VID's Guide to Upgrading/Rebuilding Flippers

(Topic ID: 18292)

VID's Guide to Upgrading/Rebuilding Flippers


By vid1900

6 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 2,044 posts
  • 353 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 15 hours ago by Pintor
  • Topic is favorited by 959 Pinsiders
  • Topic is sticky in its sub-forum

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 463 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

000-pha01 (resized).jpg
3508154E-4F08-4067-AC1F-3E4711611D2E (resized).jpeg
981185FD-FE4A-4FDC-8EBB-7BE51A6DC31D (resized).jpeg
61E8902A-E096-431A-BC6A-7FB2E190C06A (resized).jpeg
82BBF588-E048-4627-8A56-29FC933D3C5C (resized).jpeg
7D59937E-C1E2-47E8-9D29-0555BD9C9858 (resized).jpeg
atlan-flip (resized).jpg
atlantis (resized).jpg
flipper (resized).JPG
ejacobair (resized).jpg
image_16077 (resized).jpg
15224314707856999244523836388731 (resized).jpg
DSCF6501 (resized).JPG
DSCF6499 (resized).JPG
20180215_193500 (resized).jpg
20180215_193449 (resized).jpg

Topic index (key posts)

14 key posts have been marked in this topic (Show topic index)

There are 2048 posts in this topic. You are on page 40 of 41.
#1951 5 months ago

Hi everyone, basic question, do I need low voltage or high voltage EOS switches for Funhouse?

Thanks,
Karen

#1952 5 months ago
Quoted from membername:

Hi everyone, basic question, do I need low voltage or high voltage EOS switches for Funhouse?
Thanks,
Karen

I used high voltage on the rebuild I did.

#1953 5 months ago
Quoted from membername:

Hi everyone, basic question, do I need low voltage or high voltage EOS switches for Funhouse?
Thanks,
Karen

High voltage until around Addams family with fliptronic

1 week later
#1954 4 months ago

Hi guys, need advice/help on a flipper rebuild project I did. Flipper rebuild kit from PBL installed on Williams Travel Time.

Problems:
- Need more cowbell. Not much power seemed to be added after the rebuild. I verified the correct coils were installed.
- Buzzing noise from both flippers during cradle.

Questions:
- There is some play in the coil, both laterally and longitudinally. i.e. I can rotate the coil a little bit, and I can move it a tiny bit lengthwise. Is this an “issue”? Is the solenoid assembly not being locked down tight robbing my flippers of power?

- Do coils just “go bad” or get weak over time? Should I replace them, or is this a waste of time and money?

- Do old EM games have naturally weaker flippers (am I expecting too much)?

- Where should I look for the cause of the buzzing noise? What is the best way to get rid of this?

Thanks in advance for any input!

#1955 4 months ago
Quoted from AAAV8R:

Do coils just “go bad” or get weak over time?

Bad/fail yes, weak no.

Try adjusting the EOS switch so that it’s barely open at flipper full stroke.

Quoted from AAAV8R:

Do old EM games have naturally weaker flippers (am I expecting too much)?

Not that I’ve seen. They are pretty effing strong. Especially on my Williams EM.

#1956 4 months ago
Quoted from AAAV8R:

Where should I look for the cause of the buzzing noise? What is the best way to get rid of this?

It's normal.

Quoted from AAAV8R:There is some play in the coil, both laterally and longitudinally. i.e. I can rotate the coil a little bit, and I can move it a tiny bit lengthwise. Is this an “issue”? Is the solenoid assembly not being locked down tight robbing my flippers of power?

Mine always have a bit of wiggle.

#1957 4 months ago
Quoted from AAAV8R:

- Where should I look for the cause of the buzzing noise? What is the best way to get rid of this?

The buzz is vibration. A little is unavoidable, but the less movement you have, the less buzz you will have.

This ties in to another of your questions:

Quoted from AAAV8R:

- There is some play in the coil, both laterally and longitudinally. i.e. I can rotate the coil a little bit, and I can move it a tiny bit lengthwise. Is this an “issue”? Is the solenoid assembly not being locked down tight robbing my flippers of power?

If you watch the flipper coils when you activate them while loose, they rotate - that energy could be going into the flipper plunger instead.

I've not played with a Williams EM, but I assume the setup of the coil brackets will be similar to Gottlieb? The bracket on one end of the coil has oval holes and the other has fixed holes?

I've tried just squeezing the brackets in as I tighten, but I've never had much success getting them tight - especially if they are still mounted on the playfield.

Instead, I loosely screw in the fixed bracket. I then loosely screw in the bracket with the oval holes. I remove the fixed bracket and slide the bracket with the oval holes in a 1/32" or so and tighten it up. I then squeeze the coil and get the fixed bracket in place. I end up with no movement along the plunger axis at all and usually no rotation. Buzz is almost gone and the coil doesn't move when the flipper activates.

#1958 4 months ago
Quoted from AAAV8R:

Do coils just “go bad” or get weak over time?

Nope.

Unless they burn out completely, they will be good forever.

Quoted from AAAV8R:

Where should I look for the cause of the buzzing noise? What is the best way to get rid of this?

Buzzing is loose something, or cockeyed something.

Squeeze both brackets towards each other, so there is no play.

You may have to loosen the front bracket.

0701a8203727f4ed96d1434be8f356f0673c2f97 (resized).jpg

#1959 4 months ago
Quoted from membername:

Hi everyone, basic question, do I need low voltage or high voltage EOS switches for Funhouse?

@vid1900 is it safe to always assume the type of EOS switch based on where the wires go?

i.e. Wires from EOS to coil = high voltage usually closed EOS whereas wires from EOS to elsewhere = low voltage usually open EOS

#1960 4 months ago
Quoted from ajfclark:

vid1900 is it safe to always assume the type of EOS switch based on where the wires go?
i.e. Wires from EOS to coil = high voltage usually closed EOS whereas wires from EOS to elsewhere = low voltage usually open EOS

That's one way to look at it, sure.

1 week later
#1961 4 months ago

Hello i just picked up a pinball magic and need help. The left flipper has always been waek even replaced the coil. But i saw the pics that the eos switch is normally closed and when the flipper is engaged should be open. But on my PM when the flipper is engaged just pushes it close more idk if its normal for this machine or if this would even cause the flipper to be weak. Any help would be great thanks!

#1962 4 months ago
Quoted from Pball1001:

Hello i just picked up a pinball magic and need help. The left flipper has always been waek even replaced the coil. But i saw the pics that the eos switch is normally closed and when the flipper is engaged should be open. But on my PM when the flipper is engaged just pushes it close more idk if its normal for this machine or if this would even cause the flipper to be weak. Any help would be great thanks!

Old flippers use the opening of the EOS to take the power winding out of the circuit. These are high voltage switches, directly connected to the coil that are normally closed. They open when the flipper reaches its limit of travel, which switches the coil to only using the hold winding.

Newer style flippers (from around 1992?) use the MPU to control whether the flipper coil is at full power or holding. These are low voltage, normally open switches. The EOS on these closes when the flipper is at the limit of its travel, signalling to the system to decrease the power to the coil/change to the hold winding. The system will also change/decrease if the flipper button is held down but the EOS never closes, preventing the coil from burning if the switch is misaligned, missing, broken, etc.

The Pinball Magic is the latter. The manual lists SW00127, a normally open switch which should only close when the flipper is at the limit of travel. If it's closing early, the flipper will be weak because the system is prematurely cutting the power to the coil.

#1963 4 months ago
Quoted from Pball1001:

. But on my PM when the flipper is engaged just pushes it close more idk if its normal for this machine or if this would even cause the flipper to be weak. Any help would be great thanks!

Do you have a photo. It sounds like someone may have installed the leaf switch upside down... longer leaf needs to be away from the flipper piece that pushes it from the shorter leaf to separate them... or maybe the wrong kind of leaf switch if both leaves are the same length. Compare it to the one that's working...what looks different?

Note I only have old style flippers. Based on what ajfckark posted it would be opposite to mine

#1964 4 months ago

Secound picture is the flipper engrized

20180130_160553 (resized).jpg
20180130_160618 (resized).jpg

#1965 4 months ago
Quoted from Pball1001:

Secound picture is the flipper engrized

Looks to me like Leaf switch is upside down, but I only have old style flippers normally closed that open at end of flipper swing.

If it's supposed to be normally open and then close at end of swing then it looks ok.

#1966 4 months ago
Quoted from Pball1001:

Secound picture is the flipper engrized

And how does that compare to the other flipper that works fine?

#1967 4 months ago

The leaf switch alignment is correct here. You opening is more open than mine, so I would just try adjusting it more away from the arm.
I assume you already checked the sleeve and bushing? Is there a little play on the flipper bat can still move just a touch up and down?

#1968 4 months ago

It does have some play up and down witch the right one does not. Is that whats causing the weakness?

#1969 4 months ago
Quoted from Pball1001:

It does have some play up and down witch the right one does not. Is that whats causing the weakness?

No it would usually be the other way around. Sometimes the the bat is cranked down super hard with no up and down play (just a little wiggles worth) it won't be at 100%.

#1970 4 months ago

Don’t some games have normally open EOS switches? This appears to be one.

#1971 4 months ago

you can close the switch with your fingers to test if it's supposed to flip normally closed (see if it solves the weak flip issue) or just read the manual.

#1972 4 months ago

You can tell this is a low power EOS since the coil only has one winding. The driver board is pulsing current to the coil during hold. I'm not fammilar with the Capcom flipper driver circuit but it wouldn't hurt to adjust that low power switch so that it closes at the last bit of pawl travel.

1 week later
#1973 4 months ago

Started a related weak flipper thread for my Gottlieb Amazing Spiderman, outside this general topic if anyone wants to contribute. Thanks! Stephen

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-amazing-spiderman-flippers-weak#post-4217062

#1974 4 months ago

Question since we’re on weak flippers.

I rebuilt a funhouse set of flippers with all new parts. Mid game last night the left flipper got really weak.

We jumpered the EOS closed and still weak.

Could it be the yellow cap? Something board related? Game probably has a couple thousand plays since rebuild. Everything is smooth, no binding.

#1975 4 months ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Question since we’re on weak flippers.
I rebuilt a funhouse set of flippers with all new parts. Mid game last night the left flipper got really weak.
We jumpered the EOS closed and still weak.
Could it be the yellow cap? Something board related? Game probably has a couple thousand plays since rebuild. Everything is smooth, no binding.

If the EOS was jumpered shut, the yellow cap was not in the circuit (it is wired in parallel with the EOS contacts, that were closed), so that's not it.

Maybe the coil warmed up and caused some binding?

Cabinet switch contacts dirty?

Bad diode on the coil?

Bad coil?

#1976 4 months ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Maybe the coil warmed up and caused some binding?

We noticed this after further testing. Since everything is brand new but the coil we are gonna replace that and see what happens. Thanks for the ideas.

We tried all your other ideas so far. Well I haven’t tested the diodes on the coil yet. But won’t matter if a new coil fixes it. Haha

#1977 4 months ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

We noticed this after further testing. Since everything is brand new but the coil we are gonna replace that and see what happens. Thanks for the ideas.
We tried all your other ideas so far. Well I haven’t tested the diodes on the coil yet. But won’t matter if a new coil fixes it. Haha

Did both left flippers go weak?

Another thought might be cold solder joints on the header pins on the power supply board. Power and ground for the left and right flippers comes through separate pins on the J109 and J110 in the driver board.

#1978 4 months ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Did both left flippers go weak?
Another thought might be cold solder joints on the header pins on the power supply board. Power for the left and right flippers comes through separate pins on the power supply board.

Other two flippers were fine. No issues.

#1979 4 months ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Other two flippers were fine. No issues.

I'd swap the coils around then and see if the problem moves with the coil or stays put.

If it moves, it's the coil.

if it stays put, it's something else.

If it disappears entirely it was the soldering, mount, alignment of the coil, etc.

#1980 4 months ago
Quoted from ajfclark:

I'd swap the coils around then and see if the problem moves with the coil or stays put.
If it moves, it's the coil.
if it stays put, it's something else.
If it disappears entirely it was the soldering, mount, alignment of the coil, etc.

Coming back to it next day, it was nice and strong. Got weak as play went on. Gonna replace coil and replace other parts if deemed necessary. Thanks!

#1981 4 months ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Coming back to it next day, it was nice and strong. Got weak as play went on. Gonna replace coil and replace other parts if deemed necessary. Thanks!

I'd also check the resistance of the coil.

#1982 4 months ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Coming back to it next day, it was nice and strong. Got weak as play went on. Gonna replace coil and replace other parts if deemed necessary. Thanks!

Flippers are stageable right? I'd clean the flipper button contact

#1983 4 months ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Flippers are stageable right? I'd clean the flipper button contact

Did that with no change. I’ll report back once we put a new coil in.

#1984 4 months ago

This has been discussed before, but I have no idea where in the thread. Here is my question.

Is there any benefit to using the 2.2 uf caps on the series coils? is it safe to do? My High Speed has FL23/600-30 coils that seem to be healthy yet. I did rebuild the upper flipper with a 11630 coil. I know the caps are used with parallel coils. Series too?

#1985 4 months ago

So I started reading the thread from the beginning and only had to go to post #60 to answer my question. The caps will NOT be used with my 2 remaining series coils.

Quoted from vid1900:The games that use series wound coils did not have the caps. I think the first game that used caps and parallel coils was F-14 Tomcat (1987), but don't quote me on that.

So, no need for caps on your game. If you ever burn up a coil (or it overheated and you can't remove the Coil Sleeve), you can flip the wiring and use a Parallel coil. This will make your EOS Switch last longer, and you will then add the cap.

#1986 4 months ago

Vid, am I good on this wiring. First time switching over to new style in a old stern. I just wanted to make sure.

20180215_193449 (resized).jpg

20180215_193500 (resized).jpg

#1987 4 months ago

Posting just because I thought this was a cool flipper rebuild. It's my High Speed, which comes with series coils and conical springs. In order to use an extension spring and have a place to mount the big yellow cap associated with parallel coils, I had to ditch the original bases and go with these. They were from my parts Transporter PF. It got a little busy in there with the large switch stack, big cap, extention spring, but just taking my time it came out good. Looking forward to trying this out soon.

DSCF6499 (resized).JPG

DSCF6501 (resized).JPG

#1988 4 months ago

I got as far as page eight when I then realized there were 32 more to go so, hopefully, this hasn't been mentioned too many times:

To help with setting the gap between the EOS switches, I have been using a leaf offset gage set for the past few years and it's wonderful.

Something like this:
https://www.craftsman.com/products/craftsman-26-leaf-offset-gauge

$5-$15 and definitely worth it.

#1989 4 months ago

I learned a good lesson this weekend in rebuilding my Williams SW:E1 flippers - make sure the flipper pawl stays relatively parallel to the mounting plate after inserting the flipper shaft into it and while tightening it. Since the pawl is on a hinge, it has a tendency to droop while inserting the flipper shaft especially while tightening the pawl nut. If it is drooping and it is tightened, it has a tendency to turn the flipper at a very slight angle which can cause low power and slow return.

#1990 3 months ago

Vid (or anyone else), I'm stumped. Friend of mine brought me his Gorgar which had a locked up right flipper. Both flippers were recently rebuilt WPC style with all new parts.

Upon lifting the playfield, I found the plunger physically stuck in an obviously cooked coil. I determined that the coil became cooked by an improperly gapped EOS switch that was never opening. So, I adjusted the leafs, installed a new coil and played a few games. Although the game played flawlessly, I decided to check the coils. The left coil was warm to the touch as I would expect. The right coil was BLAZING hot. Even the coil stop and bracket were feeling the heat.

At first I thought, well maybe the EOS switch was wired backwards, so I let it cool down and switched the wires around, but the same results were had. In fact, it shouldn't even matter which wires go to which EOS blade on this game since the coil has the same windings for power and hold (1 ohm) and simply gets halved when you open the EOS switch.

So now I'm stumped. The work done on the flipper upgrade looks good to me and no different than ones I've done myself. The flipper shaft is properly gapped, perfectly play, no binding, good spring reaction, etc.

So why the heck is this coil getting blistering hot?

#1991 3 months ago
Quoted from wxforecaster:

the coil has the same windings for power and hold (1 ohm)

That doesn't sound right at all... What coil number was used? 1 ohm or 2 ohm, either way that coil will heat up real quick if energized continuously

#1992 3 months ago

SFL-19-400/30-750 are the coils on both flippers. Again, the left flipper does not get hot and has the identical coil.

#1993 3 months ago

How are you checking the EOS gap? Are you pushing the flipper bat down or actually pushing JUST THE PAWL until it hits the coil stop. If you are pushing the flipper bat, or the bracket attached to the bat, you may not be gapping the EOS wide enough. When pushing on the flipper bat, the slop in the links lets the flipper bat and tab that activates the EOS move further than if pulled by the pawl.

#1994 3 months ago
Quoted from wxforecaster:

on this game since the coil has the same windings for power and hold (1 ohm) and simply gets halved when you open the EOS switch.

That doesn't sound right.

Quoted from wxforecaster:

SFL-19-400/30-750 are the coils on both flippers. Again, the left flipper does not get hot and has the identical coil.

The model number tells you a bit about these. The primary is 19 gauge, 400 turns while the secondary is 30 gauge, 750 turns.

I can't find an exact match in https://www.flippers.com/coil-resistance.html but a SFL-20-300/30-800-DC is 1.1ohm and 24.6ohm, nowhere near each other. I'd expect the SFL-19-400/30-750 to be very similar on the primary (fatter gauge but more turns=similar resistance) and slightly less on the secondary (same gauge, less turns = less resistance). Also, on consulting the Instruction booklet for Gorgar, it lists the SFL-20-300/30-800-DC coil for flippers.

If you are reading 1 ohm on both the primary and the secondary, something is wrong.

A picture of the flipper that works and the flipper that doesn't might assist in fault finding.

#1995 3 months ago
Quoted from ajfclark:

That doesn't sound right.

The model number tells you a bit about these. The primary is 19 gauge, 400 turns while the secondary is 30 gauge, 750 turns.
I can't find an exact match in https://www.flippers.com/coil-resistance.html but a SFL-20-300/30-800-DC is 1.1ohm and 24.6ohm, nowhere near each other. I'd expect the SFL-19-400/30-750 to be very similar on the primary (fatter gauge but more turns=similar resistance) and slightly less on the secondary (same gauge, less turns = less resistance). Also, on consulting the Instruction booklet for Gorgar, it lists the SFL-20-300/30-800-DC coil for flippers.
If you are reading 1 ohm on both the primary and the secondary, something is wrong.
A picture of the flipper that works and the flipper that doesn't might assist in fault finding.

You're absolutely that didn't sound right. I needed to open the EOS switch to get proper measurement across each lug. For the left flipper, I get 1.2 ohms to the center and 24.0 ohms to the left. Perfect. On the new right coil, I get 1.0 ohms center and OPEN to the left (was something stupid like 30 mega ohms). I think we found the problem. Hard to believe it's a bad coil at the factory as I haven't seen this before.

A SFL-19-400/30-750 is used in other Williams games of that era and is a perfect, slightly snappier substitute for the SFL-20-300/30-800. Pretty much identical resistance.

Owner has ordered a few spare coils. Will replace (again) and hopefully put this issue to bed.

#1996 3 months ago
Quoted from wxforecaster:

You're absolutely that didn't sound right. I needed to open the EOS switch to get proper measurement across each lug. For the left flipper, I get 1.2 ohms to the center and 24.0 ohms to the left. Perfect. On the new right coil, I get 1.0 ohms center and OPEN to the left (was something stupid like 30 mega ohms). I think we found the problem. Hard to believe it's a bad coil at the factory as I haven't seen this before.
A SFL-19-400/30-750 is used in other Williams games of that era and is a perfect, slightly snappier substitute for the SFL-20-300/30-800. Pretty much identical resistance.
Owner has ordered a few spare coils. Will replace (again) and hopefully put this issue to bed.

If you're getting 1 ohm across a closed EOS, it needs cleaning, alignment or replacement. It should read as a dead short (or very close to).

#1997 3 months ago
Quoted from ajfclark:

If you're getting 1 ohm across a closed EOS, it needs cleaning, alignment or replacement. It should read as a dead short (or very close to).

It might be averaging out with the coil resistance. Can't reliably test eos resistance while it's attached to the coil

#1998 3 months ago
Quoted from zacaj:

It might be averaging out with the coil resistance. Can't reliably test eos resistance while it's attached to the coil

Resistors in parallel don’t average... more current because there’s multiple paths so resistance appears to be actually lower than lowest value. Formula is Rtot=(R1xR2)/(R1+R2)

Also remember if you’re doing some measurements on dual flippers with the flipper button engaged that there’s another set of coils you may need to take into the calculation .

#1999 3 months ago
Quoted from zacaj:

It might be averaging out with the coil resistance. Can't reliably test eos resistance while it's attached to the coil

True, my bad. I do check them before I attach a new coil so I wasn't thinking how it'd work in situ.

#2000 3 months ago

Alright, game is fully working. Was a calamity of problems. Coil that replaced the burned coil was bad out of the box with an open winding to the hold power lug. Once I replaced with a new coil. I played a gamed and cradled both flippers for a couple minutes. BOTH coils were scalding hot. My guess was that we only noticed the right one getting hot just due to the nature of Gorgar and more frequently wanting a ball trapped on the right.

Someone had done a nice job converting to WPC style flippers, but had improperly wired the return wire to the EOS switch such that when the EOS opened, the high power lug was completing the circuit, not the hold power lug. Never trust previous people's work.

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
$ 28.00
$ 105.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lermods
$ 49.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lighted Pinball Mods
From: $ 15.95
$ 21.00
€ 95.00
Lighting - Led
FlipperLED
From: $ 9.00
$ 29.99
Cabinet - Sound/Speakers
Lighted Pinball Mods
From: $ 9.99
$ 69.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lighted Pinball Mods
$ 69.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lighted Pinball Mods
$ 69.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lighted Pinball Mods
6,500
Machine - For Sale
Rockford, IL
$ 9.99
$ 129.00
Lighting - Led
LED OCD
$ 15.00
7,100 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
Melissa, TX
From: $ 29.00
Boards
KAHR.US Circuits
$ 69.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lighted Pinball Mods
$ 69.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lighted Pinball Mods
$ 117.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
The MOD Couple
From: $ 19.50
Apparel - Unisex
ArcadeMade
$ 40.00
Lighting - Other
Rock Custom Pinball
Great pinball charity
Pinball Edu
There are 2048 posts in this topic. You are on page 40 of 41.

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside