Hi all!

I've been reading 20 pages now but did not manage to read more right now =) so sorry if my questions have been answered allready.

Anyway Im gonna rebuild the flippers on my HS. And I am wondering a few things. First, the frigging coil stop.. as I understand it one can divide the games into two categories, short coil stop and long coil stop. But, since its not stated (as far as I know) in the manual how long throw the flippers should have is it sorta safe to say system 11 games need the shorter stop? A-12 111. And the kit A-13524-8?
I know theres a difference between games built in 1992-1993 and the later 1993-1998 games. (the later ones having the longer stop but shorter throw). But what about games pre 1992?
I don't have the parts on hand but otherwise it would be nice to know the length of the shorter and longer stops in inches (when new) so that one can measure the parts (if found later in a box of new parts that would be good to have on hand, I always mix up things and dont mark every bag with part numbers...) and see if its the right one.

I will get the new flipper plates, or maybe the EOS bracket sold separately to fit the new syle spring.

Another question is about the coil direction. If I turn the coil with the lugs toward the flipper bat and away from the coil stop bracket, do I need to flip the wires? I guess not since it's not mentioned as far as I can see. From what I understand the coil, when energized, will "suck" the plunger towards its center (on flipper coils) so it wont matter. If you switch the wires it would try to send the plunger away from its center.. am I right?

Last question, is it a bad idea to add locktite to the screws on the flipper units, for example the ones holding the flipper bat bushing?

The rest I think I get...

/Andy

I wouldn't unless you have a chronic problem with screws loosening on their own. You will have a tough time changing and replacing parts later. I recently ran into this situation because of loctite: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/nut-screw-stuck-on-wpc-flipper-pawl-cant-remove-flipper-shaft

Well, I like it on the flipper bushing screws and the nuts on the back of the plate as well. That seems to be the way the factory done it, and they usually are still in place and holding well. Easily defeated with a hot soldering iron.

I had an EOS switch tab snap off and so the coil sleeve warped and got stuck in the coil. I ordered a new coil that came with a sleeve. These are the red FL-11630 coils. The old one and a different one from a mech I bought later measure 4.6ohms on the main winding, but the new coil is measuring 1.1. Is this an issue? It's going into a Diner if that matters.

Hm.. guess its my call on the loctite then. I think, if the screws don't come off it will do without it. I'd rather be able to replace parts easily.

Anyone knows about the coil stop? If A-12111 is generally a good choice for system 11s? As I understand it it's the shorter of the two main ones.

IMHO, use 12111's in ALL your games.

Terminator 2 coil stops--should they be A-12390 or A-12111? The manual lists A-12111, but I'm seeing discussion about "upgrading" to A-12390.

A-12111 and A-12390 are the same, except for how long (deep) the stop is. The latter will give you a shallower flip, and was started to be used in games after TZ (if my timing is correct). The shallower flip will make it more difficult to catch balls.

From what I understood, 12111 was .370" (longer stop, shorter flipper travel) and 12390 was .330" (shorter stop, longer flipper travel). 12390 appears to have been used used starting in 1993.

However--the non-fliptronic rebuild kits seem to include 12390 instead of 12111.
[edit]: scratch that, I misread the part numbers.

pasted_image_(resized).png

Ok, so A-12111 was .370" (shorter stop, longer flipper travel) and A-12390 was .420" (longer stop, shorter flipper travel). A-12390 appears to have been used used starting in 1993.

So, then A-12111 is probably the one I'm looking for. I read the measurements from the A-10821 coil stop by mistake, which confused me. The stop on A-10821 is extra short (.330").

pasted_image_(resized).png

Ah - that's good to know, actually. I wasn't aware the 10821 ones would fit on WPC flippers. May have to try those, for kicks. My TZ was shipped with 12111's, but there was an addendum in my manual saying 'they were changed to 12390s'.

Does anybody know the materials that the coil stops are made out of? Are most of them just steel? I do PVD coatings at work such as titanium nitride (if you've ever seen the gold drill bits at the store, thats the stuff). I've constantly been wondering what kind of pinball stuff I could coat at work as TiN has a great gold color but perhaps more importantly will add significant durability to things that are coated. An idea I've been kicking around is maybe coating a set of plungers and coil stops. In theory they would last significantly longer than ever possible before. Of course you'd still have to replace things like sleevs and EOS switches, not to mention the links, which is kind of a PITA but I am more just wanting to do it just to test my theory.

Plungers and coil stops tend to "mushroom" (i.e., a type of plastic deformation, permanently deforming the metal) due to the repeated impact and the hardness of the steel. Would TiN really solve or minimize that problem?

yes, I believe it would. Its used in the punching and metal forming business for those very reasons. The unknown factor here is though that those metals are much much harder than the metal used for plungers and stops, so I don't know if the effect would be as great on the softer steel. I have to imagine it would still have some effect though simply due to the hardness of the coating itself. Like I said, I am curious just to try, its not like I am thinking of marketing the idea or anything like that, I just like coating stuff and seeing the results, but I've yet to come up with any good pinball related items to coat.

Allright, thanks for the answers. The bottom line seem to be something like:

Short stop A-12111 = 0.379" (Bally Williams games prior to 1992. And System 11 in general.)
Long stop A-12390 = 0.420" (Bally Williams games after 08/1993 to 06/1999)
Extra short stop A-10821 = 0.330" Not sure what games used it..

I won't pay that much attention to the extra short stop as for now since it would be confusing to call the short stop A-12111 the medium stop.. =)

Coyote said earlier to use the A-12111 stop in all games. Could be a decent rule of thumb but I wonder if the game would play differently, like when aiming for ramps etc. I would like it as close to intended as possible.

Anyone knows about the coil direction, if flipping the wires is needed?

The coil lugs should be furthest away from the coil stop.

yeah, but if I turn the coil, will the plunger go in the right direction? Do the coil always pull the plunger towards the middle of itself when the wires are setup the way they are from factory? so it does not matter..

or..

do I need to flip the wires on the lugs when the coil is mounted in the other direction?

What I THINK will happen/how it works is that in its normal config the coil attracts the plunger towards its center but if the wires are switched it will repell the plunger trying to send it AWAY from its center.. so the physical direction of the lugs wont matter. Like a magnet either repelling or attracting metal objects, since the coil, after all, is an electro magnet.. =)

It doesn't matter. A coil always pulls in a plunger, no matter which side of the coil that it is on.

Nope--that would cause the coil to not work correctly since there is a high power winding and a low power winding.

Allright, thanks for the info! Good to know!

Any recommendations on upgrading data east flippers for Rocky & Bullwinkle?
Or does it make sense to just purchase rebuild kit from PBR?

vid... im sure the answer to this question is in here somewhere but... what do i need to do to upgrade my FUNHOUSE flippers ( has springs) to match what i have on my TOTAN ( no springs and feel much snappier ) ?

It has springs somewhere though. Do you mean the TOTAN has the narrow spring off to the side and FH has the wider spring around the metal slug?

Rebuilt upper right flipper on addams, because of weak shots. Replaced EOS, coil stop, bushing, coil, swapped cabinet switches, flipper pawl and sleeve and still weak after adjusting EOS. Where should I look next?

Yes your right. I looked at my BOP and she doesn't have the wide spring around the slug either. TOTAN flippers feel the best of all of them. FH the worst. Keep in mind all of the games have rebuilt flippers. I'll post some pics as soon as I can. Any ideas?

Hey Vid,

I did a flipper rebuild a few months ago on my Firepower and I replaced everything with new mechs from Pinball Life. A few days ago I noticed a loud buzz/hum coming from the right flipper only. It happens intermittently and only when the flipper button is held in. I looked back through this thread and found someone else that experienced something similar and you told him to check the play in the coils and that everything was tight.

I've had a look at both flippers and both coils seem to have the same amount of play in them. Everything is tight and the EOS gaps are good (measured and set using a feeler gauge). The other thing is that the coil get pretty hot very quickly when you hold the button in.

I'm not sure what else I can check. Any suggestions? I can post pictures if necessary.

Thanks,

Dino Z.

The end of stroke switch is not doing its job. Check all of the components and your connections and contacts.

When I ground middle tab, it doesn't kick like the bottom two flippers

What components should I be checking? Everything is brand new except the switch for lane switching. I can unsolder and resolder everything. When I put the game in diagnostic mode, lift the playfield and hit and hold the flipper button everything looks fine. I see a bit of an arc when the EOS switch opens but it is no different than what I'm seeing on the left flipper. Is it possible that I have a bad coil or that something is misaligned?

As I mentioned, it is intermittent. I can hit and hold the button a few times and everything is fine. Then I do it again and I get a buzz/hum. I release and try it again and it goes away. And this isn't a quiet buzz/hum, it is fairly audible and I can feel it when my hands are resting on the machine.

check for shorted wires or solder blobs etc, resolder all the connections.
coil should not get hot when the flipper is extended.
make sure the eos switch is open 1/8 of an inch when the flippers is fully extended. clean the contacts on the eos switch.
check the grounds thru-out the machine.
make sure any diodes in the circuit are good and installed in the right direction.

Anyone see anything obvious here that I'm missing? Should I be able to move the coil at all between the mounting brackets? I've tried resoldering with no luck.

IMG_20160816_210634_(resized).jpg

IMG_20160816_210509_(resized).jpg

You're EOS switch should be much closer together when it is open at the end of the stroke. Like half of what you're showing. Not sure if that's causing your issue though.

the coil should fit snug, not tight but snug if installed correctly and not move up or down.

I will measure it again but it's set at 1/8" when fully open, as Vid instructed. I used my automotive feeler gauges to measure. I even used a micrometer to measure the stack of feeler gauges to make sure it was at 1/8". If anything it is a hair tighter than 1/8".

Both the left and right coils have the same amount of movement in them, snug as suggested. No issues at all with the left flipper.

Could a bad diode be the cause? I can unsolder and test it to make sure. Or perhaps a bad coil?

I wouldn't worry about measuring. Just make it look like this.

image_(resized).jpeg

It can always be a bad diode, they fail often. If you feel like doing the work, swap the coils (or even the complete mechs) left to right and see if the problem moves to the other side. Also check your cabinet switches, see if something is out of sorts.

Okay, I'm still banging my head against the wall with this. I adjusted the EOS switch, I've swapped the coils from side to side, I've resoldered everything and I still have the same issue. I'm certain the wiring is correct. I've looked at pictures from other people's games.

Is there something I can measure to make sure the voltages are correct? Is it possible to have a bad EOS switch? Would the lane change switch have any effect? If it was a bad diode would I have not experienced something much worse than this?

Just to add to this, the coil gets very hot when holding the flipper button in. After doing some more research, when the EOS switch is open the hold (low voltage) coil should become energized. So if the coil is getting hot to the touch, does this mean that the voltage is too high or it's drawing too much current? What might be causing this?

If it is getting hot the EOS is not doing its job. You are only using the primary winding which draws a ton of current and therefore heats up.

I will do the swap and check if anything changes but would this be causing the coil to heat up if the EOS switch is working properly?

Is there a way to get better performance our data east flippers?
Will using Williams components give better performance?

Does the same thing apply to Sega flippers?

I put Williams mechs into my Apollo 13. I like it much better with them in there....

Did change the coil?

No; the OEM coils are single-winding, so I kept them. They fit fine.

Ok, time for me to start my first flipper rebuild. I am based in Europe and usually buy at pinballcenter.eu. I will rebuild my TZ flippers. They have two kits: Williams 92/93 and Williams 93/98:

http://www.pinball.center/en/shop/pinball-parts-by-game/the-addams-family/2445/rebuild-kit-bally-/-williams-02/1992-04/1993?c=2339

http://www.pinball.center/en/shop/pinball-parts-by-game/demolition-man/2449/rebuild-kit-bally-/-williams-08/1993-10/1998?c=2339

I read VID suggests to use the latest. TZ in theory should use 92/93 ones.

Which one to use? And are those pinballcenter rebuild kits recommended?

I asked and the only difference is the coil stop. Is the 93-98 better?

In general, are pinballcenter rebuild kits reliable, or others are better (in EU)?

No, use the "92/93" (the years, I assume that is? As opposed to 1993-1998?) If I'm right, use the older one. Shorter coil stops, give you greater flipper travel.