered about upgrading? I'm kind of a noob, but pretty confident, but also realizing that Data East machines are kind of oddballs. So will this fliptronic full replace just work with Data East boards and electornics? Thx

#2676 2 years ago

Secret Service would be rebuilt similar to a williams system 11 flipper - it's not a solid state flipper on that game. That started with Robocop.

#2677 2 years ago
Quoted from slochar:

Secret Service would be rebuilt similar to a williams system 11 flipper - it's not a solid state flipper on that game. That started with Robocop.

Thanks slochar but if I want to upgrade to something more "snappy" as Vid1900 suggests can I do the conversion to fliptronic or something newer or will there be problems with the boards, voltage, and/or electronics? Seems like if it fits on the machine then it should be ok, reading through the details here.

#2678 2 years ago

The upgrade to WPC style flipper mechs on a system 11 is replacing the standard conical spring that sits around the plunger and pushes the the flipper back to rest when not activated, with the WPC style return spring (and associated arm extension on the flipper pawl) that pulls the flipper back to rest after flipping.

The WPC style feels snappier because it doesn't induce any drag on the coil plunger, and especially over time since it doesn't wear into the plunger or link.

Upgrading to WPC style is purely mechanical, and in no way effects the electronics of the game (assuming the flipper pawl extension still makes appropriate contact with the eos switch)

I just did this to a Taxi I picked up a little while ago. Simple and effective. Literally changing the spring style and adding the arm to hang it from.

#2679 2 years ago

Converting to WMS "fliptronic" is a whhhoooolllleeeeee different ballgame however, as you would be adding circuitry to the game that wasn't engineered from the start to have it.

Is it possible? I guess anything is possible, but that's way outside of my pay-grade...

#2680 2 years ago
Quoted from Grandnational007:

The upgrade to WPC style flipper mechs on a system 11 is replacing the standard conical spring that sits around the plunger and pushes the the flipper back to rest when not activated, with the WPC style return spring (and associated arm extension on the flipper pawl) that pulls the flipper back to rest after flipping.
The WPC style feels snappier because it doesn't induce any drag on the coil plunger, and especially over time since it doesn't wear into the plunger or link.
Upgrading to WPC style is purely mechanical, and in no way effects the electronics of the game (assuming the flipper pawl extension still makes appropriate contact with the eos switch)
I just did this to a Taxi I picked up a little while ago. Simple and effective. Literally changing the spring style and adding the arm to hang it from.

Yes, this is the one I am doing, and not Fliptronic (which I see now have a driver board and are a whole different thing), thanks for clarifying @grandnational007. I think I got caught up in the additional change of serial to parallel coils, which seems like it can also just be done as well in a system 11 Secret Service without any worry.

#2681 2 years ago
Quoted from L_satan:

Vid,
Will you do an addition about Gottlieb 80-80B flippers?

Quoted from vid1900:

Yes.
Next time I rebuild one for a client, I'll make up a new section of the guide.

I'm about to rebuild the flippers on an 80B, without the MA988 or MA989 conversion (see http://www.pbresource.com/rebuildk/gtb-ma988MA989.jpg).

Is there anything special I should keep in mind, or is it pretty straight forward? I'm using one of Steve Young's kits.

#2682 2 years ago
Quoted from Karthag:

Yes, this is the one I am doing, and not Fliptronic (which I see now have a driver board and are a whole different thing), thanks for clarifying Grandnational007. I think I got caught up in the additional change of serial to parallel coils, which seems like it can also just be done as well in a system 11 Secret Service without any worry.

Secret Service is a Data East game, and not a system 11 (Bally/Williams) game, though there were, shall we call them, certain liberties taken by DE, so there are many things that are *cough *cough "coincidentally" similar, and thus, compatible.

#2683 2 years ago
Quoted from Karthag:

Thanks slochar but if I want to upgrade to something more "snappy" as Vid1900 suggests can I do the conversion to fliptronic or something newer or will there be problems with the boards, voltage, and/or electronics? Seems like if it fits on the machine then it should be ok, reading through the details here.

The main reason people upgrade to some other geometry is because some of the parts are really expensive.

The stock flippers rebuilt with proper parts are fine. If you have 80 games yeah, upgrade to something to only have one type of kit for all the games, or if there's some other reason (bally linear flippers are terrible and aren't built for anything other than lazy operator longevity).

#2684 2 years ago
Quoted from Grandnational007:

Secret Service is a Data East game, and not a system 11 (Bally/Williams) game, though there were, shall we call them, certain liberties taken by DE, so there are many things that are *cough *cough "coincidentally" similar, and thus, compatible.

yeah, Im aware its not a "real" system 11, and that's what I was alluding to in saying DE are 'oddballs' in that sometimes online (here and elsewhere) they get lumped in with System 11 and other times there is a distinction. Which makes sense. It can be hard for someone new in the hobby to figure out the specifics, especially when buying parts or trying to do repairs. So im grateful for everyone's help!

1 month later
#2685 2 years ago

I am having problems with my flippers. I rebuild these per Vid's instruction, I not sure what is wrong. The F4 fuse blew, and I looked at the flippers. The left flipper plunger was stuck, because the sleeve melted inside the coil. Is it a switch problem?

Happy Veterans Day.

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#2686 2 years ago
Quoted from Enochsmoken:

I am having problems with my flippers. I rebuild these per Vid's instruction, I not sure what is wrong. The F4 fuse blew, and I looked at the flippers. The left flipper plunger was stuck, because the sleeve melted inside the coil. Is it a switch problem?
Happy Veterans Day.
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

It's tough to tell what is power and ground with your all green wiring, but when I blew a fuse after a full flipper swap, it was because i didn't pay attention to the diode direction when I wired everything up. Double check that.

#2687 2 years ago
Quoted from bigguybbr:

It's tough to tell what is power and ground with your all green wiring, but when I blew a fuse after a full flipper swap, it was because i didn't pay attention to the diode direction when I wired everything up. Double check that.

I figured out what problem was. The EOS switch was opening but one side of the contact was barely touching, so it was not open at all. It looked like it was open but when I tested it with the meter it had .02 ohms. Oh well time to buy a new coil.
Thanks
Brad

2 weeks later
#2688 2 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Find room on the playfield for your new mech.
You might have to spin it 180* to make it somehow fit between lights and wires.
Remember that you have a Right and Left mech, so don't make the rookie mistake of putting them on the wrong side.
Note that the solder lugs for the coil are mounted AWAY from the Coil Stop.
Note where your 28v and GND wire goes in relation to the band on the Coil Diode.
[quoted image]

has anyone tried to do this conversion on a Barracora with a double stack switch for lane change? I am not sure if it would work with the WPC bracket/spring/screws position?

#2689 2 years ago
Quoted from hisokajp:

has anyone tried to do this conversion on a Barracora with a double stack switch for lane change? I am not sure if it would work with the WPC bracket/spring/screws position?

I also would like to see a picture of one set up for a PinBot which should be similar.

///Rich

#2690 2 years ago

following

#2691 2 years ago

On this post: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-upgradingrebuilding-flippers/page/27#post-3101687

Vid mentions getting the "WPC" flipper mechs and then the other part numbers. The link to pinball life is broken. What is the part number for the "WPC" flipper mech? I see some dated from 92-98 for a full assembly, however there are 2 rebuild kits dated 2/92-4/93, and then 8/93 to 10/98.

This is for a stern hot hand, and I am a cheapskate and want to save the $13ea between the classic full assembly, and the newer Bally/Williams.

-Pat

(edit: I know this was mentioned somewhere before, I have read all 54 pages. But for the life of me I can't find the part number now. There was a small debate on why you shouldn't update your classic stern flippers to fliptronic.)

#2692 2 years ago
Quoted from PinFixin:

This is for a stern hot hand, and I am a cheapskate and want to save the $13ea between the classic full assembly, and the newer Bally/Williams.

If you were a real cheapskate you'd only replace the worn parts on your originals

#2693 2 years ago
Quoted from slochar:

If you were a real cheapskate you'd only replace the worn parts on your originals

Not to bad of an idea.

https://www.pinballlife.com/full-flipper-assembly-for-williamsbally-machines-from-021992-to-101998.html Which coil stop and coil?

-Pat

(Edit) Apparently I am going crazy. It's been a while since I worked on pinball machines. Vid does have the items listed in his original post:

1 week later
#2694 2 years ago
Quoted from RichWolfson:

I also would like to see a picture of one set up for a PinBot which should be similar.
///Rich

put mine together for Barracora, it worked well, the return spring is pretty close but it does not touch. i re-used the SW stack and screw, it worked well though i had to take out one layer of the stack since the metal bracket was a little thicker. Such better flipper feel now, night and day!
20211211_161407- (resized).jpg20211211_161407- (resized).jpg

#2695 2 years ago
Quoted from hisokajp:

put mine together for Barracora, it worked well, the return spring is pretty close but it does not touch. i re-used the SW stack and screw, it worked well though i had to take out one layer of the stack since the metal bracket was a little thicker. Such better flipper feel now, night and day!
[quoted image]

OK. This gives me strength. Switches on both sides of the mount. And night and day is the kicker.

Thanks,

///Rich

1 month later
#2696 2 years ago

Hi all,

Forgive me if this has been brought yup before.

My 1976 Gottlieb Volley has some flipper drag. I've rebuild tons of earlier style flippers, but haven't done one of this type yet.

1) Do you know if PBR's replacement bushings will raise the flippers away from the play field like Steve's "normal" replacement bushings?

2) If not, is there a way to adjust the height of these flippers? Raise the shaft?

THANKS.

These are the style I'm referencing.

gtb-a17565 (resized).jpggtb-a17565 (resized).jpg

UPDATE: I spoke with Steve today, these are exact replacements for the originals, same height.

#2697 2 years ago

Glad to know PBR has those!

#2698 2 years ago

Quick question. I am rebuilding my Pin•Bot flippers. New Fliptronic pawl and spring and new contacts but I also want to flip the coil (thanks Vid), yes I have to extend the wires. But the coil has a nib in it that fits on the coil stop but will not fit when turned around. Do I cut off the nib or take a bit out of the bracket. Is there an advantage to doing it either way?

Thanks in advance.

///Rich

#2699 2 years ago
Quoted from RichWolfson:

Do I cut off the nib or take a bit out of the bracket. Is there an advantage to doing it either way?

I take a bit out of the bracket myself. I use my chop saw and do it carefully. Is there an advantage? well there must be as that is what they went to. would stop the coil from twisting, even if just a slight amount was allowed the old way.

#2700 2 years ago
Quoted from dozer1:

I take a bit out of the bracket myself. I use my chop saw and do it carefully. Is there an advantage? well there must be as that is what they went to. would stop the coil from twisting, even if just a slight amount was allowed the old way.

Got it. Twisting. I have a bandsaw and with pay careful attention to the width of the notch now that you mention that. And I am grateful that you did.

///Rich

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