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(Topic ID: 18292)

VID's Guide to Upgrading/Rebuilding Flippers


By vid1900

8 years ago



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  • 2,497 posts
  • 415 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 42 days ago by cocomonkeh
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There are 2497 posts in this topic. You are on page 50 of 50.
#2451 5 months ago

I'm curious how many of these eBay kits have been sold to people experiancing the same problem. I emailed the seller and explained to him the situation and how it needed to be corrected.

3 weeks later
#2452 5 months ago

Updating this thread with flipper travel question. Working on a STTNG for a friend.

I bought the flipper rebuild kit from pinball life. Easy install. Question is my right flipper travels almost full 1/4" further up then my left...I have them both resting jsut above the dot on pf and look even. I'm looking at everything mechanical underneath but just cant and see what could do this. the coil stops identical. correct coil .I replaced the flipper mech and that is it...the metal bracket with the rubber stop both look like 90 degree angles. It really just feels like the right flipper travels further then the left before plunger hits the stop....anything else to check?

Thx

#2453 5 months ago
Quoted from billsfanmd:

Updating this thread with flipper travel question. Working on a STTNG for a friend.
I bought the flipper rebuild kit from pinball life. Easy install. Question is my right flipper travels almost full 1/4" further up then my left...I have them both resting jsut above the dot on pf and look even. I'm looking at everything mechanical underneath but just cant and see what could do this. the coil stops identical. correct coil .I replaced the flipper mech and that is it...the metal bracket with the rubber stop both look like 90 degree angles. It really just feels like the right flipper travels further then the left before plunger hits the stop....anything else to check?
Thx

Any chance the coil plungers are slightly different lengths?

#2454 5 months ago
Quoted from Pin-Pilot:

Any chance the coil plungers are slightly different lengths?

At this point the only thing it can be is that or a slight bent bracket. The coil stops are identical.

Ill see if I can compare both plungers.

Only way I see to resolve is a slight bend out of L bracket and realign flipper

2 weeks later
#2455 4 months ago

The new Cranks have 3 cap head bolt holes in them to grip the flipper shaft.
We are going to hijack one of the holes to mount a little spring wing arm. The arm is just a piece of "L" bracket. This allows us to avoid the junky Compression Springs, and use the much superior Extension Springs.

Can someone please give me a part # from somewhere where I can get this "L" Bracket? They don't allow anyone in my area to "shop" in the hardware store right now, but they will get it for me if I can get them a part #. Thanks much, mk

1 month later
#2456 3 months ago

Has this been addressed.......?

How do you adjust the flipper L-shaped stop brackets on a Gottlieb EM for proper travel?

thx

1 week later
#2457 3 months ago

I've just done a full rebuild of my left flipper, replaced the coil too as the sleeve was stuck fast in it.

Two questions, whilst the right flipper is working fine, since I bought two new coils and rebuild kit for both sides, is it worth just spending another hour or two (yes I'm slow doing this ) to do the right as well? Or should I just put the 2nd coil/kit to one side and wait until there's wear or signs of issues with the right flipper?

Second question is regarding the EOS switch. The guide says 3.2mm gap, although manual for BOP says 0.062inch +- 0.015inch. I take it that distance is measured between the two round contact points that touch when the switch is closed? Is the manual correct for gap distance, it's about 1.57mm give or take vs 3.2mm in this guide?

#2458 3 months ago

I always rebuild both at the same time. You will likely see a difference after you play for a while and it'll always be in the back of your mind.

However you don't need to change the coil unless it is bad. That should save you about an hour of soldering time.

I'd stick with the official BOP gap, the guide has too many different models to be accurate on everything.

#2459 3 months ago
Quoted from Black_Knight:

I always rebuild both at the same time. You will likely see a difference after you play for a while and it'll always be in the back of your mind.
However you don't need to change the coil unless it is bad. That should save you about an hour of soldering time.
I'd stick with the official BOP gap, the guide has too many different models to be accurate on everything.

I decided to rebuild it then I won't be wondering if one is playing better than the other. Didn't take as long as the first despite taking my time Glad I did too, the bushing only had 2 screws holding it in and no nuts on the rear. The coil whilst working had one diode soldered to the lug in a bit of a messy way (working but messy) and the sleeve was stuck inside so I just replaced the coil at the same time.

I think next time I need to buy anything for the machine I'll pickup a leaf tool as adjusting the EOS gap was a bit tricky with just a screw driver.

1 week later
#2460 85 days ago

What is the cure for .. IDK if there's an agreed-upon term.. "Ghost flip" - when the flipper is fully engaged in attempt to catch a ball, the ball lands on the flipper and it gives in just a little but then returns, causing the ball to flip up. For reference, Bally, FutureSpa. Rebuilt the flippers but did not replace the cranks. The set screws are fully tight. Is it an issue with the cranks, shafts, coils, or ?

#2461 84 days ago
Quoted from mr2xbass:

What is the cure for .. IDK if there's an agreed-upon term.. "Ghost flip" - when the flipper is fully engaged in attempt to catch a ball, the ball lands on the flipper and it gives in just a little but then returns, causing the ball to flip up. For reference, Bally, FutureSpa. Rebuilt the flippers but did not replace the cranks. The set screws are fully tight. Is it an issue with the cranks, shafts, coils, or ?

Coil is fine. Have you rebuilt it’s recently? Make sure the eos is good, adjusted properly, coil stop isn’t worn, plunger isn’t worn.

#2462 84 days ago

New in the last month. Kit from PBR , but the “mini” w/o new cranks. Adjusted the rod when first installed. I wouldn’t think it’s the coil. I’ll get back to it today and see if I can identify a better cause.

#2463 84 days ago
Quoted from mr2xbass:

What is the cure for .. IDK if there's an agreed-upon term.. "Ghost flip" - when the flipper is fully engaged in attempt to catch a ball, the ball lands on the flipper and it gives in just a little but then returns, causing the ball to flip up. For reference, Bally, FutureSpa. Rebuilt the flippers but did not replace the cranks. The set screws are fully tight. Is it an issue with the cranks, shafts, coils, or ?

All machines can do this to some extent it depends on the speed of the ball. A fast moving ball can overcome the hold winding on the flipper causing it to droop. You can look for flipper coils that have the stronger hold windings (the 2nd number on the coil like 23-4500, 23-5050 - higher number 4500/5050 - 5050 is weaker in the hold windings.) To a certain extent it's normal, but it depends on how extreme it is. Adjust the end of stroke to open at the very end so that if it does take a hit it will flip back up right away.

Did you replace the flipper bats as well? If you reuse them, sometimes the 'divot' that's worn into the flipper bat shaft can have some play. One solution is to swap left and right flippers. The shaft/position can be adjusted and seem tight, but the set screw will tend to bite back into that divot no matter what.

I'd take the slight impact any day over when the ball hops over the flipper when you're holding it up!

1 week later
#2464 71 days ago

Hi,

Just replaced the left flipper on my Black Knight bc the coil in there was the wrong one and the power was very weak.
I used Vid's replacement recommendations and bought a complete assembly from Pinball life with the suggestions he showed on Page 1 of this thread.
I installed it no issues and I believe I wired it up the same as the removed assembly.
However the issue is that there isn't enough power to pull the plunger. If I press the flipper button and move the plunger link into the coil it will hold, however not pulling the plunger in.
Voltage measured at all lugs is 36v, same as all flippers etc.
Could I have it wired backwards or something?? I'll post a picture asap.

#2465 71 days ago

Sounds like you have your high powered coil and low power coil wire on the wrong lugs.

#2466 71 days ago
Quoted from ChrisPINk25:

Sounds like you have your high powered coil and low power coil wire on the wrong lugs.

Or the end of stroke switch is not adjusted correctly.

#2467 71 days ago
Quoted from ChrisPINk25:

Sounds like you have your high powered coil and low power coil wire on the wrong lugs.

I had one of EOS wires on the power line. Guess I mixed it up bc the coils are flipped on the updated flipper assembly.
Moved it over and it works perfect now. So much power what a difference!
This is a must have upgrade for any system 7 pin IMO.

#2468 65 days ago

Hi I just got my first pin flash by Williams.
The left flipper only moves about half way I was told on here I might be able to tale it apart and clean it to make it work and I think I’m going to just for the experience. I was also led to this thread and it sounds like this Is the thing to do if I’m going to be putting any money into rebuilding the flippers so I have been going through this and since I don’t get some of it because I don’t know anything about pinballs I was hoping someone could just confirm that I’m understanding this.
So basically I need to buy the flipper assembly pictured below and I can just put that in place of the old ones following the guide of course
Thanks for any help

84F01CA2-F8A3-470F-9995-7431E1368658 (resized).png
#2469 65 days ago

Those will be fine. Just make sure you select three correct coil when buying them.

#2470 65 days ago

And the proper EOS

#2471 65 days ago

You're going to have to modify the base on the upper right one to fit it into flash. There's some bulbs going to the saucer that are in the way.

#2472 65 days ago
Quoted from slochar:

You're going to have to modify the base on the upper right one to fit it into flash. There's some bulbs going to the saucer that are in the way.

Maybe easier to move the bulbs?

#2473 65 days ago

Thanks guys. I saw someone mention the coil Sfl-19-400/30-750 and that was an option so was going to go with that. There is also an option for different coil stops, I don’t remember anyone saying anything about them so is the default ok? it says
A-12390
As for the eos there is an option for a normally closed that I was confident was correct.

I saw there was a problem with some lamps being in the way I think vid show a flex led that would fix this might try to get those as I was told this machine was converted to led’s haven’t had time to even look at it yet.

Thanks

1 week later
#2474 57 days ago

OMG - there is 50 pages of posts - trying to find out if anyone has done the flipper upgrade on a Flash Gordon?

I have a project Flash Gordon and all the flipper mechanisms were removed so I thought I might as well upgrade it.

Anyone done this before? Anyone got any advice on what to buy. I need exact coilds, stops, brackets etc. I got nothing so I have to replace it all.

#2475 57 days ago
Quoted from wamonkey:

I have a project Flash Gordon and all the flipper mechanisms were removed so I thought I might as well upgrade it.

If you mean upgrade by going to the earlier non-linear Bally mechs, Marco spec lists all the part numbers:
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/ASE-1587-101 (left side)
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/ASE-1587-102 (right side)

You'll have to get a mini flipper bat as well, and some extra switches. Planetary pinball should have the parts manual to show the EOS switches you need.

If you mean by going with Williams flippers (not recommended IMO) you can buy complete assemblies from pinball life. The bat will be wrong, the coil will be too 'hot' (williams flipper coils of the appropriate vintage are intended for 28v, not 43v) and it might not physically fit in the FG machine.

Anything but linears is good! The linears wear quickly and have too much moving mass to give a good flip. You could even put classic stern mechs in there (available at pinball life)

#2476 57 days ago
Quoted from slochar:

If you mean by going with Williams flippers (not recommended IMO) you can buy complete assemblies from pinball life. The bat will be wrong, the coil will be too 'hot' (williams flipper coils of the appropriate vintage are intended for 28v, not 43v) and it might not physically fit in the FG machine.

Couldn't you just use 50V coils for the bally? They'd be a bit weaker at 43 but. Also why wouldn't a bally bat work?

#2477 57 days ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Couldn't you just use 50V coils for the bally? They'd be a bit weaker at 43 but. Also why wouldn't a bally bat work?

If the Bally bat has smooth shaft I guess it would. (Does the mini flipper? I haven't bought one of those in years and last time I did it had a groove cut into it which I won't think the williams pawl would grab) The whole point of changing the flippers would be to make them stronger so why go with 50v flipper coils if you didn't have to?

The classic stern flippers would be a better choice here, if the OP wasn't going for the earlier Bally version, since the footprint of the mech is the same. At least all the shots would be similar with the Bally since the stroke is the same.

#2478 57 days ago
Quoted from slochar:

The whole point of changing the flippers would be to make them stronger so why go with 50v flipper coils if you didn't have to?

Powering 25V coils with 43v seems like it's going to just smash things

#2479 57 days ago

It depends on what he's trying to accomplish. Like I said, I'd go with original style coils and original baseplates, just change the link from the linear stuff to the earlier fiber type (or the stern type.... still with original bally/stern coils). If he really wants Hot rod coils he can use the 450 stern ones, I don't think that's necessary on this game though, even with the heavy linears you can still make all the shots you need to. Super powered coils will probably start to break the drop targets.

#2480 57 days ago

I had rebuilt linears in mine and there was no issues. felt fine. I don't get what the issue people have with them is

#2481 57 days ago
Quoted from zacaj:

I had rebuilt linears in mine and there was no issues. felt fine. I don't get what the issue people have with them is

Expensive and once the plunger gets worn they stick due to the crappy design. The plunger shortens and then travels too far and the back of the plunger gets caught in the bracket.

#2482 57 days ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Expensive and once the plunger gets worn they stick due to the crappy design. The plunger shortens and then travels too far and the back of the plunger gets caught in the bracket.

Maybe psychological but they fell heavier and sluggish, even freshly rebuilt... if I rebuild any I go down to biscuit style, just did my Fathom that way

#2483 56 days ago
Quoted from slochar:

If the Bally bat has smooth shaft I guess it would. (Does the mini flipper? I haven't bought one of those in years and last time I did it had a groove cut into it which I won't think the williams pawl would grab) The whole point of changing the flippers would be to make them stronger so why go with 50v flipper coils if you didn't have to?
The classic stern flippers would be a better choice here, if the OP wasn't going for the earlier Bally version, since the footprint of the mech is the same. At least all the shots would be similar with the Bally since the stroke is the same.

With respect to all who post, I want to upgrade the flippers, the posts in this form is to upgrade the flippers mechs to get a tighter More responsive feel. VID1900 (the man, the myth, the legend) Has whole sections on upgrading liners to WMS and answered questions about Bally machines that were upgrading, I was just asking because I did not see Flash Gordon. There were multiple posts for EBD which are close in vintage.

I have the small flipper and shaft, but I have no base plates or anything and I think WMS mechs would be the way I want to go and I think they will fit. VID1900 discussed the coil strength issue, just looking for what someone did for Flash Gordon and their experience what exactly they bought. The whole forum is about combining the pieces, mechs, coil stops, coils, springs into a more modern or better flipper assembly, not about any desire to keep things original.

I appreciate everyone’s comments it would be great if VID1900 was still around earlier in the forum he would straight up give people the direction of what to buy.

Someone must have done a Flash Gordon not exactly a rare machine.

#2484 56 days ago

I don’t see why it wouldn’t work fine just like EBD. Do it! Pinball life has those full assemblies. I say just add those. The only possible tough part would be the upper flipper and the new base plates not fitting.

#2485 56 days ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

I don’t see why it wouldn’t work fine just like EBD. Do it! Pinball life has those full assemblies. I say just add those. The only possible tough part would be the upper flipper and the new base plates not fitting.

I am trying to find exactly what to buy...what coils, coil stops, what exactly I need to buy...

Pinball Life’s site is good but it takes a little work to put together exactly what will work.

I was hoping someone said I did this and bought this....

#2486 56 days ago
Quoted from wamonkey:

The whole forum is about combining the pieces, mechs, coil stops, coils, springs into a more modern or better flipper assembly, not about any desire to keep things original.

Original meaning same footprint - so you know you won't have issues putting them in.

EDIT: I see from your game list that you have a couple williams games that have the same flipper bases in them - start measuring to see if they will physically fit.
The only one that would possibly cause trouble is the upper right.

#2487 56 days ago
Quoted from wamonkey:

I am trying to find exactly what to buy...what coils, coil stops, what exactly I need to buy...
Pinball Life’s site is good but it takes a little work to put together exactly what will work.
I was hoping someone said I did this and bought this....

Same coils as you’re using now I believe. Pinball life’s assemblies have a drop down to pick the correct coil. The rest is all new and included in the assembly. It’s just one item you have to buy. It’s all there.

#2488 56 days ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Same coils as you’re using now I believe. Pinball life’s assemblies have a drop down to pick the correct coil. The rest is all new and included in the assembly. It’s just one item you have to buy. It’s all there.

The bally coils aren't going to be the right size for a williams mech, will they?

I feel like you probably want an 11630 but hard to be sure without someone having tested them in a bally already

#2489 56 days ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Same coils as you’re using now I believe. Pinball life’s assemblies have a drop down to pick the correct coil. The rest is all new and included in the assembly. It’s just one item you have to buy. It’s all there.

I paid $300 for my Flash Gordon so he cut out the flippers - all the plates and coils so I have to buy it all.

I will have to see what coil will work....for the upgrade, I have to buy it.

MH

#2490 56 days ago
Quoted from zacaj:

The bally coils aren't going to be the right size for a williams mech, will they?
I feel like you probably want an 11630 but hard to be sure without someone having tested them in a bally already

Yeah maybe not. I haven’t read Vids notes on this so maybe the Williams coils work and you just need to make sure the wiring is right.

#2491 56 days ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Yeah maybe not. I haven’t read Vids notes on this so maybe the Williams coils work and you just need to make sure the wiring is right.

I think he recommends a different coil and a small adjustment to the gap etc. makes it all work.

#2492 56 days ago

Please let us know how it goes. I’m not a fan of linear either and haven’t done the swap.

1 week later
#2493 48 days ago
Quoted from Bloodsin:

I saw someone mention the coil Sfl-19-400/30-750 and that was an option so was going to go with that. There is also an option for different coil stops, I don’t remember anyone saying anything about them so is the default ok? it says
A-12390
As for the eos there is an option for a normally closed that I was confident was correct.

I saw there was a problem with some lamps being in the way I think vid show a flex led that would fix this might try to get those as I was told this machine was converted to led’s haven’t had time to even look at it yet.

Yes, definitely the SFL-19-400/30-750 is the way to go, and also yes to the normally closed (high voltage) EOS. As for the coil stop, I prefer the A-12111.

I do this to all the machines at my Arcade, and to all the games I sell, based on the suggestions of Vid in this thread, whose advice on Pinside has had as big of an influence on my pinball repair and upgrading as Jimi Hendrix did on my guitar playing! This same coil and setup works great on Gottlieb system 1 and 80 also.

In any event, here are some pics of the Flash at The Ottawa Pinball Arcade. I can't remember how or what I had to do to make them fit, but the pics should illustrate what can fit where and work without any major effort. And yes, I just noticed that I never put in the final 4 screws in each assembly, I usually put 4 and add the others once I'm satisfied with the final position and everything else has a place (light sockets, harness brackets, etc.)

I have had nothing but compliments about how well the game plays, even from a hardcore pinball guy that hates the machine normally!

flash3 (resized).jpgflash2 (resized).jpgflash1 (resized).jpg
#2494 48 days ago
Quoted from wamonkey:

With respect to all who post, I want to upgrade the flippers, the posts in this form is to upgrade the flippers mechs to get a tighter More responsive feel. VID1900 (the man, the myth, the legend) Has whole sections on upgrading liners to WMS and answered questions about Bally machines that were upgrading, I was just asking because I did not see Flash Gordon. There were multiple posts for EBD which are close in vintage.

I have the small flipper and shaft, but I have no base plates or anything and I think WMS mechs would be the way I want to go and I think they will fit. VID1900 discussed the coil strength issue, just looking for what someone did for Flash Gordon and their experience what exactly they bought. The whole forum is about combining the pieces, mechs, coil stops, coils, springs into a more modern or better flipper assembly, not about any desire to keep things original.

I appreciate everyone’s comments it would be great if VID1900 was still around earlier in the forum he would straight up give people the direction of what to buy.

Someone must have done a Flash Gordon not exactly a rare machine.

The legends are true, Vid has never been wrong about anything that I have been able to determine, and this is one of my all time fave upgrades.

The Flash Gordon at the Arcade has had this system in it for 4 years, and still plays like it's on fire. It's been a while, but I don't recall having any trouble putting them in this machine. I would recommend adding the capacitor used on the pre-fliptronic system, as it extends the life of the EOS significantly. After 4 years of commercial use, even the EOS switch is still in great shape!

My setup includes; 16630 flipper coils, A-12111 coil stops, and of course the high voltage normally closed EOS, with the capacitor.

flashgordon1 (resized).jpgflashgordon2 (resized).jpgflashgordon3 (resized).jpg
#2495 42 days ago
Quoted from cocomonkeh:

I have a judge dredd I’ve rebuilt a few times. Assuming the flippers are properly rebuilt (vertical gap is correct, etc), where would I go next for flipper coils that get real hot and weak after a handful of games ?

Asking this again. Is there anything on the fliptronics board I should check or anything in the power system? It’s not the eos it’s a wpc game

#2496 42 days ago
Quoted from cocomonkeh:

Asking this again. Is there anything on the fliptronics board I should check or anything in the power system? It’s not the eos it’s a wpc game

Clean/replace optos?

#2497 42 days ago

New boards there too. This is really killing me. I guess I'm going to try a different fliptronics board

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