(Topic ID: 18292)

VID's Guide to Upgrading/Rebuilding Flippers


By vid1900

7 years ago



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#2051 1 year ago

I need to rebuild flippers on a magic castle. What flipper kits get used with zaccaria gen 2 machines?

#2052 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

4. Make the contacts really close but not *that* close

How close? Adjust them until the slingshot machine guns, then back it off a bit?

#2053 1 year ago
Quoted from ajfclark:

How close? Adjust them until the slingshot machine guns, then back it off a bit?

Basically, if you want to get them as strong and active as possible. I get them so close I can't see the gap, then back up if they machine gun. Sometimes they just don't. Note though: I don't recommend this for games that will be unattended for long periods, especially on EMs, Gottlieb games thru sys80 and williams thru sys11, as if your adjustment goes a bit off they'll burn up. Games with software controlled slings like ballys are fine. That said, I've never had it happen on any of mine, even ones on location, but.

#2054 1 year ago

How many flips is a Williams flipper Mech good for before rebuilding?

I have over 600,000 on both left and right flippers , on several of my games and they seem to work pretty good. I have however changed out plungers and links at about the halfway point.

I'm thinking about changing the flipper bushings.

#2055 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballinreno:

How many flips is a Williams flipper Mech good for before rebuilding?
I have over 600,000 on both left and right flippers , on several of my games and they seem to work pretty good. I have however changed out plungers and links at about the halfway point.
I'm thinking about changing the flipper bushings.

The cleaner you keep your games, the longer the parts will wear.

All that black dust is pulverized metal.

Any **play** looses energy that should be transferred to the ball, so manually move your flippers around and see if the bushings are still solid.

#2056 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Basically, if you want to get them as strong and active as possible. I get them so close I can't see the gap, then back up if they machine gun.

Yep, every time you change to a new brand of rubber, you should reset the switch gaps.

Any time you replace a plastic post, make sure you hold the post towards the switches as you tighten; because if the post moves latter on, it may make the slingshot machine-gun.

1 week later
#2057 1 year ago

Rookie question I'm sure, during my rebuild I'm finding the coil sleeves I have are too long to allow the coil stop to be mounted back. Do I just try to trim this? Tips on how?

nevermind i'm an idiot, if i flip it round theres actually clearance for it to go out towards the plunger side.

#2058 1 year ago

Flip it around. Butt end to the stop.

#2059 1 year ago

When trying to replace a pop bumper coil sleeve I found that one of the nuts holding the bracket in place under the playfield just turns endlessly. Am guessing the threads on the screw are stripped. Anyone know the easiest way to get it off? I could cut it out with a dremel, but the area is tight and I’d rather not disassemble everything around it. Also, the nut is flush with the playfield and I’d be worried about causing damage. Would heat or cold help to get it started? Thanks for any ideas.

#2060 1 year ago
Quoted from Spelunk71:

When trying to replace a pop bumper coil sleeve I found that one of the nuts holding the bracket in place under the playfield just turns endlessly. Am guessing the threads on the screw are stripped. Anyone know the easiest way to get it off? I could cut it out with a dremel, but the area is tight and I’d rather not disassemble everything around it. Also, the nut is flush with the playfield and I’d be worried about causing damage. Would heat or cold help to get it started? Thanks for any ideas.

You have to put tension on it, while you turn it.

I can't figure out what part you are talking about from your description, but for most stripped nut jobs, I'd use a pair of Needle Nose Vise-Grips

Pull while turning to get it started.

Lefty loosey

Best $5 you ever spent:

https://www.harborfreight.com/6-in-long-nose-locking-pliers-63870.html

63870_I (resized).jpg
#2061 1 year ago

Thanks for the tip! I’ll give that a shot.

2 weeks later
#2062 1 year ago

Vid, I'm considering attempting a conversion of my Black Knight to 50V flippers, do you have any idea what 50V coil would be the equivalent of the stock coils, or maybe just a bit more oomph? I'm hoping to get it to go up the ramps easier but not so strong as to really stand out.

#2063 1 year ago

You don't need 50V flippers to make it up the ramp. Either rebuild yours or upgrade to these @ pinball life:

Full Flipper Assembly For Williams/Bally Machines From 02/1992 To 10/1998
a-15205-r-2_a-15205-l-2
Options:
Choose A Base Plate : Left
Choose A Coil : SFL-19-400/30-750
Choose a Coil Stop : A-12111 (+1%)
Choose An EOS Switch : 03-7811 Normally Closed EOS (+5%)

I've done this with my system 7 machines when needed and they are near perfect. My BK hits the left ramp from a trap with no problems. And it only takes 5 minutes to install. Can't imagine the hacks you'd need for 50V.

#2064 1 year ago
Quoted from Black_Knight:

You don't need 50V flippers to make it up the ramp. Either rebuild yours or upgrade to these @ pinball life:
Full Flipper Assembly For Williams/Bally Machines From 02/1992 To 10/1998
a-15205-r-2_a-15205-l-2
Options:
Choose A Base Plate : Left
Choose A Coil : SFL-19-400/30-750
Choose a Coil Stop : A-12111 (+1%)
Choose An EOS Switch : 03-7811 Normally Closed EOS (+5%)
I've done this with my system 7 machines when needed and they are near perfect. My BK hits the left ramp from a trap with no problems. And it only takes 5 minutes to install. Can't imagine the hacks you'd need for 50V.

My flippers are already fully rebuilt originals. I don't like the feel of the newer style mechs in these games (a friend has them in theirs). My BK is the fastest I've played, but it doesn't feel satisfying as the ball just limps over the ramps and coasts slowly across the upper playfield. I can't just wing a ball at a ramp on the fly and expect it to get up every time. I also like my BK nice and steep, every other one I play is way too floaty and is just boring to play.

Steve Ritchie has said before that we wanted to have 50V flippers in BK, but they weren't ready yet, so I'd like to see how it compares. I already have a spare 50V small transformer from a newer williams game that had 50V flippers, so all I need to do is get two new coils and feed that 50V to them, nice and clean.

#2065 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Vid, I'm considering attempting a conversion of my Black Knight to 50V flippers, do you have any idea what 50V coil would be the equivalent of the stock coils, or maybe just a bit more oomph? I'm hoping to get it to go up the ramps easier but not so strong as to really stand out.

You could try replacing all the contact points in the path from transformer to coil. There are at least 20 contact points in the path, each 38 year old contact point is taking a small toll (some could be taking a large toll).

Bridge rectifier spade connectors - 4 (remove spades and solder)
Power board connectors - 4 (replace wafer connectors and pins, replace header pins, replace IDC with Trufuricon crimp-on)
C13 on the power board (not a contact point but it provides surge power for the flippers and solenoids)
Driver board connectors - 2 (J10 and J13 - replace header pins, replace IDC with Trufuricon crimp-on)
Fuse holder clips - 2 (replace clips, new shiny fuse)
Cabinet switches - 1
EOS switch - 1
Molex connectors between cabinet, playfield and backbox - 8 or so (re-pin with new molex pins)

Most people focus on the cabinet switches and EOS but these others can be a problem as well.

#2066 1 year ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

You could try replacing all the contact points in the path from transformer to coil. There are at least 20 contact points in the path, each 38 year old contact point is taking a small toll (some could be taking a large toll).
Bridge rectifier spade connectors - 4 (remove spades and solder)
Power board connectors - 4 (replace wafer connectors and pins, replace header pins, replace IDC with Trufuricon crimp-on)
C13 on the power board (not a contact point but it provides surge power for the flippers and solenoids)
Driver board connectors - 2 (J10 and J13 - replace header pins, replace IDC with Trufuricon crimp-on)
Fuse holder clips - 2 (replace clips, new shiny fuse)
Cabinet switches - 1
EOS switch - 1
Molex connectors between cabinet, playfield and backbox - 8 or so (re-pin with new molex pins)
Most people focus on the cabinet switches and EOS but these others can be a problem as well.

Bridge rectifier replaced and soldered, power and driver board repinned, capacitors replaced (even experimented with stronger caps), fuse holders replaced, cab and eos switches replaced. Don't have the tool to remove the inline connectors but I ohmed them out and they were all low and I tried jumpering past them without any change. Like I said, it's the fastest BK I've played, but I'm not satisfied. I want to play it the way it was intended.

#2067 1 year ago

I just found out I have resistors or my classic Stern - Catacomb. They are not connected.

How much difference do they make to power of flippers?

What do people recommend? Going to rebuild but should I connect these?

Will it increase chance of drop targets breaking if not? Just read something to that effect.

Never rebuilt classic Stern before and do not know what these resistors do, other than read they reduce power?

Thanks

IMG_3860 (resized).jpg
#2068 1 year ago

That is a capacitor, a disc capacitor, to be more exact. I looked it up and found that it is used as a spark suppressor, presumably to lengthen the life of the EOS contacts.

#2069 1 year ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

How much difference do they make to power of flippers?
What do people recommend? Going to rebuild but should I connect these?

I now enter, with trepidation, the realm of limited knowledge. What the hee haw, someone will correct me if I get it wrong!

There should be no effect or negligible effect on how ‘powerful’ the flippers are. I would reconnect the capacitor, but first I would test it with a DMM to make sure that it is still good. Not all DMMs can test capacitors, so your DMM, if you own one, may not have this function. Or you could just install a new disc capacitor across the EOS switch - they are cheap. I keep some disc capacitors on hand and are handy when I need one for a switch. You will need to to read the printing on the cap and learn what it means for the right replacement.

#2070 1 year ago
Quoted from Pecos:

I now enter, with trepidation, the realm of limited knowledge. What the hee haw, someone will correct me if I get it wrong!
There should be no effect or negligible effect on how ‘powerful’ the flippers are. I would reconnect the capacitor, but first I would test it with a DMM to make sure that it is still good. Not all DMMs can test capacitors, so your DMM, if you own one, may not have this function. Or you could just install a new disc capacitor across the EOS switch - they are cheap. I keep some disc capacitors on hand and are handy when I need one for a switch. You will need to to read the printing on the cap and learn what it means for the right replacement.

Interesting. Thanks.

It just says 103 on it - no clue what that means!

#2071 1 year ago

103 should mean 10 x 1,000 picofarads or 10,000 picofarads.

https://www.petervis.com/electronics/Ceramic_Disc_Capacitor_Values/Ceramic_Disc_Capacitor_Values.html

Disc capacitors may also be sold in microfarads. Don’t confuse the two. Converting 10,000 picofarads to microfarads yields .01 microfarads.

Don’t use commas. It seems to cornfuse the calculator.

http://www.unit-conversion.info/capacitance.html

There is usually a letter after the number signifying the tolerance. Do you see one on that cap or the cap on the other flipper?

#2072 1 year ago

Nothing else on them.

Going guess that they work so just wondering why people disconnect them?

#2073 1 year ago

shapeshifter, that cap may not be original. I don’t see it on the flipper wiring diagram, page 22 of the manual. You might want to ask over at the Catacomb Club. Oh, I see that you already have. Never mind.

#2074 1 year ago
Quoted from Pecos:

shapeshifter, that cap may not be original. I don’t see it on the flipper wiring diagram, page 22 of the manual. You might want to ask over at the Catacomb Club. Oh, I see that you already have. Never mind.

Thanks - will wait for some Catacomb owners to chime in before fixing it back on.

#2075 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Vid, I'm considering attempting a conversion of my Black Knight to 50V flippers, do you have any idea what 50V coil would be the equivalent of the stock coils, or maybe just a bit more oomph? I'm hoping to get it to go up the ramps easier but not so strong as to really stand out.

My flippers are already fully rebuilt originals. I don't like the feel of the newer style mechs in these games (a friend has them in theirs). My BK is the fastest I've played, but it doesn't feel satisfying as the ball just limps over the ramps and coasts slowly across the upper playfield.

Quoted from zacaj:

I want to play it the way it was intended.

That's the way SR designed it.

Just like the game Comet of the same era. You have to have the trajectory perfect to hit the steep Cycle Jump and long Corkscrew ramp. Those are not shots you can make every time.

Here is Karl DeAngelo (one of the best players in the world), playing on a properly pitched, rebuilt game @PAPA:

#2077 1 year ago
Quoted from vid1900:

That's the way SR designed it.

That's not what what the designer says.

Also, after playing at papa and talking with their techs, I have no confidence that any or their games are rebuilt, let alone properly, or that they're the arbiter of what a properly maintained game is.

The flippers on that look weak, and it's floaty as hell. If a BK plays like that I'd rather not play. Mine makes the ramps better than that and it's raked.

Not to mention, half this thread is about installing new mechs on games that weren't 'designed' for them. What I'm attempting to do is more in line than any of that

#2078 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

That's not what what the designer says.
Also, after playing at papa and talking with their techs, I have no confidence that any or their games are rebuilt, let alone properly, or that they're the arbiter of what a properly maintained game is.
The flippers on that look weak, and it's floaty as hell. If a BK plays like that I'd rather not play. Mine makes the ramps better than that and it's raked.
Not to mention, half this thread is about installing new mechs on games that weren't 'designed' for them. What I'm attempting to do is more in line than any of that

I hear ya.

I've watched Steve play BK at expo and he does not say "Wow, this game needs 50v flippers...." he simply kills on that game.

If you want, put a pair of FL11630 coils and a flipper power supply board, but it won't play as the master intended.
,
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/C-9939

SR@SK party (resized).jpg
#2079 1 year ago
Quoted from vid1900:

The Flipper Bushing is what keeps the flipper from dragging on the playfield and ruining it.
When you see games with two "angel wings" carved into the playfield in front of the flippers, you know nobody ever replaced the Bushings.
We, of course, ALWAYS replace the Bushings when rebuilding the flippers.
Even if the flippers are not dragging on the playfield (yet), they will often have too much play because the Bushing holes have become worn.
Remove the 3 nuts and the Bushing will pull right out.

Never seen shank screws used for older games, but it sounds in theory to be a nice option to avoid the constant problem with loose bushing screws, especially on those Williams EMs sporting DC flippers; my only concern with this method - would the screw heads show on the P/F?

#2080 1 year ago
Quoted from Dono:

Never seen shank screws used for older games, but it sounds in theory to be a nice option to avoid the constant problem with loose bushing screws, especially on those Williams EMs sporting DC flippers; my only concern with this method - would the screw heads show on the P/F?

Yes, the heads show through the playfield.

Williams abandoned them in the late 70s.

They had a "bounce back" loose feel compared to the unified baseplate that came after.

#2081 1 year ago

Dear vid1900 and other Forum members,
I am starting a homebrew pinball experiment.
I have two decent stern single wound coil flippers, is there a way to replace the 0900-5032-ND coils with double wound coils(and replace EOS) , so I can hardware the flipper buttons?
Otherwise I will have to build a PMW control circuit.

Thank you for your support.
Dorus

IMG_9320 (resized).JPG

1 week later
#2082 1 year ago

Just picked up a Black Knight which has rebuilt flippers. None of the four flippers has a rubber cushion mounted where the plunger rests. Shouldn't it have one for the hardware to rest on? I picked up some today at my hardware store designed for a vehicle that fit perfectly. Second photo attached. With the rubber "snubber" installed, I just need to adjust the flipper at rest.

20180807_213610 (resized).jpg20180807_213636 (resized).jpg
#2083 1 year ago
Quoted from epeabs:

Just picked up a Black Knight which has rebuilt flippers. None of the four flippers has a rubber cushion mounted where the plunger rests. Shouldn't it have one for the hardware to rest on? I picked up some today at my hardware store designed for a vehicle that fit perfectly. Second photo attached. With the rubber "snubber" installed, I just need to adjust the flipper at rest.
[quoted image][quoted image]

The diagram in the parts manual doesn't show anything. I've never seen a mech from that era with a bumper

#2084 1 year ago

I have to pick up a complete manual. I only have several pages that came with the machine. Thank you. First system 7 I have owned.

#2086 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

The diagram in the parts manual doesn't show anything. I've never seen a mech from that era with a bumper

My BK didn't have any either. Nor did my Firepower. I replaced the entire flipper mech on both machines (only lowers on BK) with the setup from Pinball Life on Vid's recommendation. I think they have the rubber stopper in place.

The question is, does it make any difference to how the flipper works? I figure it will reduce vibration that would get sent back through all of the components which in turn reduces wear and tear.

#2087 1 year ago
Quoted from dzorbas:

My BK didn't have any either. Nor did my Firepower. I replaced the entire flipper mech on both machines (only lowers on BK) with the setup from Pinball Life on Vid's recommendation. I think they have the rubber stopper in place.
The question is, does it make any difference to how the flipper works? I figure it will reduce vibration that would get sent back through all of the components which in turn reduces wear and tear.

It's going to affect the stroke height of the flippers. The modern mechs might be adjusted to compensate already though.

#2088 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

The diagram in the parts manual doesn't show anything. I've never seen a mech from that era with a bumper

Williams # 23-6577 Rubber Bumper Plug

https://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=276

#2089 1 year ago

It's not in the parts manual for that kind of mech though, so it shouldn't be installed

#2090 1 year ago
Quoted from Dorus:

I have two decent stern single wound coil flippers, is there a way to replace the 0900-5032-ND coils with double wound coils(and replace EOS) , so I can hardware the flipper buttons?
s

Sure, you can use any coil you want.

Just match the voltage (28 or 50V) and copy any circuit from a Williams game schematic.

#2091 1 year ago
Quoted from dzorbas:

My BK didn't have any either. Nor did my Firepower. I replaced the entire flipper mech on both machines (only lowers on BK) with the setup from Pinball Life on Vid's recommendation. I think they have the rubber stopper in place.

The question is, does it make any difference to how the flipper works? I figure it will reduce vibration that would get sent back through all of the components which in turn reduces wear and tear.

It changes the range of the flipper stroke.

Pull the rubber from one of them, and then look at the topside of the playfield to see how much range is gained from the other.

#2092 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

It's going to affect the stroke height of the flippers. The modern mechs might be adjusted to compensate already though.

Quoted from vid1900:

It changes the range of the flipper stroke.
Pull the rubber from one of them, and then look at the topside of the playfield to see how much range is gained from the other.

Thanks to all who have chimed in on this. I just adjusted the flipper that I had tried with the rubber to sit on the adjustment hole. Then compared at full stroke to the other flipper to find that it does restrict the range of the stroke. I just removed it and will leave it with no rubber. Putting the question to bed.

#2093 1 year ago
Quoted from epeabs:

. I just adjusted the flipper that I had tried with the rubber to sit on the adjustment hole. Then compared at full stroke to the other flipper to find that it does restrict the range of the stroke.

Of course.

It's the same trick as putting a bigger coil stop in the flippers.

Without making any obvious topside change, the operator has made the game more difficult.

#2094 1 year ago

Is it safe to install this capacitor on an EOS (FL-11630 coil)? 4.7 µF, 250 V. Game is a Taxi.

The picture on the website where I ordered the part was the "flat" yellow capacitor but I received this one instead. Just want to make sure it' fine before using it

Thanks!

edit: actually I noticed that I bought a spare 2.2 µF 250V capacitor with a previous order, might be safer to go with this one.

20180810_111013 (resized).jpg

#2095 1 year ago

^ it's weird that they sent you a used capacitor from a company that has been gone a long time.

I think Vishay bought ERO back in the 90s...

#2096 1 year ago
Quoted from vid1900:

^ it's weird that they sent you a used capacitor from a company that has been gone a long time.
I think Vishay bought ERO back in the 90s...

Used? I'm surprised, but I'll take your word for it! Anyway, I didn't end up using it.

I partly rebuilt my Taxi's right flipper because the F5 fuse kept blowing after a few minutes of playing (10-15 minutes). After doing some research and asking around on Pinside, it seemed like the issue was most likely due to the EOS. So I replaced the EOS for a new one. While I was at it, I figured I might as well replace the coil and capacitor as well. I first had hope I fixed the issue after being able to play for almost 40 minutes, but the fuse blew again the next day.

Although I spent a lot of time adjusting the EOS with my brand new leaf adjuster, I tried readjusting it. No luck, the fuse blew again. I strictly followed the same wiring as before (had the game with the right flipper working properly for years before that). I also traced back the wiring inside the cabinet but my rookie's eyes didn't see anything suspect.

Any idea what the issue could be? I attached some pics in case it can help. I'm puzzled to say the least.

20180812_203851 (resized).jpg20180812_204604 (resized).jpg20180812_204619 (resized).jpg
#2097 1 year ago

^ Your cap should have some insulation on the leads to keep it from shorting out the circuit. You can use some Romex insulation from house wiring, or just some aquarium airline tubing.

Diodes themselves could be flaky or cracked.

#2098 1 year ago
Quoted from vid1900:

^ Your cap should have some insulation on the leads to keep it from shorting out the circuit. You can use some Romex insulation from house wiring, or just some aquarium airline tubing.
Diodes themselves could be flaky or cracked.

I'll try insulating the cap! The cap from the previous setup didn't have insulation too though and it worked for years. Hopefully it's just that, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's more to it.

The coil I installed is brand new. What are the odds both the previous coil and the new one has a faulty diode? I'm not a soldering wizard, could I have possibly done something wrong when soldering that would have damaged the diodes? Like overheating for example? I have to cut one leg off each diode to test them properly, right?

#2099 1 year ago

Does anyone happen to have a parts list for rebuilding this Flipper Power Supply??

https://ksarcade.net/williams-flipper-power-supply-system-9-11-c-9939.html

#2100 1 year ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Sure, you can use any coil you want.
Just match the voltage (28 or 50V) and copy any circuit from a Williams game schematic.

Thank you for your help! I have changed it to a williams "Red" FL11-630 50V coil and changed the EOS switch. And... it works really well.
Regards
Dorus

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