(Topic ID: 18292)

VID's Guide to Upgrading/Rebuilding Flippers

By vid1900

9 years ago


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15 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 10 items. (Show topic index)

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#1901 4 years ago

Can you take a side on shot of the coil, plunger, and bushing?

#1902 4 years ago
Quoted from spinal:

Thanks Marc for helping as I admit to being perplexed right now. Purchased new bracket and rebuild kit as well as standard Williams bushing from Marco. Put into playfield and it's recessed

Take both flipper brackets out. See if the bushings are the same length. Something isn’t right...

#1903 4 years ago

IMG_0946 (resized).JPG

IMG_0947 (resized).JPG

#1904 4 years ago

I am likely too tied to be smart. Let me ponder this in the morning. Strange.

#1905 4 years ago

Mystery solved! Thanks so much Marc! I just couldn't wrap my head around it as it was a brand new part - needed to think outside the box...

Defective part from Marco!

Now I can sleep

image (resized).jpg

#1906 4 years ago

Ha! That was it! That’ll do it.

#1907 4 years ago

Thanks again - much appreciated as I needed someone to tell me to take it apart

Newb lesson learned - don't always assume parts are correct or even correctly made - inspect more carefully before installing instead of just grabbing out of bag.

3 weeks later
#1908 4 years ago

Just wondering if anyone has ever replaced the flipper mechs in the old Pre-1975 Bally EMs with something from a new/better designed machine. I'm working on a Twin Win that needs all four flippers rebuilt and it is going to be expensive. I really don't like the old style Bally EM mechs with the nylon ring around them and the roll pins, etc. The last time I rebuilt some of these was in Bon Voyage and they cost an arm and a leg and didn't have much power even when done. Anyone install Gottlieb flippers from the same era? How about WPC flippers?

#1909 4 years ago

So I just rebuilt my BTTF flippers top to bottom from new bats to new coils. I’ve struggling to keep the flipper bat from rotating after 8-10 flips. I’ve retightend and readjusted 4 times and they keep coming loose. I even took the socket cap screw allen key and I put a set of locking pliers on it to make a cheater bar and they’re still rotating. I was literally lifting the PF tightening the cap screws down. What am I doing wrong? I thought about a dab of jb weld but I know I’ll regret that in the future. Please help

#1910 4 years ago
Quoted from ypurchn:

So I just rebuilt my BTTF flippers top to bottom from new bats to new coils. I’ve struggling to keep the flipper bat from rotating after 8-10 flips. I’ve retightend and readjusted 4 times and they keep coming loose. I even took the socket cap screw allen key and I put a set of locking pliers on it to make a cheater bar and they’re still rotating. I was literally lifting the PF tightening the cap screws down. What am I doing wrong? I thought about a dab of jb weld but I know I’ll regret that in the future. Please help

Are the two sides of the crank that squeeze the shaft touching?

#1911 4 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Are the two sides of the crank that squeeze the shaft touching?

No.

6A633883-51A5-4E40-B734-B98EE73D958F (resized).jpeg
E512A274-AB35-4F7F-8382-BDC4D1DC9C08 (resized).jpeg

#1912 4 years ago
Quoted from ypurchn:

So I just rebuilt my BTTF flippers top to bottom from new bats to new coils. I’ve struggling to keep the flipper bat from rotating after 8-10 flips. I’ve retightend and readjusted 4 times and they keep coming loose. I even took the socket cap screw allen key and I put a set of locking pliers on it to make a cheater bar and they’re still rotating. I was literally lifting the PF tightening the cap screws down. What am I doing wrong? I thought about a dab of jb weld but I know I’ll regret that in the future. Please help

That happened to me when rebuilding flippers on Johnny Mnemonic. No matter how hard I tightened the bolt, the one flipper would rotate after a few flipper hits. I broke two bolts trying to tighten them over again (the new silver ones are crap). I went to my old parts bin and grabbed an old black allen bolt. No change, but the bolt held. At no time did the gap close around the flipper shaft.

Turned out to be the flipper bat. The shaft had loosened from the flipper plastic. (With vice grips and moderate force I could turn the shaft while holding the flipper bat in my hand). I never even considered that this could be the cause. Another (used) flipper bat solved my problem.

#1913 4 years ago
Quoted from superJackpot:

(the new silver ones are crap)

Oh, thank god. I feel SO MUCH BETTER now. For the last x years, I thought I was going crazy, snapping or stripping these things, and thinking I completely mis-remembered being able to tighten them very snugly in the past. Same for the new Williams ones.

Glad it's not just me now.

#1914 4 years ago
Quoted from superJackpot:

Turned out to be the flipper bat. The shaft had loosened from the flipper plastic. (With vice grips and moderate force I could turn the shaft while holding the flipper bat in my hand). I never even considered that this could be the cause. Another (used) flipper bat solved my problem.

Mine is not a bat separating from shaft.

Any other thoughts on how to fix?

#1915 4 years ago
Quoted from ypurchn:

Mine is not a bat separating from shaft.
Any other thoughts on how to fix?

Is it just the one flipper than rotates?

Is it this assembly pictured below?

Try reusing the old mech's pawl assembly. It should separate from the link attached to the plunger. Or put a locking nut on the backside in case the thread is compromised.

data east bttf flip kit (resized).jpg

#1916 4 years ago
Quoted from superJackpot:

That happened to me when rebuilding flippers on Johnny Mnemonic. No matter how hard I tightened the bolt, the one flipper would rotate after a few flipper hits. I broke two bolts trying to tighten them over again (the new silver ones are crap). I went to my old parts bin and grabbed an old black allen bolt. No change, but the bolt held. At no time did the gap close around the flipper shaft.
Turned out to be the flipper bat. The shaft had loosened from the flipper plastic. (With vice grips and moderate force I could turn the shaft while holding the flipper bat in my hand). I never even considered that this could be the cause. Another (used) flipper bat solved my problem.

One thing that can cause this is the design of the DE cranks.

The cranks on Data East flipper mechs are threaded on one side only.

That means the cap nut has to go on the side that is NOT threaded.

Otherwise you are only tightening the cap nut against the threading and not drawing the two sides together.

Does that make sense?

Ask me how I know this...

RussMyers

#1917 4 years ago
Quoted from RussMyers:

threaded on one side only.

I'd definitely look at this.

#1918 4 years ago
Quoted from superJackpot:

Is it just the one flipper than rotates?
Is it this assembly pictured below?
Try reusing the old mech's pawl assembly. It should separate from the link attached to the plunger. Or put a locking nut on the backside in case the thread is compromised.

It was both. I cranked down on the left to the point that it stopped. Couldn't get the right tight enough to stop it.

I'll go with a locking nut on the backside first. Thanks for the pointer. I think this is inline with the other comments below

Quoted from RussMyers:

One thing that can cause this is the design of the DE cranks.
The cranks on Data East flipper mechs are threaded on one side only.
That means the cap nut has to go on the side that is NOT threaded.
Otherwise you are only tightening the cap nut against the threading and not drawing the two sides together.
Does that make sense?
Ask me how I know this...
RussMyers

this actually makes perfect sense. I'm assuming (ass out of you and me) that this was installed correctly as purchased because I didn't back the cap nut all the way out before installation

what's the bet that I end up snapping the head off of the cap screw?

#1919 4 years ago
Quoted from ypurchn:

It was both. I cranked down on the left to the point that it stopped. Couldn't get the right tight enough to stop it.
I'll go with a locking nut on the backside first. Thanks for the pointer. I think this is inline with the other comments below

this actually makes perfect sense. I'm assuming (ass out of you and me) that this was installed correctly as purchased because I didn't back the cap nut all the way out before installation
what's the bet that I end up snapping the head off of the cap screw?

Use a grade 8 cap screw, you won't snap the head off of that.

#1920 4 years ago

what’s with Marco listing two different flipper rebuilds for Hook?
The one I was given with the game was this one:
http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/500-6306-20
But the flippers on this game do not even have EOS switches or extension springs.
This seems like the kit that should be for Hook but it’s not list as compatable:
http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/500-6306-30
Weird. Haha

Manual definitely calls for the second one too.

#1921 4 years ago

I'm doing the pinball life flipper upgrade for gorgar. What do I do to fill the holes on the top of the playfield left by the old bushing screws? Cut off some of the thread that is too long for the new mount and reinstall just to get those 3 big holes filled? Also, should I drill some pilot holes for the new Mount or go straight into the bottom on the playfield?

20171107_113616 (resized).jpg

20171107_113834 (resized).jpg

#1922 4 years ago
Quoted from Chalkey:

What do I do to fill the holes on the top of the playfield left by the old bushing screws?

If you were restoring the playfield, then Bondo. If you are just doing flippers, dip a bamboo BBQ skewer into while glue and tap into the holes. Snip off flush with Diags and touch with dab of paint.

Quoted from Chalkey:

Also, should I drill some pilot holes for the new Mount or go straight into the bottom on the playfield?

The new screws usually make their own holes in the soft Maple, no problem.

If you want to drill pilot holes, that's the proper way to do it (but honestly, I never do).

#1923 4 years ago

Still rebuilding some Hook data east flippers.

Are data east flipper bats a different diameter in the shaft than say williams or stern? Im getting slop when the bat is in the bushing like there’s too much room in the bushing sleeve and the bat shifts.

Both DE flippers that came with the game were busted and I had no others to try so I popped in two williams flippers.

Also could it be the bushing? One thing I always thought was the same across all bushings was the diameter of the sleeve. Maybe im wrong.

#1924 4 years ago

Did you put new bushings in?

#1925 4 years ago
Quoted from Coyote:

Did you put new bushings in?

Yep sorry forgot to mention that. The bushings I put in are new Part number 545-5070 per the marco kit and those appear to be right per the manual.

#1926 4 years ago

Now that the upgraded mechs are in there is there another adjustment I need to do to get 50v to the coils?

I ended up drilling pilot holes for the new mechs, the screws wouldn't cooperate.

#1927 4 years ago
Quoted from Chalkey:

Now that the upgraded mechs are in there is there another adjustment I need to do to get 50v to the coils?
I ended up drilling pilot holes for the new mechs, the screws wouldn't cooperate.

There's no 50v available on your game (any Williams with 50v available already has newer mechs), you need to use the older coils designed for the 28V

#1928 4 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Still rebuilding some Hook data east flippers.
Are data east flipper bats a different diameter in the shaft than say williams or stern? Im getting slop when the bat is in the bushing like there’s too much room in the bushing sleeve and the bat shifts.
Both DE flippers that came with the game were busted and I had no others to try so I popped in two williams flippers.
Also could it be the bushing? One thing I always thought was the same across all bushings was the diameter of the sleeve. Maybe im wrong.

Figured it out. The slop was in the bolt that holds the pawl to the plunger link. I tightened both of those. All gravy now.

#1929 4 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

There's no 50v available on your game (any Williams with 50v available already has newer mechs), you need to use the older coils designed for the 28V

Nevermind I just confused myself. The correct coils for 28 are what's in there from pbl.

#1930 4 years ago
Quoted from Chalkey:

Then what was the point of upgrading, just the smoother mechs?
Edit: Nevermind I just confused myself

The old mechs were garbage with tons of bounce.

Replacing with modern mechs means you get surgical flipper precision + MUCH cheaper rebuilds in the future.

#1931 4 years ago

They are smooth as hell and the ball moves like a scalded dog. Thanks, vid!

#1932 4 years ago

Upgrading BK to WPC era flipper assemblies...

http://www.siegecraft.us/blackknight6.htm

I have a Black Knignt and would like to do this upgrade but the site does not work anymore. Questions I have are my flippers do not have the capacitors so do I need to add them in and if so where at?

#1933 4 years ago
Quoted from Limited89:

Upgrading BK to WPC era flipper assemblies...
http://www.siegecraft.us/blackknight6.htm
I have a Black Knignt and would like to do this upgrade but the site does not work anymore. Questions I have are my flippers do not have the capacitors so do I need to add them in and if so where at?

You don't have to add them.

I think Sorcerer was the first game they tried adding them to. Maybe 25% of Sorcerers have them.

Here is the page you seek:

https://web.archive.org/web/20150409044935/http://www.siegecraft.us/blackknight6.htm

#1934 4 years ago

Vid1900, I want to attempt your guide on my Williams Black Kight, Centaur, and Bally Lost World (1978). How do I know which coils to get for each machine on pinball life?

For these games I will need 6 of these, correct? http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=172

How do I know which coils are comparable for each of these machines? What about the coil stops?

#1935 4 years ago

Just finished my second flipper rebuild, this time taking on T2. Although the game didn't really "need" it (you could still shoot all the shots and make the ramps), I doubt the flippers had ever been rebuilt. So I went ahead and did it since I hate flaky flippers, after all they are the only real interaction you have with the game.

Although the second time around is certainly easier, I still referenced this guide to make sure it was done right. Thank you Vid for your invaluable input into this hobby, and your in depth explanations. The game plays great with the new snappy flippers.

#1936 4 years ago
Quoted from gabegabegabe:

Here is a picture of my Embryon lower right flipper mech.

Quoted from vid1900:

Both of those switches have the plastic pusher on the tips.
Probably best to just use the Bally parts in this instance.

Perhaps i am just a nimrod but can some one help me out here?

So i invested already some time into this whole Forum. First and foremost this is by the looks of it already one of the best forum which i saw on the world wide interwebz so far.

Anyway, currently i am disassembling and - hopefully reassembling - a Bally Vector.
I wanted to tackle the Flipper at some point as well but for them i am in need of new switches.
The attached Pictures are from my left flipper (not the upper one). The Playfield itself has 4 Flipper Bats.

I think the switches on this particular flipper bat were already replaced once because in my eyes at least the look pretty okay. Nonetheless i want to replace them no point in ordering only 2 switches and spare the expenses when i already invested a shitton of money into the restore itself. Unfortunately the right bat switches were not that lucky. I touched one and it literally fall apart to be honest i dont even know how in my initial test even worked and how the flipper bat moved

So i am a bit in a struggle here because the manual does not describe which type of switches were used. I tried the stupid approach of ordering any switch which is remotely close of looking a like... Well lets say i did learn something because no switch was even close of looking the same...

The Flipper rebuildkit does contain switches but you know - another switch for my super switch collection. So a big fat no fit on that one as well.

http://www.pinball.center/de/shop/flipperspezifisch/centaur/7298/rebuild-kit-bally-05/1980-03/1988?c=2704

Does someone of you happen to know which switches i do need? Even better would be a Guideline which i am able to follow to find out myself.

In case there is no documentation in the manual 'bout which switches are used can i for example order a switch which looks the same and use it?

In case i found a fitting switch which is just not right from high perspective wise, can i assume that the switch would work if i just adjust the high? If so am i able to buy some of the small things which i would need to adjust the high?

EDIT:

Btw i was asking myself if such a switch for example would do the trick - is just a better repro than the OG one even tho it looks different?

http://www.pinball.center/de/shop/elektronikteile/schalter-taster/2262/flipperkontakt-doppelt-bally-ac70-00023-0100

EDIT2:

I checked the manual one day to order some new coils and saw later on in the pin that almost every coil has the wrong size. Is this to be expected or am i just to damn stupid to understand Chars and Numbers?

I mean i read somewhere smaller number, lesser windings, stronger flipper bat but really is that what someone wants?

The coil on my Pictures says (34-3600)
The manual says 34-4500 correct? (see attached picture)

Manual itself -> http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/2723/vector_manual_rev.pdf

Cheers and thanks in advance for your help

Sev

image_63187_1 (resized).jpg
20171030_113546 (resized).jpg
20171030_113810 (resized).jpg

coil manual (resized).PNG

#1937 4 years ago

Hey guys, I've got a TZ where both lower flippers get progressively weaker after minutes of play. It's possible the upper ones do as well, but since the shots with each of them don't require much strength, it's not something I can visually confirm.

Here's what I've done/observed:

- Both flippers rebuilt, properly gapped, manually move fine with no binding. EOS switch on both is correctly firing at the end of stroke.
- Optos rebuilt, and even switched with another game. Switch tests show correct operation and EOS switch firing/timing
- Coils are NOT getting hot. They are warm, consistent with other games, but one can definitely keep a finger on them. I've seen hot coils from bad EOS switches or flaky optos.

What's left? In my mind I should have perfectly snappy flippers like the TZ I play nearby on location. Is this a possible bridge rectifier issue? I'm out of ideas.

#1938 4 years ago
Quoted from wxforecaster:

What's left? In my mind I should have perfectly snappy flippers like the TZ I play nearby on location. Is this a possible bridge rectifier issue? I'm out of ideas.

Since you ruled out the opto boards (flipper opto boards), then likely your Fliptronics board needs work. Caps, transistors, resistors..

#1939 4 years ago
Quoted from SomeCaliGuy:

Vid1900, I want to attempt your guide on my Williams Black Kight, Centaur, and Bally Lost World (1978). How do I know which coils to get for each machine on pinball life?

Are your current coils blown?

Generally, if your coils are still good (and are the correct ones listed in the manual) you reuse them.

They don't wear out.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-upgradingrebuilding-flippers/page/2#post-453690

#1940 4 years ago
Quoted from Severin:

Anyway, currently i am disassembling and - hopefully reassembling - a Bally Vector.

Remember that the two upper flipper bats on Vector are the small ones. Often these have been replaced by full size bats over the years by lazy operators.

Fix this before your put the game back together.

Also, most people get rid of the Linear flipper mechs, and switch to the much faster old style mechs.

The Linear plungers weigh 2x what the old style ones did, so it's simple physics why they suck so bad.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-upgradingrebuilding-flippers/page/11#post-1855100

#1941 4 years ago

Vid..or anyone that may know! I'm looking to rebuild my mini flippers for TSPP. Do you know if Pinball Life stock these or where to get them from please. Any help welcomed.

Cheers

#1942 4 years ago
Quoted from jardine:

Vid..or anyone that may know! I'm looking to rebuild my mini flippers for TSPP. Do you know if Pinball Life stock these or where to get them from please. Any help welcomed.
Cheers

http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=741

#1943 4 years ago

Now what about the rest...haha...or doesn't it have sleeves, plungers etc!?! I was hoping for the whole kit to do a full rebuild. Not just shaft and flipper.

#1944 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Remember that the two upper flipper bats on Vector are the small ones. Often these have been replaced by full size bats over the years by lazy operators.
Fix this before your put the game back together.
Also, most people get rid of the Linear flipper mechs, and switch to the much faster old style mechs.
The Linear plungers weigh 2x what the old style ones did, so it's simple physics why they suck so bad.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-upgradingrebuilding-flippers/page/11#post-1855100

Thanks for your answers.

Yeah sadly one of them bats is a big one, almost as big to block the whole ramp down from the XYZ targets LOL.

I read that Post from you with the upgrade/downgrade days ago already. Sounded pretty good imho and i will try that for the upper bats for sure.

But the question still remains what is happening with the lower playfield bats? They have 2 switches is it that simple - just order 2 of them and place them ontop/side to side to each other and solder the cable as they were before?

That being said i tried to assemble the rebuild kit and literally not a single screw fits on the mounting bracket o.O even worse is that there seems to be no nut "needed" to mount the round white plastic onto the bracket. Perhaps its just a bad kit :/

Please bear with me. i am as one might see completely new into pins :/

Cheers

Sev

#1945 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Generally, if your coils are still good (and are the correct ones listed in the manual) you reuse them.
They don't wear out.

Even this still worked, but I couldn't replace the brass sleeve without the whole thing disintegrating:20171027_150049 (resized).jpg

I haven't peaked under the covers on its brother, which also had a recalcitrant sleeve:20171027_135942 (resized).jpg

#1946 4 years ago

first time blowing up a coil myself. lol damn sleeve didn't want to come out.

53341636911__13B30314-7044-43C7-8D51-486BFA4CD73C (resized).JPG

#1947 4 years ago

Vid, I'm a super newb, so I apologize if my question is stupid. What I'm trying to understand is how to know which parallel coil is equivalent to a series coil. For instance, my Ball Lost World uses a AQ-25-500/34-4500 coil for the flippers.

You say: If you are going to switch to newer Parallel Wound Coils:
FL23/600 - 30/2600 would be replaced by FL11630
FL24/600 - 30/2600 would be replaced by FL11722

FL23/600 - 30/2600? Where does this number come from? And how do I know what coil stop is appropriate to use with each coil?

#1948 4 years ago
Quoted from SomeCaliGuy:

FL23/600 - 30/2600? Where does this number come from?

Well the first number is the gauge of the wire and trhe second is how many times it's wond...winded...(whatever the real term is) around

#1949 4 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Well the first number is the gauge of the wire and trhe second is how many times it's wond...winded...(whatever the real term is) around

Wound?

3 weeks later
#1950 3 years ago

I have been upgrading my Firepower 2 flippers recently and learned a lot from reading this whole thread.

My original flippers were a cocktail of series and parallel coils. The coil stops were odd, and the EOS bracket is spot welded to the base plate - so I just went ahead and bought all the bits I needed for completely new mechs. In this case the 92-93 Williams kit and extra bits and pieces. All except the solenoid brackets which didn’t come with the rebuild kit - so I farmed them from the old mechs and then cut a slot into for the coil lug.

Don’t forget to apply heat shrink to the capacitor wire and the EOS contact point on the flipper pawl.

At first I thought the EOS switch stack was held together by the thread on the screw so went ahead and bought some nuts and bolts to hold it together - and had to cut the bolts down with a Dremel. I later realised that the screw pulls the switch stack together because of a small retaining plate called a Tinnerman Speednut. No matter.

As vid1900 writes - do all the fiddly work on the bench. I wasn’t sure how to attach the capacitor to the EOS switch so just did what I thought made sense and left enough room for the later soldering. The capacitor is not polarised so can be attached in any direction. The pics might help someone.

I just need to affix them to the machine now and work out what to solder where.

Pics are out of order sorry.

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