(Topic ID: 18292)

VID's Guide to Upgrading/Rebuilding Flippers


By vid1900

7 years ago



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#2251 8 months ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Does it matter which eos wire goes to which lug as long as you have one wire going to the center lug and one to the power return lug?

Neither the EOS Switch, nor the Switch Capacitor (if used) have any polarity

#2252 8 months ago
Quoted from epeabs:

If I remove the wrappers from Flipper coils, or any coils for that matter, can I soak them in a cleaner?

Sure.

You can even put them in the Ultrasonic if they are crazy dirty.

I put the whole wiring harness, coils and all in the dishwasher.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/cleaning-playfield-harnesses-vids-guide

#2253 8 months ago

Thanks Vid. That was my thought.

2 weeks later
#2254 8 months ago

What is the recommended gap between the bottom of the flipper bat and the playfield surface? Not sure if this is different from manufacturer to manufacturer, but I'm looking specifically at late Bally EMs and early SS Bally machines. I am planning to rebuild flipper mechs and replace flipper bats in this process. I would like to know what is correct as I reassemble.

Thanks

#2255 8 months ago
Quoted from Skidave:

What is the recommended gap between the bottom of the flipper bat and the playfield surface? Not sure if this is different from manufacturer to manufacturer, but I'm looking specifically at late Bally EMs and early SS Bally machines. I am planning to rebuild flipper mechs and replace flipper bats in this process. I would like to know what is correct as I reassemble.
Thanks

For a quick estimate, it is usually the thickness of a credit card or gift card.

#2256 8 months ago

Measure the gap between the bottom of the bat and the top of the nylon bushing. The bushing should protrude a bit above the playfield. After some experience you’ll be able to do it by feel, grabbing the bat to check for that up-down wiggle room. Not too much, not too little.

#2257 8 months ago
Quoted from Skidave:

What is the recommended gap between the bottom of the flipper bat and the playfield surface? Not sure if this is different from manufacturer to manufacturer, but I'm looking specifically at late Bally EMs and early SS Bally machines. I am planning to rebuild flipper mechs and replace flipper bats in this process. I would like to know what is correct as I reassemble.
Thanks

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-upgradingrebuilding-flippers#post-284682

#2258 8 months ago

Thank you all for the reply and link.

-2
#2259 8 months ago

The problem I face is that even with new parts, there is up down movement of the shaft inside the coil sleeve. When I do that method, and pull the spacer out..gravity pulls the flipper bat back flush with the bushing again.
These mechanisms are too sloppy for that kind of precision. Just adjust it so it doesnt bind and doesnt touch the playfield.

#2260 8 months ago
Quoted from yellowghost:

The problem I face is that even with new parts, there is up down movement of the shaft inside the coil sleeve. When I do that method, and pull the spacer out..gravity pulls the flipper bat back flush with the bushing again.
These mechanisms are too sloppy for that kind of precision. Just adjust it so it doesnt bind and doesnt touch the playfield.

When the flipper is energized, the flipper should rise up a bit. I always put my spacer below the bushing, between that and the crank, since that's how it'll sit anyway

#2261 8 months ago

Any problem with using a Williams bat in the place of a Gottleib (sys 3 with the heavy metal "shoe")??

The replacement Gottleibs are expensive and the Williams bats seem to be the exact same size of shaft.

Thanks!

#2262 8 months ago

So, in reference to posts I made earlier vis-a-vis the upper flipper coil heating up, my wife played an extended session a couple of days ago and the game played fine, but that coil was hot.

I'm wondering why that coil gets so hot, but no other coil on the game does so. While I need to verify this, I am almost certain that my upper flipper on Fireball II does not get hot like that.

Maybe I should re-work the wiring. Any thoughts?

I am in the process of finishing a brush-on clear of my Fireball II machine, and also trying to get a monitor issue with my Donkey Kong game resolved, so D&D is somewhat on the back-burner at the moment, but I am curious as to why that upper flipper coil gets so hot.

#2263 8 months ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

So, in reference to posts I made earlier vis-a-vis the upper flipper coil heating up, my wife played an extended session a couple of days ago and the game played fine, but that coil was hot.
I'm wondering why that coil gets so hot, but no other coil on the game does so. While I need to verify this, I am almost certain that my upper flipper on Fireball II does not get hot like that.
Maybe I should re-work the wiring. Any thoughts?
I am in the process of finishing a brush-on clear of my Fireball II machine, and also trying to get a monitor issue with my Donkey Kong game resolved, so D&D is somewhat on the back-burner at the moment, but I am curious as to why that upper flipper coil gets so hot.

I would make 100% sure the EOS it opening. Lift the playfield and energize the flipper with the flipper button (don't just push the pawl with your finger) and watch the EOS open. Make sure you can visibly see a gap in the EOS when held.

If it is opening, I would turn my focus to the coil. Make sure you have the power coil and hold coil measure a correct resistance and are wired up properly with the EOS.

#2264 8 months ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

I would make 100% sure the EOS it opening. Lift the playfield and energize the flipper with the flipper button (don't just push the pawl with your finger) and watch the EOS open. Make sure you can visibly see a gap in the EOS when held.
If it is opening, I would turn my focus to the coil. Make sure you have the power coil and hold coil measure a correct resistance and are wired up properly with the EOS.

Thanks, and it is opening. I put a new coil and a new switch in, about the time I made my first post on this issue in this thread. In fact, it was another user who noted from my pictures that that switch should be closed. Imagine my shame LOL.

Prior to that, the old EOS was gapped ridiculously open all of the time.

I didn't set it that way, but I copied it with the new switch. Then I corrected that issue, setting it to normal which is closed when idle. Like I said, imagine my shame and I did it publicly LOLOL

Chasing "ghosts" I am learning, is half the fun with these things

#2265 8 months ago

Are you sure your EOS wires are connected to the correct lugs on the upper flipper? Compare the pics of your right and upper right flippers in post 2248. The EOS wires are not arranged the same.

In your lower right & left flippers, EOS is connected to center lug and the grey wire - the ground side.
In the upper right, EOS is connected to center and brown wire - the power side.

You asked about the arrangement post 2238, but did not switch your wires to account for your coil being constructed differently (flipped) than in vids pic.

#2266 8 months ago

I'm confused. Seriously, I am really confused. Something is not correct, but I'm not seeing it, even if it is staring right at me plain as day to others.

I modeled the wiring for the upper flipper off of the lower flipper NC switch, not the NO side of the switch. I can get that upper flipper to fire, with only the 43v and ground hooked up to the proper lugs. With no other wires connected to the middle/EOS lug or the switch leafs, that flipper will fire.

The only time I can not get the flipper to fire is if I model the upper flipper wiring to match the lower NO switch, which makes sense because it is, in effect, "shorting to ground", correct?

The picture enclosed, is not how the wiring is configured now. I tried this configuration, flipper will fire but the coil still gets hot.

Maybe it's normal, but it's awfully damn hot and I don't know how that is going to ensure a long coil life.

208_0854 (resized).JPG
#2267 8 months ago

The upper and lower should look the same. They are not.

Move the outside EOS wire to the other outside lug. Leave the power and ground where they are.

#2268 8 months ago

Did that, the flipper won't fire unless I disconnect the wire from the middle-lug or open up the contacts on the switch.

eta

thanks for the help, I really appreciate it. More than I can express.

for the time being I de-soldered the wire from the middle lug and the inner switch leaf, and will monitor it.

#2269 7 months ago

Junk Yard Flipper Question:

I encountered a problem where every time I hit the flipper button, the flipper would stop in a different position. It would go up slightly with each hit and stay there until it eventually it was stuck all the way up. So, I tried my first flipper rebuild today...bought a kit and swapped out the stuff in there (crank assembly, coil sleeve, EOS switch, spring) and it's doing the same thing. It does the same "stop in a different position," but now it even moves backwards (towards the player) and stops. Anyone ever encountered this?

I've tightened the bolt on the crank shaft to the point where I don't think the problem is that the flipper bat shaft is turning. There is some play for the flipper to move up and down. (Though I ballparked that based on the other flipper because I don't have a gauge.) How are flipper bats supposed to be attached to the shaft? I did have to push the bat back onto the shaft after I removed the flipper. Could the flipper itself be spinning while the shaft is not? Again, this is my first flipper rebuild, so I'm not super familiar with everything just yet.

Thanks!

#2270 7 months ago
Quoted from PBaller22:

Junk Yard Flipper Question:
I encountered a problem where every time I hit the flipper button, the flipper would stop in a different position. It would go up slightly with each hit and stay there until it eventually it was stuck all the way up. So, I tried my first flipper rebuild today...bought a kit and swapped out the stuff in there (crank assembly, coil sleeve, EOS switch, spring) and it's doing the same thing. It does the same "stop in a different position," but now it even moves backwards (towards the player) and stops. Anyone ever encountered this?
I've tightened the bolt on the crank shaft to the point where I don't think the problem is that the flipper bat shaft is turning. There is some play for the flipper to move up and down. (Though I ballparked that based on the other flipper because I don't have a gauge.) How are flipper bats supposed to be attached to the shaft? I did have to push the bat back onto the shaft after I removed the flipper. Could the flipper itself be spinning while the shaft is not? Again, this is my first flipper rebuild, so I'm not super familiar with everything just yet.
Thanks!

I had a MB that did that. Turned out to be a broken flipper bat. The plastic head on the underside allowed the shaft to spin a bit. I too cranked down on the shaft to no avail, replaced the bat with another, and that solved my problem.

#2271 7 months ago
Quoted from PBaller22:

Junk Yard Flipper Question:
I encountered a problem where every time I hit the flipper button, the flipper would stop in a different position. It would go up slightly with each hit and stay there until it eventually it was stuck all the way up. So, I tried my first flipper rebuild today...bought a kit and swapped out the stuff in there (crank assembly, coil sleeve, EOS switch, spring) and it's doing the same thing. It does the same "stop in a different position," but now it even moves backwards (towards the player) and stops. Anyone ever encountered this?
I've tightened the bolt on the crank shaft to the point where I don't think the problem is that the flipper bat shaft is turning. There is some play for the flipper to move up and down. (Though I ballparked that based on the other flipper because I don't have a gauge.) How are flipper bats supposed to be attached to the shaft? I did have to push the bat back onto the shaft after I removed the flipper. Could the flipper itself be spinning while the shaft is not? Again, this is my first flipper rebuild, so I'm not super familiar with everything just yet.
Thanks!

Just see if you can move the flipper bat with your hands and watch the shaft in the mech at the same time. If the head is moving and not the shaft, that’s your issue. Replace the flipper bat and shaft. If the shaft moves too, you don’t have the pawl tightened on the shaft enough.

#2272 7 months ago

Hello, I am flipping through (pun slightly intended) this amazing thread trying to see if my question is already answered but so far havent had any luck.

Basically I bought a brand new flipper assembly from pinball life and the crank shaft seems to just barely make contact with the EOS switch. I have seen the term "adjust the eos" come up and I want to make sure whats the best technique in having the leaves closer to the crank shaft (I dont want to make a noobie mistake and have to buy a new switch). Should I gently use a plier and move the leaves closer while not bending them?

WhatsApp Image 2019-03-17 at 8.40.18 PM (resized).jpeg
#2273 7 months ago

Just push the switch blades closer to the actuator so it opens up the eos at the end of the flipper stroke.

#2274 7 months ago

On my Mata Hari I was testing a new EOS switch with a jumper and blew a 5 amp fuse on the rectifier board. Oops! I still can’t figure out why my left flipper is still a little weaker than the right one.

#2275 7 months ago
Quoted from phillyfan64:

On my Mata Hari I was testing a new EOS switch with a jumper and blew a 5 amp fuse on the rectifier board. Oops! I still can’t figure out why my left flipper is still a little weaker than the right one.

Correct coil? Take a picture and post here what the eos switch looks like when the flipper is engaged.

#2276 7 months ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Correct coil? Take a picture and post here what the eos switch looks like when the flipper is engaged.

Thanks. I’ll post one tonight when I get home.

#2277 7 months ago
Quoted from PBaller22:

Junk Yard Flipper Question:
I encountered a problem where every time I hit the flipper button, the flipper would stop in a different position. It would go up slightly with each hit and stay there until it eventually it was stuck all the way up. So, I tried my first flipper rebuild today...bought a kit and swapped out the stuff in there (crank assembly, coil sleeve, EOS switch, spring) and it's doing the same thing. It does the same "stop in a different position," but now it even moves backwards (towards the player) and stops. Anyone ever encountered this?
I've tightened the bolt on the crank shaft to the point where I don't think the problem is that the flipper bat shaft is turning. There is some play for the flipper to move up and down. (Though I ballparked that based on the other flipper because I don't have a gauge.) How are flipper bats supposed to be attached to the shaft? I did have to push the bat back onto the shaft after I removed the flipper. Could the flipper itself be spinning while the shaft is not? Again, this is my first flipper rebuild, so I'm not super familiar with everything just yet.
Thanks!

I have had that happen, the way I fixed it was to just keep adjusting on the set screws until it stopped doing it. Sometimes I had to tighten one down, and back off the other. This is with brand new flipper rebuilds and older flippers. What I did - apologies if you have already tried this - is loosen both set screws until the flipper would easily move by rotating it with your hand. Then adjust down from there, til the flipper stayed in it's idle position after activation.

Hope that makes sense

#2278 7 months ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Correct coil? Take a picture and post here what the eos switch looks like when the flipper is engaged.

Here’s the pictures. First is the weaker one. Just for the heck of it I measured resistance across the switches while in circuit. Around .4 ohms on the stronger one, 1.4 ohms on the weaker one. Coils are Bally originals and are both the same.

CD8ECE3A-0E62-4D83-9E25-67362785AB0E (resized).jpegB8C280C4-F608-43EB-A15B-A34E04C12F7D (resized).jpeg
#2279 7 months ago

Looks properly adjusted to me. Not sure why you had a fuse blow when you jumpered the eos. My only other suggestion is making sure the eos is getting consistent continuity. After that I’m out of ideas. Haha

#2280 7 months ago
Quoted from phillyfan64:

Just for the heck of it I measured resistance across the switches while in circuit. Around .4 ohms on the stronger one, 1.4 ohms on the weaker one

Desolder one lug of the switches and measure again

#2281 7 months ago

Thanks. It might be a few days before I can unsolder it. I’ll report back. As for the fuse, I think the alligator clip might have touched something metal other than the lugs. It’s not a big difference but I think there is a slight difference in power.

#2282 7 months ago

My overheating coil problem is resolved. It ended up being one or both of the diodes on the coil. That was a new coil, too.

There were two 4004's on the coil, I replaced them with 4007's. Additionally, I had to rewire that coil, moving the outer leaf wire to the power lug. The ground is now soldered to the same lug by itself, with the middle lug connected to the inner leaf.

Also, something I did not mention before, was that upon activation with the original diodes, no matter how I had it wired, when the flipper fired it did not give what I like to term as the lightning blast seen with flipper activation. It now does that.

Once again, thanks to all who tried to help me resolve this issue.

eta as an fyi

before I replaced the diodes on that coil, I moved that coil to the bottom flipper and it overheated there as well

#2283 7 months ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

I have had that happen, the way I fixed it was to just keep adjusting on the set screws until it stopped doing it. Sometimes I had to tighten one down, and back off the other. This is with brand new flipper rebuilds and older flippers. What I did - apologies if you have already tried this - is loosen both set screws until the flipper would easily move by rotating it with your hand. Then adjust down from there, til the flipper stayed in it's idle position after activation.
Hope that makes sense

Sort of...what do you mean by set screws? The bolt on the plunger and crank assembly?

#2284 7 months ago
Quoted from PBaller22:

Sort of...what do you mean by set screws? The bolt on the plunger and crank assembly?

Junkyard doesn’t have set screws. Don’t worry about it. Those are only in older flipper mechs. Yours just hase a bolt or nut that tightens the crank/pawl.

#2285 7 months ago

ok, thanks Chuckwurt, I didn't know that, but yes Pballer22 those are the screws I'm talking about

#2286 7 months ago

Just did my first de rebuild and the game feels new!
Now if I could just figure out why my no fear sticks with all new parts :/

#2287 7 months ago
Quoted from 2pupPinz:

I had a MB that did that. Turned out to be a broken flipper bat. The plastic head on the underside allowed the shaft to spin a bit. I too cranked down on the shaft to no avail, replaced the bat with another, and that solved my problem.

For curious minds and future searchers, my problem was a broken flipper bat. The shaft broke away from the flipper plastic in the inside and it was spinning independently. New flipper, problem solved. Thanks for all the help everyone.

#2288 7 months ago

vid1900, have you covered the difference between ~sys 11 flippers and WPC era? I gather that the Fliptronic design has put the EOS switch on the switch matrix, decoupling it from the high voltage line. (And Sega/DE copied this redesign, though their switches retain “normally closed” status.) I would love to read a breakdown of the fundamental differences between these systems. And, for the sake of dialing in flipper strength, with “normally open” switches, does the reverse setting apply - i.e., where sys 11 EOS wants to be closed until the last possible moment, Fliptronic should be gapped so that the very end of the stroke closes the switch?

Forgive me if I’m asking about something that has been covered within the thread...

#2289 7 months ago
Quoted from sethbenjamin:

vid1900, have you covered the difference between ~sys 11 flippers and WPC era? I gather that the Fliptronic design has put the EOS switch on the switch matrix, decoupling it from the high voltage line. (And Sega/DE copied this redesign, though their switches retain “normally closed” status.) I would love to read a breakdown of the fundamental differences between these systems. And, for the sake of dialing in flipper strength, with “normally open” switches, does the reverse setting apply - i.e., where sys 11 EOS wants to be closed until the last possible moment, Fliptronic should be fapped so them at the very end of the stroke closes the switch?
Forgive me if I’m asking about something that has been covered within the thread...

Fliptronics eos aren't part of the switch matrix per se, they have their own dedicated inputs. The eos shouldn't affect the strength either, just a set pulse length no matter what

#2290 7 months ago

Thank you vid1900! I followed your guide on page 6 of this topic - REBUILDING 1967-1979 FLIPPERS - rebuilding my Williams Flash flippers over the weekend. Everything went great but I had 1 question.

I had to order 2 new coils for the 2 right flippers since the sleeves would not come out of the old ones. Upon receiving them and installing them, I noticed that the original right side lower flipper coil had 2 diodes and the new coil only has one. Everything is working great, but wondered if I should worry or move that diode to the new coil? Should I worry - anything going to get damaged etc.???
coil (resized).jpg

#2291 7 months ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Fliptronics eos aren't part of the switch matrix per se, they have their own dedicated inputs. The eos shouldn't affect the strength either, just a set pulse length no matter what

Right, I'm misusing the term there, aren't I? So, owing to the fact that the switch is completely separated from the coil, the gap is now non-critical? Interesting.

#2292 7 months ago
Quoted from sethbenjamin:

Right, I'm misusing the term there, aren't I? So, owing to the fact that the switch is completely separated from the coil, the gap is now non-critical? Interesting.

Supposedly the switch is only used to keep the flipper up if a ball lands on it. It's hard to know exactly how they work though, since it's all logic in the code. Could have changed game to game for all we know, if unlikely.

Many of my wpc games didn't even have eos when I got them, they still played fine.

2 weeks later
#2293 7 months ago

Just did a rebuild of the lower flippers on RIBON, actually more like a replacement as I bought the assembled assemblies from PB. After the rebuild it's sort of like there is no low power, game works and flips fine, but when the ball hits the flipper with a bit of speed and the flipper fires again almost like a trampoline effect. I can pull the held flipper down by hand quite easily. It's happing with all 3 flippers (even the one I didn't swap) checked all the fuses in the game and there is power for the 20V at the board. Any suggestions on what to check next?

#2294 7 months ago

I'll be waiting on answer, but in mean time check flipper button leaf switch at cabinet.

#2295 7 months ago

Hey all,

Maybe I’m in the right place now...

I’m having an issue on my JJP POTC - specifically the upper play-field (Black Pearl) right flipper. It’s not flipping as high as the left. Maybe half as much.

I tried loosening the nut, allowing the flipper to rest and then retighten. To no avail, the flipper flips just as high as before. I have essentially accomplished nothing or very little.

Here’s the million dollar dilemma, this upper play-field has a metal bracket that the flippers rest on so I can’t possibly position it lower or really mess up the alignment.

I did read where after loosening this nut and having the ability to move the flipper freely it will expose another screw or something. I have not tried anything regarding this second revealed screw. I thought it said to hold that second screw in place with a hex or whatever while tightening the nut back.

Maybe that’s the missing piece to the puzzle?

There’s no way this is anywhere near as complicated as I’m making it out to be.

But I’m not having any success so far.

#2296 7 months ago

I can help with basic theory, but I have never worked on these flippers.

The flipper can only travel so far due to the length of the flipper plunger that goes into the coil, and the coil stop which rests on the other side of the coil and “stops” the flipper plunger when it engages.

If your flipper is traveling too high it’s because of three things:

1) At rest it sits higher than the other flipper. If the flipper is too high as rest, it will be too high when engaged.

2) if the flipper plunger is shorter than the other flipper it will travel higher because it will take longer for the flipper plunger to reach the coil stop. If your flippers are the same height at rest and one is traveling higher than the other, this could explain it.

3) if the coil stop is shorter than the other could stop. Same thinking as #2.

Good luck.

#2297 7 months ago

Check the JJPOTC thread. Pretty sure the right flipper in the Pearl is supposed to only half flip, in order to be able to hit the canon. There is a doc maintained in that thread for issues on that game.

#2298 7 months ago
Quoted from jfesler:

Check the JJPOTC thread. Pretty sure the right flipper in the Pearl is supposed to only half flip, in order to be able to hit the canon. There is a doc maintained in that thread for issues on that game.

Nope. They are supposed to flip evenly.

#2299 6 months ago

Very dumb question I'm sure but.. I've bought 3 flipper rebuild kits for my friend's Funhouse. I didn't realise you could change them to the newer style EOS spring rather than the compression spring on the plunger. He has got the old style bases - so no holes for the spring on the EOS plate.

Since I'm going to do all three is it worth me just buying the bases and converting them to the newer style?

Also, if I do this, do I have to re-install the yellow capacitors? Can I not just leave them off? (My TAF doesn't have them)

Thanks in advance.

#2300 6 months ago

You should be able to drill a small hole in the EOS plate. And hook your spring there. What kits did you buy?

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