VID&#039;s Guide to Upgrading/Rebuilding Flippers

Hi, got a Williams Blackout here, I also have about 20 flipper rebuilds under my belt. I recently rebuilt my flippers, flipper bushings and added the coil brackets on this Blackout and it continues to give me problems. They have plenty of high power, but when I try to catch/cradle the ball, the low power doesn't hold the flipper up. The flipper will drop until it hits the high power side of the switch and then make the ball jump. I'm starting to think the plungers are to short and not making direct contact with the coil stop. Will this weaken the low power side.

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#2402 4 years ago

JRR

Da-Shaker

Pinside+ Frequent

When I push the plunger in I can't here it click and contact the coil stop. I purchased them on Ebay. Anyone else have this problem?

#2403 4 years ago

???

KenLayton

In Memoriam

Olympia, WA

12y 83,400 5,965

I think you've got the wrong plunger & link assembly. Should be the "tapered" link on there.

#2404 4 years ago

DOZ

dozer1

Pinside+ Addict

Is there a compression style spring on the plunger? I suspect it is fully compressing it and bottoming out on it. If that is happening, the plunger doesn't hit the coil stop. That would make it act like you described. If that's it, I would try to rig up extension springs.

#2405 4 years ago

ERW

chuckwurt

You’re also missing the rubber grommet backstop for the bracket.

#2406 4 years ago

JRR

Da-Shaker

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Quoted from chuckwurt:
You’re also missing the rubber grommet backstop for the bracket.

I removed it for longer flipper travel

#2407 4 years ago

JRR

Da-Shaker

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Quoted from dozer1:
Is there a compression style spring on the plunger? I suspect it is fully compressing it and bottoming out on it. If that is happening, the plunger doesn't hit the coil stop. That would make it act like you described. If that's it, I would try to rig up extension springs.

Yes there's a compression spring.
I think that I have the same assembly on my Firepower. The plunger definitely clicks/contacts the coil stop on FP

#2408 4 years ago

JRR

Da-Shaker

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This is what I bought

ebay.com link: itm

#2409 4 years ago

JRR

Da-Shaker

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Quoted from KenLayton:
I think you've got the wrong plunger & link assembly. Should be the "tapered" link on there.

Tapered link, as in the plastic bracket on the end of the plunger should be tapered where it touches the spring?

#2410 4 years ago

MOF

mof

Mof Pinball

San Francisco, CA

11y 149K 13,302 25 94

Quoted from Da-Shaker:
longer flipper travel

I would use a BIGGER grommet if I could for LESS flipper travel, LESS easy-peasy trapping, etc. I have them on all my Williams games.

Why (on earth) would you want longer flipper travel?

-mof

#2411 4 years ago

JRR

Da-Shaker

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Quoted from mof:
I would use a BIGGER grommet if I could for LESS flipper travel, LESS easy-peasy trapping, etc. I have them on all my Williams games.
Why (on earth) would you want longer flipper travel?
-mof

Easy-peasy trapping I guess. Anyway, let's get back to the initial question, haha

#2412 4 years ago

ERW

chuckwurt

Quoted from mof:
I would use a BIGGER grommet if I could for LESS flipper travel, LESS easy-peasy trapping, etc. I have them on all my Williams games.
Why (on earth) would you want longer flipper travel?
-mof

I don’t understand how taking the grommet off increases travel? Shorter links or shorter coil stops do that. Taking the grommet off would make the flipper sit lower at rest.

#2413 4 years ago

ERW

chuckwurt

Quoted from Da-Shaker:
Easy-peasy trapping I guess. Anyway, let's get back to the initial question, haha

I would’ve made these mechs fliptronic with extension springs and bought from pinball life. Maybe compare these parts to your firepower?

Also there are no coil stops in that kit you posted. Did you replace those too?

#2414 4 years ago

JRR

Da-Shaker

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Quoted from mof:
I would use a BIGGER grommet if I could for LESS flipper travel, LESS easy-peasy trapping, etc. I have them on all my Williams games.
Why (on earth) would you want longer flipper travel?
-mof

Seems like standard flipper travel without them.

1585788431448786976927 (resized).jpg

#2415 4 years ago

JRR

Da-Shaker

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Quoted from chuckwurt:
I don’t understand how taking the grommet off increases travel? Shorter links or shorter coil stops do that. Taking the grommet off would make the flipper sit lower at rest.

If you adjust your flippers parallel with the out lanes without your grommet, it'll give you higher flipper travel on the swing.

#2416 4 years ago

JRR

Da-Shaker

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Quoted from chuckwurt:
I would’ve made these mechs fliptronic with extension springs and bought from pinball life. Maybe compare these parts to your firepower?

Yes I might have to remove 1 flipper assembley from both machines. I'm just trying to prevent that.

I appreciate the help

#2417 4 years ago

ERW

chuckwurt

Are your coil stops new?

If you bought the flipper plates with the coil stops attached to them then used this separate rebuild kit that possibly has a plunger that’s too short, it could cause your issue. If you were to put the longer plunger/link into the game that might correct your issue. But your flipper travel is going to decrease. Haha. And that will be whether you put the grommet back on or not.

#2418 4 years ago

DOZ

dozer1

Pinside+ Addict

Quoted from Da-Shaker:
If you adjust your flippers parallel with the out lanes without your grommet, it'll give you higher flipper travel on the swing.

I can see this, but wouldn't do it. just would have the rubber bumper in there where it belongs.

PIC REQUEST
Just like your pic on post #2401 except lower so I can see the spring in the compressed position. Thx

#2419 4 years ago

JRR

Da-Shaker

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Quoted from chuckwurt:
Are your coil stops new?

Yes

The company is telling me I could have soldered the EOS switch backwards. THIS is possible, but I thought it didn't matter which wire went to the swich lugs, since it's a switch with 1 wire on each side.

#2420 4 years ago

JRR

Da-Shaker

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Quoted from dozer1:
I can see this, but wouldn't do it. just would have the rubber bumper in there where it belongs.
PIC REQUEST
Just like your pic on post #2401 except lower so I can see the spring in the compressed position. Thx

15857892411271092699127 (resized).jpg

#2421 4 years ago

ERW

chuckwurt

Quoted from Da-Shaker:
Yes
The company is telling me I could have soldered the EOS switch backwards. THIS is possible, but I thought it didn't matter which wire went to the swich lugs, since it's a switch with 1 wire on each side.

That is correct. As long as the two wires are on the coil right, it doesn’t matter where they got on the switch tabs. Just one wire on each tab.

#2422 4 years ago

JRR

Da-Shaker

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1585789316504401776715 (resized).jpg

#2423 4 years ago

JRR

Da-Shaker

Pinside+ Frequent

Quoted from chuckwurt:
To hat is correct. As long as the two wires are on the coil right, it doesn’t matter where they got on the switch tabs. Just one wire on each tab.

I agree. The coil lugs haven't changed

#2424 4 years ago

?Z?

phishrace

Pinside member

Unknown

12y 46,900 4,913

Quoted from Da-Shaker:
This is what I bought
ebay.com link

Cosmic Gunfight and Blackout do use the same rebuild kit, but I don't recommend buying rebuild kits on eBay. Flippers are the most important mechanisms in a pinball machine. If you're going to skimp, don't skimp on the flippers.

Looking at the pics, the plungers are too short.

Post last edited 4 years ago: “Mixed up Cosmics”

#2425 4 years ago

DOZ

dozer1

Pinside+ Addict

That is spring in uncompressed position. Please, a pic in the compressed position.

#2426 4 years ago

JRR

Da-Shaker

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You can also see by the pic the coil sleeve barely reaches the hole in the metal bracket and doesn't come out the other side

#2427 4 years ago

JRR

Da-Shaker

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Quoted from phishrace:
Cosmic Princess (Stern 1979) and Blackout (WMS 1980) have different flippers requiring different rebuild kits. You likely got the wrong parts. Try Pinball Life.
You've done 20 rebuilds and you're still buying kits on eBay?

Tried to save on shipping

#2428 4 years ago

JRR

Da-Shaker

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1585789591904406718261 (resized).jpg

#2429 4 years ago

DOZ

dozer1

Pinside+ Addict

So there you go. It bottoms out on the spring, your not hitting the coil stop.

#2430 4 years ago

JRR

Da-Shaker

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#2431 4 years ago

JRR

Da-Shaker

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Quoted from dozer1:
So there you go. It bottoms out on the spring, your not hitting the coil stop.

So it's the spring and not the length of the plunger?

#2432 4 years ago

DOZ

dozer1

Pinside+ Addict

What I would do is this.. Remove the compression spring and re assemble. If you can then feel it smacking the coil stop nicely when you push it up like that, proceed to install extension springs somehow.

#2433 4 years ago

DOZ

dozer1

Pinside+ Addict

I could take a pic of a game that I have, where I installed extension springs with that type of base. (which doesn't have a place on it to drill a hole for the extension springs)

#2434 4 years ago

JRR

Da-Shaker

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I just removed a flipper from Firepower and another from Blackout. Firepower has an additional 1/8" long plunger.

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KIMG0147 (resized).JPG

#2435 4 years ago

DOZ

dozer1

Pinside+ Addict

Cool, basically do what you gotta do to not be bottoming out on the spring. Good luck.

#2436 4 years ago

JRR

Da-Shaker

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Blackout is only reaching 2" and FP 2 1/8-2 1/4. The plunger bracket changes it a bit

KIMG0149 (resized).JPG

#2437 4 years ago

JRR

Da-Shaker

Pinside+ Frequent

Quoted from dozer1:
Cool, basically do what you gotta do to not be bottoming out on the spring. Good luck.

Thank you for your help

#2438 4 years ago

ZAC

zacaj

RPC

Rochester, NY

11y 158K 10,387 85 122 1

Quoted from Da-Shaker:
I just removed a flipper from Firepower and another from Blackout. Firepower has an additional 1/8" long plunger.[quoted image][quoted image]

I doubt that FP plunger is original. The grey links didn't come until much later.

#2439 4 years ago

???

KenLayton

In Memoriam

Olympia, WA

12y 83,400 5,965

Quoted from Da-Shaker:
[quoted image]

That is NOT the correct tapered plunger & link assembly. It's a WPC plunger & link.

Also, you have a pop bumper spring on that assembly and do not have the correct TAPERED (a.k.a. conical) flipper return spring.

#2440 4 years ago

ERW

chuckwurt

I think the EOS switches are going to be the only things that survive this fix. Haha

#2441 4 years ago

DOZ

dozer1

Pinside+ Addict

This is what the tapered link looks like that KenLayton is referring to. Anytime compression springs are used, make sure you have this link. Also Ken mentioned it should be a conical spring instead of a pop bumper spring. Absolutely. (If you must defy Vid and use compression springs .lol)
detail (resized).jpg

I should clarify. I am talking only about Williams applications where conical springs are used.

#2442 4 years ago

JRR

Da-Shaker

Pinside+ Frequent

So, I happened to have a 1/8" longer plunger. I'm not even sure when and what I bought it for. I installed it and it clicks/contacts the coil stop. Played a game. PERFECT!! Hell ya.
Ultimately the freaking plungers were to short, by 1/8". I have spent Hours on this.

15857925862431206729037 (resized).jpg

#2443 4 years ago

JRR

Da-Shaker

Pinside+ Frequent

Also, you have a pop bumper spring on that assembly and do not have the correct TAPERED (a.k.a. conical) flipper return spring.

On the dirty Firepower one. I just bought the machine. Thanks for telling me

#2444 4 years ago

ERW

chuckwurt

Quoted from Da-Shaker:
So, I happened to have a 1/8" longer plunger. I'm not even sure when and what I bought it for. I installed it and it clicks/contacts the coil stop. Played a game. PERFECT!! Hell ya.
Ultimately the freaking plungers were to short, by 1/8". I have spent Hours on this.[quoted image]

Was it worth the shipping savings?

Glad you already had some parts to fix it.

#2445 4 years ago

JRR

Da-Shaker

Pinside+ Frequent

Quoted from chuckwurt:
Was it worth the shipping savings?
Glad you already had some parts to fix it.

That will be the last flipper rebuild kit I order off of eBay, haha. I installed the new plunger to both of my flippers and they are fantastic.Thanks again for the help

I have seen this problem before without a solid solution. If nothing else, hopefully this will help others.

#2446 4 years ago

JRR

Da-Shaker

Pinside+ Frequent

Got rid of my flipper hum too.

#2447 4 years ago

JRR

Da-Shaker

Pinside+ Frequent

Quoted from KenLayton:
Also, you have a pop bumper spring on that assembly and do not have the correct TAPERED (a.k.a. conical) flipper return spring.

Wow, I thought you were talking about my FP, but your saying the springs on my new Blackout flipper rebuild kit are wrong too. Well shit!

#2448 4 years ago

ZAC

zacaj

RPC

Rochester, NY

11y 158K 10,387 85 122 1

Quoted from KenLayton:
That is NOT the correct tapered plunger & link assembly. It's a WPC plunger & link.
Also, you have a pop bumper spring on that assembly and do not have the correct TAPERED (a.k.a. conical) flipper return spring.

Older games had non-tapered springs. I don't think they switched to them for a few years after going to the single piece base

#2449 4 years ago

???

KenLayton

In Memoriam

Olympia, WA

12y 83,400 5,965

Quoted from Da-Shaker:
So, I happened to have a 1/8" longer plunger. I'm not even sure when and what I bought it for. I installed it and it clicks/contacts the coil stop. Played a game. PERFECT!! Hell ya.
Ultimately the freaking plungers were to short, by 1/8". I have spent Hours on this.[quoted image]

Looks like a modern Stern flipper plunger and link assembly.

#2450 4 years ago

JRR

Da-Shaker

Pinside+ Frequent