Cool, thanks.
(Topic ID: 18292)
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Quoted from balzofsteel:... while redrawing, perhaps draw in the gen1 screw and washer??
(lazy me got the Zacky stickers from Marco. They look pretty good and with no other ALI or ZZZ pins around to compare - nobody knows they don't belong.)IMG_0456_(resized).jpg
I scanned my old flippers and re-created the Allied Leisure decals. This was just a test print and quick trim. I printed a slight beige color on the paper to hide the stark whiteness/newness of the paper. Final version will be printed on card stock and trimmed more carefully. I'll spray the back of the paper with 3M adhesive, then stick them to the flippers. I might put mylar on top of that as an extra measure since these things are only paper and I've seen how mangled the original decals can get.
This may have been addressed but I couldn't find the specific answer after searching the thread, so here goes ...
I just picked up a Rocky & Bullwinkle and am considering rebuilding the flippers. It has the "old school" design where the larger springs nest over the plungers. Would you recommend replacing with the same equipment:
- http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=3525
Or would I be better off "upgrading" in some fashion? And if so would you recommend the newer Data East/Sega design:
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=248
Or even one of the B/W Fliptronic era kits:
- http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=983
- http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=244
Finally, if I do go with one of the more modern kits, is there any additional hardware I'd need to add or swap in to make the kit work with a Rocky & Bullwinkle?
Sana'a
Wondering if you could comment on a scenario I encountered with my Firepower restoration. Last summer I bought the flipper rebuild kit (and bushings!) Marco lists for the game; I thought about upgrading but decided to keep the "original vintage feel" for variety in my collection. I'd previously rebuilt the flippers on Space Shuttle and Whirlwind without issue, so I'm familiar with the process. Didn't get to finish and test Firepower until this past weekend.
The flippers work great and have enough power to make all the shots, and good action and control. EXCEPT for some reason the right flipper would occasionally seem to stick after a flip and/or have a slightly hesitant return. This behavior occurred very inconsistently: I could play several games in a row without it happening; other times I'd lose balls owing to it happening several times in a row. One time it got stuck for several seconds.
I checked and rechecked my switch gaps, alignments, etc... everything seemed good. Manual action was butter-smooth! Frustratingly, operating the flippers with the pf raised never seemed to cause the problem either.... 
Finally I noticed something:
When in the flipped position, the beveled portion of the fiber link would bury itself into the coil sleeve. Occasionally it would bind into the nylon and get stuck for a moment before returning to rest position.
So my question is: Surely the game could not have been designed with this flaw, so which part(s) did Marco pack incorrectly (the sleeve or the link or...)?
Now on the one hand I'm sorta proud I figured out this obscure "new" problem. But on the other hand: I have fixed this by cutting a notch into the coil sleeve and voila: the link no longer gets stuck in the sleeve. But does that fall into "bad hack" territory, or can I get away with that?
FWIW I looked at the left flipper, and sure enough it had the same issue, except it chipped that part of the sleeve so it never did get stuck!
20160427_214042_(resized).jpg
Cut_(resized).jpg
Shoot, after typing all of this, I think I might know the "root cause" of the problem: Firepower's flipper bases have the integrated coil stops. They looked fine so I saw no reason to replace them, but holy hell, is it possible they've been beat down that much before I got the game - thus allowing that extra 1/8" or so of plunge depth?!
(That's insane....ly almost cool?!)
I understand what you're suggesting, but I can confidently state no. I agree it looks close, but there's also unworn metal right at the end. In any event even when I've tried to bury it, the switch doesn't snag the pawl.
But now I'm probably gonna be paranoid about that happening.... no good could come from that...!
Heh, you might have missed my edit to the post, under the photos: I speculated the same thing, but IIRC those coil stops are integrated to the base. Which means this game got the snot played out of it!
But you are in agreement then that the link should not be traveling so far in. So what would you do in this case: spring for new bases, or is there a better / more economical option, or is my "hack" passable enough for now?
I wonder how "different" Firepower plays with that extra bit of travel? I'm not a veteran of the game; I love it so far but want the most authentic experience.
Quoted from goingincirclez:Heh, you might have missed my edit to the post, under the photos: I speculated the same thing, but IIRC those coil stops are integrated to the base. Which means this game got the snot played out of it!
I missed the edit.
If those are the original coil stops they are probably missing 70% of their material.
Quoted from goingincirclez:But you are in agreement then that the link should not be traveling so far in. So what would you do in this case: spring for new bases, or is there a better / more economical option, or is my "hack" passable enough for now?
I'd get the more modern WPC style bases.
REPLACEABLE Coil Stops!
No more crummy, trouble causing, always breaking, Compression Springs!
Cheap $22 rebuilds!
There is no downside to going to the modern bases.
Quoted from goingincirclez:I wonder how "different" Firepower plays with that extra bit of travel? I'm not a veteran of the game; I love it so far but want the most authentic experience.
The extra travel makes the game easier because you can catch the ball easier, and the shots are easier because you get a wider range of motion .
Quoted from vid1900:makes the game easier
Auugh can't have that, Firepower is supposed to make men cry!
Glad I asked this tonight because I have a couple flaky switches I might like to replace, so now I get to add the bases in. Do you know what size the original stops would have been? If not I'll try to look this up tomorrow before I place the order.
Thanks again sir, I owe you another drink...!
Middle O' Oregon
Quoted from vid1900:.... the FL-11630 coils to match the strength of your old 19-400 ones.
.......
... except that the voltage of the FL11630 (50) coil doesn't match the old 19-400 (24) ones.
Ordered the parts. And yes, I'll mount the lugs away from now on... I just wanted to test "as it was" for a baseline first. In my defense, that provided a valuable learning experience as I can now recognize the symptoms and other effects of worn stops, that I otherwise might never have known.
Now that I'm dialing things in, no better time to make them better. Thanks Vid!
Quoted from vid1900:Yes, you will need new holes for Flash.
The hole in the playfield where the Flipper Bushing goes through is larger than the Bushing.
You need to center the bushing, then drill the holes.
Before you put the playfield mounting screws into the new flipper base plates, you need to be sure that the Flipper Bushing stays in the center of the playfield hole.
You won't be able to hold it by hand; the force of the screws making new holes will drag the Bushing in some random direction.
You could use 3 shims, 120* apart to center it in the hole, or use a piece of plastic tubing, like I did in this example:4_(resized).jpg
Hey Vid how and what should I do about these screws already going through the playfield? Do I use them? Or remove them?
Quoted from HeatedCane:Hey Vid how and what should I do about these screws already going through the playfield? Do I use them? Or remove them?
Remove them.
They are nail screws, so tap them gently up and out.
There will be 3 small holes in the playfield. Touch up any chips in the paint (the holes are under the flipper, so you don't have to do too great of a job). If you were restoring the playfield, you could fill them with Bondo.
Quoted from balzofsteel:You could use them. You would need a spacer between the bracket and playfield so that the bracket doesn't get mashed when you tighten the nuts. The spacer can be made from the old flipper bushing. You may also need new holes in the bracket ...
I've actually seen people reuse them like that, with the cut down bushing!
I have no experience with this but it seems to me that rather than kludge things up with cut down bushings and extra drilled holes or pounding out the studs and risking paint damage, wouldn't it be best to just cut the studs off with a dremel.
Quoted from balzofsteel:You could use them. You would need a spacer between the bracket and playfield so that the bracket doesn't get mashed when you tighten the nuts. The spacer can be made from the old flipper bushing. You may also need new holes in the bracket ...
IMG_0468_(resized).jpg
Thanks for the advice! I did cut down the old bushing and drilled out the center of it so I could reuse the nails.
Quoted from vid1900:I've actually seen people reuse them like that, with the cut down bushing!
Yea I ended up reusuing the nails because i didn't feel comfortable possibly messing up the paint.. So after I reused the nails I actual cut the nails down using heavy duty wire cutters so they didn't interfere with the plunger when it activated. The nylon nuts stil come on and off with out issue. Thanks for the help Vid and Ballzofsteel!! The only issue I'm having is after 20 hits of the flipper button my flipper starts to slide up. Then I have re align my flipper and try to tighten it.
Great guide, thanks for the help!
Two questions:
What are these flat washers for? They came in my pinball resource kit but don't see any mention of what they are. If I had to guess it would be plunger coil spring base protection. But if I use the other springs instead, probably don't need them.
Secondly- between the three flippers on my earthshaker, one has two diodes on the solenoid, one has one, and the other one has none. Don't see anything in the manual about it.. What is right, and where can I get more?
Quoted from alec_p:What are these flat washers for?
They are used on Bally games between the coil bracket and the coil. You won't need them on a Williams game.
Quoted from alec_p:Secondly- between the three flippers on my earthshaker, one has two diodes on the solenoid, one has one, and the other one has none.
Flippers should be 11630 coils with diodes, upper should be 11722 coil with diodes. 1N4004 diodes, buy 100 of 'em, you need them everywhere in pinball.
Thanks so much for your help. And especially for pointing out the solenoid pn's... all three are 11630. Never would have noticed the upper left was incorrect! Didn't think to check. Despite reading your earlier warning to check. Doh!
And thanks for the info on the diodes. Didn't notice anything wrong without them installed. I understand what diodes do in theory, but what function do the serve on the flipper solenoids? Just curious.
One more follow-up. After some searching, I see that 11722 is supposed to be weaker than 11630. I'm surprised, because I already thought that flipper felt a little weak. So I'd be replacing it with a lower power solenoid (although with a complete rebuild kit, so maybe it's a wash?) Any thoughts there?
Quoted from Starwriter:The loss of power changes the coil into a power generator. The collapsing magnetic field creates electricity. For SS (solid state) machines, a diode shorts out this power, preventing damage to the circuitry.
Thanks. Nothing seems to be screwed up from operating without them for who knows how long but I'll put them in now. Which direction do they go?
Just finished a 3 hour flipper fiasco! I have not taken the time to read every post, but thought I would share my experience in case someone else might find it helpful.
I just finished a 3 flipper rebuild on my Getaway yesterday, and noticed today already that the left flipper had moved about a full cm. So, I proceeded to remove the glass, lift the play field, and make the adjustment and re tighten. After a few games it slipped again (the only one of the three). So, I did some research and decided to roughen the contact area of the flipper shaft with sandpaper. However, this did not work either.
My next step was to swap flippers. Unfortunately, the left still slipped. So, after reading more, I decided that maybe I just needed to man up and tighten the clamp more when, you guessed it, I snapped the bolt. I searched everywhere I keep hardware and could not find a suitable replacement when I remembered that the old flipper assemblies were in the trash at the curb. I was able to find them, disassemble them, and utilize their bolts.
When I put the first one and back on the pin, I ended up stripping the bolt and lock washer. Now I was down to my last bolt, but I was able to find a new lock nut. Before proceeding in futility, for some reason I decided to remove the flipper and dry fit it before trying again. What I found before tightening the bolt was that even with an obviously bent closed clamp the flipper shaft fell loosely through the round holes in the clamp. Suddenly it made sense to me that no matter how tightly I turned the bolt it was never going to grab the flipper shaft sufficiently.
So, I ended up turning the clamp on its side and hammering it to bend the metal in such a way that it closed the two shaft holes. My first effort was too good, and now I could not get the shaft to fit. Using a punch in each hole, I widened both slightly until the shaft just fit through on both sides. Another dry fit with tightening of the bolt, and I could not turn the shaft by hand. I loosened everything, reinstalled into the pin, tightened moderately, and finally the flippers all work flawlessly.
So, what I learned is that you can't assume that a tight bolt will sufficiently bend the metal in such a way to guarantee a tight grab on the shaft. However, if you make sure the shaft has a snug fit first, then a moderate tightening of the bolt will do the job.
Quoted from Mr_Tantrum:Just finished a 3 hour flipper fiasco! I have not taken the time to read every post, but thought I would share my experience in case someone else might find it helpful.
I just finished a 3 flipper rebuild on my Getaway yesterday, and noticed today already that the left flipper had moved about a full cm. So, I proceeded to remove the glass, lift the play field, and make the adjustment and re tighten. After a few games it slipped again (the only one of the three). So, I did some research and decided to roughen the contact area of the flipper shaft with sandpaper. However, this did not work either.
My next step was to swap flippers. Unfortunately, the left still slipped. So, after reading more, I decided that maybe I just needed to man up and tighten the clamp more when, you guessed it, I snapped the bolt. I searched everywhere I keep hardware and could not find a suitable replacement when I remembered that the old flipper assemblies were in the trash at the curb. I was able to find them, disassemble them, and utilize their bolts.
When I put the first one and back on the pin, I ended up stripping the bolt and lock washer. Now I was down to my last bolt, but I was able to find a new lock nut. Before proceeding in futility, for some reason I decided to remove the flipper and dry fit it before trying again. What I found before tightening the bolt was that even with an obviously bent closed clamp the flipper shaft fell loosely through the round holes in the clamp. Suddenly it made sense to me that no matter how tightly I turned the bolt it was never going to grab the flipper shaft sufficiently.
So, I ended up turning the clamp on its side and hammering it to bend the metal in such a way that it closed the two shaft holes. My first effort was too good, and now I could not get the shaft to fit. Using a punch in each hole, I widened both slightly until the shaft just fit through on both sides. Another dry fit with tightening of the bolt, and I could not turn the shaft by hand. I loosened everything, reinstalled into the pin, tightened moderately, and finally the flippers all work flawlessly.
So, what I learned is that you can't assume that a tight bolt will sufficiently bend the metal in such a way to guarantee a tight grab on the shaft. However, if you make sure the shaft has a snug fit first, then a moderate tightening of the bolt will do the job.
You could also use grade 8 nuts and bolts, MUCH stronger then the grade 4 (I think that's what the kits come with).
Quoted from Starwriter:You could have just filed the slot wider.
But a hammer is SO much more satisfying to use than a file. 
Quoted from alec_p:One more follow-up. After some searching, I see that 11722 is supposed to be weaker than 11630. I'm surprised, because I already thought that flipper felt a little weak. So I'd be replacing it with a lower power solenoid (although with a complete rebuild kit, so maybe it's a wash?) Any thoughts there?
The upper should be weaker, or you'll be breaking all the close plastics and targets.
A fresh rebuild will put everything back to factory, so you'll play the game for the first time as Lawlor intended.
Quoted from Mr_Tantrum:So, what I learned is that you can't assume that a tight bolt will sufficiently bend the metal in such a way to guarantee a tight grab on the shaft. However, if you make sure the shaft has a snug fit first, then a moderate tightening of the bolt will do the job.
Right, you should not have to crank down crazy tight to hold the flipper.
Dremmel or file the gap so that moderate tightening will hold the shaft:
Quoted from MustangPaul:You could also use grade 8 nuts and bolts, MUCH stronger then the grade 4 (I think that's what the kits come with).
Those kits probably come with grade 0 bolts.
You can break them with a 6" ratchet without even trying.
So if you think to yourself "Wow, I'm really cranking on this and it's still not holding the shaft!" look for another problem.
Quoted from Starwriter:You could have just filed the slot wider.
Problem was that the gap was already closed, I don't have a vise, and I couldn't figure out how to open the gap wide enough. I had already taken the hammer to it before I finally figured out the punch trick to open the gap.
Quoted from vid1900:Q: NO MATTER HOW TIGHT I MAKE THE FLIPPER PAWL, THE FLIPPER SHAFT IS STILL LOOSE.
A: DREMEL OR FILE OUT SOME MATERIAL SO THAT THERE IS A GAP IN THE TIGHTENED PAWL.
---------------------------------
Remove the clamping bolt, and file off a little material.
It won't take much.
As always thank you! how much should I dremel out? and how deep? by any chance do you have a photo of it already done? thanks Vid!
Quoted from HeatedCane:how much should I dremel out? and how deep? by any chance do you have a photo of it already done? thanks Vid!
That photo tries to show that once you tighten the bolt, you still need clearance between both sides of the clamp.
If the 2 sides of the clamp are touching, no matter how much you tighten the bolt, the pawl will not clamp down any tighter on the flipper shaft.
So depending on the brand of replacement parts, you should still have about 1/16 to 1/8" gap once the bolt is tightened down. If you don't, grind more out of the gap.
Quoted from HeatedCane:Also I'm curious why does it need to be dremelled? how does it help?
Most files are too thick to fit in the gap.
A Dremmel cutting disc is thin enough to get right in.
If you have a file, made for metal, that will fit in the gap; of course you can use that.
Quoted from vid1900:Most files are too thick to fit in the gap.
A Dremmel cutting disc is thin enough to get right in.
If you have a file, made for metal, that will fit in the gap; of course you can use that.
A pneumatic grinder with a cutting disk would seem to work well in this case also for those of you who have air compressors.
Quoted from Mr_Tantrum:A pneumatic grinder with a cutting disk would seem to work well in this case also for those of you who have air compressors.
Yep, I cut everything with mine. Steel, stainless, plastic, or even grind down wood. Doesn't work so well on aluminum though.
Quoted from vid1900:That photo tries to show that once you tighten the bolt, you still need clearance between both sides of the clamp.
If the 2 sides of the clamp are touching, no matter how much you tighten the bolt, the pawl will not clamp down any tighter on the flipper shaft.
So depending on the brand of replacement parts, you should still have about 1/16 to 1/8" gap once the bolt is tightened down. If you don't, grind more out of the gap.Most files are too thick to fit in the gap.
A Dremmel cutting disc is thin enough to get right in.
If you have a file, made for metal, that will fit in the gap; of course you can use that.
Worked like a charm Vid!! Thanks so much!!! You are a true pinball wizard!!
Quoted from vid1900:The upper should be weaker, or you'll be breaking all the close plastics and targets.
A fresh rebuild will put everything back to factory, so you'll play the game for the first time as Lawlor intended.
So for my upper flipper I should just get the standard flipper rebuild kit instead of upgrading it to fliptronics? Or should I still up grade it and use a different coil?
Quoted from HeatedCane:So for my upper flipper I should just get the standard flipper rebuild kit instead of upgrading it to fliptronics? Or should I still up grade it and use a different coil?
Upgrade everything, and while you are at it, make sure each of your coils is the correct one.
Quoted from chuckwurt:Got my first DE DMD game today (LW3). How do it mess with flipper power? No EOS switches? Whoa. Never seen that before. Is this a situation where I have the choice of multiple cool types that vary in power?
Anybody got a comment on this one?
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