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(Topic ID: 18292)

VID's Guide to Upgrading/Rebuilding Flippers


By vid1900

8 years ago



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There are 2506 posts in this topic. You are on page 23 of 51.
#1101 5 years ago

Rebuilding the HGT seen above now. I got capacitors to add to them to prevent arcing, but now I can't find if that was actually recommended here or not. I thought I read it somewhere...

If you would recommend it, any tips on how to install/mount it?

Thanks

#1102 5 years ago
Quoted from aobrien5:

Rebuilding the HGT seen above now. I got capacitors to add to them to prevent arcing, but now I can't find if that was actually recommended here or not. I thought I read it somewhere...

I don't think HGT came with arc suppression caps, so you can leave them off.

#1103 5 years ago

Hi! Thanks for the great thread.

Help me out to understand the flipper wiring on my F14. The lower flippers have a dual switch. The upper flippers have the single EOS switch. The lower EOS switch is 'coupled' with a switch that closes at the end of the stroke. I want to upgrade to the WPC style flippers, but not sure what to do with this double switch as the rebuild kits only come with the 'one-way' EOS switch.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

IMG_6259.jpg

#1104 5 years ago
Quoted from kilmarnock1350:

The lower flippers have a dual switch. The upper flippers have the single EOS switch. The lower EOS switch is 'coupled' with a switch that closes at the end of the stroke. I want to upgrade to the WPC style flippers, but not sure what to do with this double switch as the rebuild kits only come with the 'one-way' EOS switch.

As you noticed, there are two switches stacked together.

Note also that there is a white plastic insulator that separates the high voltage flipper circuit, from the low voltage switch matrix circuit.

When you rebuild the flipper, you will save the low voltage switch (the one with the diode attached), and the plastic insulator. You will only replace the high voltage EOS Switch.

It is mega important that the high voltage circuit does not touch the low voltage one - or you will blow up the switch matrix.

#1105 5 years ago

Amazing wealth of information .. I love me some snappy ass flippers .. I'm wanting to put more power into my gottlieb cue ball wizards flippers ... Right now , the coils are 25-949's I don't believe those are the right ones..sluggish , non snappy and weak , come to mind .. Hitting the ramp is next to impossible ...vid1900 what's a better coil for this machine ?

Thanks

#1106 5 years ago
Quoted from Dawson:

... Right now , the coils are 25-949's I don't believe those are the right ones..

Should be A-25959

Dude is still gonna nag ya about yer ramp shot.

#1107 5 years ago
Quoted from Dawson:

Right now , the coils are 25-949's I don't believe those are the right ones..sluggish , non snappy and weak , come to mind .. Hitting the ramp is next to impossible ...vid1900 what's a better coil for this machine ?

The proper coil is printed underneath the playfield next to the flippers ( In this case, it's A-25959)

Call PRB and get the proper coils, and a flipper rebuild kit.

Remember you get 10% discount for $100, so look for a few other things to pad the bill.

#1108 5 years ago

Do people think the flippers on Cue Ball Wizard are generally underpowered..

I've played a couple besides mine and they all seemed weak ...

Might be just bad CBW luck ..

#1109 5 years ago
Quoted from Dawson:

Do people think the flippers on Cue Ball Wizard are generally underpowered..
I've played a couple besides mine and they all seemed weak ...
Might be just bad CBW luck ..

Most flippers on old games suck.

Only the cool kids rebuild them for top performance.

#1110 5 years ago

Here we go Vid, my first flipper rebuild on my space station using all your suggestions with the flipper rebuild kit from pinball life.

image.jpeg

#1111 5 years ago

What do you think ? Would a Williams/Bally full flipper kit with base from pinball life work in CBW? I can't see why not..

The rebuild kit for the CBW is about the same cost the whole W/B flipper unit from PBL ..

#1112 5 years ago
Quoted from Dawson:

What do you think ? Would a Williams/Bally full flipper kit with base from pinball life work in CBW?

I would like to do this as well. I replaced all of my CBW's parts including using the shorter System 1 coil stops but I still don't get that Williams flipper feel. Help us vid1900, you're our only hope.

#1113 5 years ago
Quoted from Dawson:

What do you think ? Would a Williams/Bally full flipper kit with base from pinball life work in CBW?

Quoted from BriPin:

I would like to do this as well. I replaced all of my CBW's parts including using the shorter System 1 coil stops but I still don't get that Williams flipper feel.

The Gottlieb A-25959 coil is slightly stronger than Williams strongest flipper coil FL11629, so you would take a small strength hit, but gain the Williams snap and cheap replacement parts.

#1114 5 years ago

I'm having problems with my HGT rebuild. I put the spacer in and tighten the shaft down and it's pulling the flipper down so tight I can barely get the spacer out. When it's done, the flipper is nearly dragging on the playfield. I'm /thinking/ that the shaft is getting pulled down into the previous grooves from the set screws. I've already tried flipping the lower flippers left/right, but it didn't make a difference (it appears they've already been flipped once due to the gouges.

Is there anything to do other than replace the shafts? The whole thing is in good shape otherwise.

#1115 5 years ago
Quoted from aobrien5:

. I put the spacer in and tighten the shaft down and it's pulling the flipper down so tight I can barely get the spacer out. When it's done, the flipper is nearly dragging on the playfield.

That's a known problem with Classic Bally, once the flipper shaft gets a "memory" you are usually stuck with it.

I'd just get some new shafts from PBR (yes, I know that sucks, lol).

#1116 5 years ago

Yeah. Damnit. Thanks.

#1117 5 years ago

Steve told me that gottlieb has a more powerful flipper coil.. The 29876..

I would love to be able to put some got snappy will/ball flip in the ol' CBW, I just think the flipper bases might be too big ? Covering up inserts and wires that can't be moved...

#1118 5 years ago
Quoted from Dawson:

I would love to be able to put some got snappy will/ball flip in the ol' CBW, I just think the flipper bases might be too big ? Covering up inserts and wires that can't be moved...

Wires can usually be moved, even 3/4 covered inserts can be lit by LED flexis.

Make a paper template from one of your other games, and try moving them around and see if they fit (and by fitting, they might not necessarily be symmetrical).

Quoted from Dawson:

Steve told me that gottlieb has a more powerful flipper coil.. The 29876..

I'm sure the correct coils are good enough with a rebuilt flipper. Usually when you put stronger than designed for coils in, plastics and ramps usually start to break.....

#1119 5 years ago

I finally got around to looking my flippers. They work OK but I thought them to be a bit weak. The sleeves were very dirty, as expected. The stops mushroomed. The ends of the plungers were damaged, as expected based on the stops. I noticed that the plungers had a flat spot almost the complete length. None of the other flippers on other machines I have rebuilt have this. Is this something unique to Sega machines?

#1120 5 years ago

I'd just get a complete Sega rebuild kit.

#1121 5 years ago

I rebuilt my flippers on my EBD using the suggestion to downgrade. Everything works great, however I have one issue. Sometimes when the ball rolls down the playfield hard enough and hits the flipper in the hold position, it doesn't hold firm. Instead the flipper gives a bit, the EOS closes, flipper pulses and rockets the ball back up the playfield.

This doesn't happen all the time. Just sometimes. I have new coils installed so I know its not the coil. My FG (with the old mechs) hold without any problems.

Do i need a different coil stop than what came in the kit or is there something else I should try?

#1122 5 years ago

Assuming you have the correct coil, you probably have the coil stop cocked slightly.

Loosen it, make sure there are lock washers under the screws, and tighten it down squarely.

If the base plate threads are starting to strip and won't stay tight, they use longer bolts, lock washers and backing nuts.

#1123 5 years ago

Thanks. I'll give it a shot when I get a chance.

#1124 5 years ago

I fiddled with the coil stop and still had the same problem. I installed the original coil stops and the flippers hold like they should. The coil stops that came with the kit have that indented ring around the center. (http://pbresource.com/rebuildk/kt-bflip-03.jpg)

The existing coil stops are solid. (http://pbresource.com/rebuildk/kt-bflip-04.jpg)

Do I need to buy the other type of coil stops?

The originals weren't in horrible shape but I'd rather use new parts since the rest of the assembly uses new parts.

#1125 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Here in this picture, we can see the differences between the older Flipper Shafts and the modern style.
Note how the Set Screws have dug a hole by displacing the surrounding metal into a mound.
Note the groove/keyway cut near the end of the shaft is deeper than the metal mounds.
This allows the Flipper to be removed, despite the mound of displaced metal.
If you ever put a modern flipper shaft into the older style Pawl, you will NEVER be able to remove it. The mound of metal will cause it to permanently bind, and you will have to cut it out.
NEVER PUT A MODERN FLIPPER INTO AN OLD STYLE MECH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ever.
Because the shafts get permanent holes in them from the Set Screws, that is why we marked which flipper came from which mech. The Set Screws "find" the old holes as soon as you begin tightening them.
FLIPPER-SHAFTS.jpg

I got my hands on new flipper bats/shafts for HGT but they are the modern style. This game has the circular set screws, not the pointed ones. Is the groove still a requirement for that style of set screw???

#1126 5 years ago

Okay, question -
Why would anyone use the newer coil stops (A-12390) instead of the older A-12111?

As a sample game, my TZ was originally built with the A-12111 pieces. During the recently rebuild, I decided to go ahead and put in the A-12390's.

The travel in the flipper bat is SO limited, I couldn't stand it. Impossible to even catch a ball. I put in new A-12111's, I couldn't stand it. Why go for these 12390 pieces?

#1127 5 years ago
Quoted from Coyote:

Why go for these 12390 pieces?

Our local parts distributor only holds 12390 in stock and he never heard of 12111. He said 12390 replaced 12111 and everybody were getting 12390 nowadays. He ordered them for me and went for 5$ each instead of 2.50$ for the 12390. Lame...

#1128 5 years ago

On TS, the right flipper drops with a delay so it's really hard to make secure passes.
In practice this looks like:
- press the right flipper button = flipper is instantly triggered
- release the right flipper button = after about 0.5 second the flipper drops down

Any clues?

#1129 5 years ago

I apologize in advance as I'm sure I read this someplace and can't find it. Rebuilt flippers on High Speed. Occasionally, not often, the right flipper hangs in the "up" position. If you hit the flipper button quickly a couple of times it releases. The last time it happened, I let the ball drain, flipper still up, then turned the machine off and it went down. If I remember what was said before, that indicates an electrical issue. What am I looking for to adjust?

#1130 5 years ago
Quoted from ALY:

On TS, the right flipper drops with a delay so it's really hard to make secure passes.
In practice this looks like:
- press the right flipper button = flipper is instantly triggered
- release the right flipper button = after about 0.5 second the flipper drops down
Any clues?

Most likely something with the opto board, have you try cleaning the optos? maybe replacing the interrupter with a black one or it could be the board?

#1131 5 years ago

Update: Firepower flipper replacement

I will include pictures when I get home, for the visual. But wanted to get some initial ideas until then....

So I ordered all of the parts recommended, and was able to replace my RIGHT flipper. It is REALLY TIGHT installation, and I had to relocate some of the wires, because I turned around the coils as recommended. The flipper has all new parts, including the base. I wired it up being absolutely sure it matched the existing one. I discarded the original springs and now use the "external" one only.

Installed it yesterday along with a new driver board (the old one fried, and I didn't have the time to try an fix it..... )

Turned on the machine, and BAM, I played a number of games. New flipper has more juice for a trip up to the top. HOWEVER.....

Now that same "fixed" flipper is staying "up", about every three times I press the flipper button. The only way it comes back down is by hitting the left flipper button. So it is almost like current is "hanging around". The coil is NOT getting hot, so I am pretty sure it is wired correctly. I wish I didn't have to change as many things that I did, however there was no driver board available, I had to use my new one.

Any initial ideas on what to check for on the "stuck up" flipper? Again I will post pics when I get home.

As an aside, one of the pop bumpers burnt out, so am looking at "the other guide" to fix that. Excellent resources.

#1132 5 years ago

Do you have the proper clearance between the bottom of the flipper bat and the nylon bushing?? I had a flipper sticking up intermittently, and the previous owner did not use a spacing tool when tightening the flipper bat into the mech.

#1133 5 years ago
Quoted from dmieczko:

Do you have the proper clearance between the bottom of the flipper bat and the nylon bushing?? I had a flipper sticking up intermittently, and the previous owner did not use a spacing tool when tightening the flipper bat into the mech.

I don't have the spacing tool, but I used a credit card, and cut out a notch. When the machine is not playing it moves freely. Again when the other flipper is initiated, the one that is stuck up comes down. This leads me to believe it may be electronic related.

#1134 5 years ago

If it's electronic can be determined by a simple test:

Get the flipper stuck.

Immediately turn off power.

If flipper drops, it's electronic.

#1135 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

If it's electronic can be determined by a simple test:
Get the flipper stuck.
Immediately turn off power.
If flipper drops, it's electronic.

Well, by the time you posted that, I discovered that one of the pop bumpers was out. So I tore it apart. Burnt up coil, awaiting parts from Marco...... In the mean time, I rebuilt the left flipper. Amazing how easy it is, when you pre wire everything. Trying to solder under the playfield is a nightmare even when the access is easy.

Learn I do, each and every time. I will report back if the flipper stays stuck up again after I put humpty dumpty back together again.

#1136 5 years ago

Vid what is your opinion on Data East flipper coils and replacing sleeves? It seems I have always have issues with these coils being tight and causing sleeves to get stuck. Today I tried two different coils with new sleeves. I had a heck of a time getting them in and once I got them fitted the plunger, which is new, kept getting stuck in a ridge that had formed in the sleeve. These are the ones with two narrow labels on top and bottom. Do you think these are original or replacement coils? Mine were several years old sitting in a box.

#1137 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

If it's electronic can be determined by a simple test:
Get the flipper stuck.
Immediately turn off power.
If flipper drops, it's electronic.

I actually tried that yesterday and the right flipper dropped down instantly.
So it's something with electronics...
I swithced flipper opto boards - same thing.
Put EOS switch pads closer - the same.

Noticed that if you press it really quickly it drops down instantly. But it you keep it up for a long time.. like 10 seconds and more it takes more time to return back down!
And one more thing.. the right side has two flippers. If I'm operating with the "second half press" of the switch, to only trigger the bottom right flipper it drops instantly.

#1138 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

If it's electronic can be determined by a simple test:
Get the flipper stuck.
Immediately turn off power.
If flipper drops, it's electronic.

Good deal. What should we check for?

#1139 5 years ago
Quoted from Crash:

Vid what is your opinion on Data East flipper coils and replacing sleeves? It seems I have always had issues with these coils being tight and causing sleeves to get stuck. Today I tried two different coils with new sleeves. I had a heck of a time getting them in and once I got them fitted the plunger, which is new, kept getting stuck in a ridge that had formed in the sleeve. These are the ones with two narrow labels on top and bottom. Do you think these are original or replacement coils? Mine were several years old sitting in a box.

There seems to always be some variation in tolerance with those things, even in Williams parts.

If you have one of those 115 drill bit sets, there is a bit that will **just** ream out a hair of plastic making them fit. (I'm on the road, so I can't go look what bit it is).

#1140 5 years ago
Quoted from rwarren28806:

Good deal. What should we check for?

Clean your flipper switch button contacts.

Adjust them so the flipper trigger in the first 1/3 of the stroke, the rest of the stroke depth will function as a "cleaning action"

#1141 5 years ago

I bought a few new coils from Steve Young. I'm interested in seeing if the problem persists with these and if it does I will try that.

#1142 5 years ago
Quoted from ALY:

I actually tried that yesterday and the right flipper dropped down instantly.
So it's something with electronics...
I swithced flipper opto boards - same thing.
Put EOS switch pads closer - the same.
Noticed that if you press it really quickly it drops down instantly. But it you keep it up for a long time.. like 10 seconds and more it takes more time to return back down!
And one more thing.. the right side has two flippers. If I'm operating with the "second half press" of the switch, to only trigger the bottom right flipper it drops instantly.

Fixed it!
It was plastic around right flipper's opto board that moves when you press the button. It was standing out for 1mm unaligned with the optos on the board. When the flipper switch was pressed and returned back to orginal position this plastic vibrates like a pendulum and one end of it was opening the opto enough to keep the current coming to the right flipper for about half a second until the vibration was low enough so the switch stayed closed.
Simple bend helped fixing this problem so now plastic is aligned and the vibration is not opening the switch any more.

#1143 5 years ago

My Data East flipper coils from PBR came in today. Absolutely no problems with sleeve fit on the new ones.

#1144 5 years ago

Maybe they overheated at some point in their lives and expanded the bobbin.

#1145 5 years ago

Well both coils have been used extensively on location so maybe over time this could be what has caused it.

#1146 5 years ago

Vid, I want to ask you about early Bally SS coil stops, since I need to order a bunch. Below are three that are available from Marco and PBR. After doing a little research, the part numbers all seem to be interchangeable with each other. Every coil stop I've ever used has looked like the Marco unit, with a solid metal cylinder. The PBR unit on the right is noted on his site as "enhanced", and the cylinder looks to be assembled from several different parts. How well does this hold up over time? His early Bally SS rebuild kit and his linear kit show two different stops, but in comparing those already in my Centaur and Space Invaders, I see no difference between the two. Is there an advantage to one over the other? I'm leaning towards the Marco stop, just want to make sure I get whichever will hold up best over time.

While I have your ear: I also need to get new EOS switches for the four flips in Space Invaders. I see multiple switches in each stack but find no info or part numbers in the manual or Planetary's 1980 parts book. I'm sure you must have rebuilt an SI in the past, can you tell me what the part numbers are?

I also have two EOS switches left over from a Firepower rebuild kit, with the "helper" blade. I need to replace the EOS's in my Centaur also, are these the high voltage switches that you had previously mentioned using instead of the standard Bally switch?

ballycoilstops.jpg

#1147 4 years ago
Quoted from jibmums:

The PBR unit on the right is noted on his site as "enhanced", and the cylinder looks to be assembled from several different parts. How well does this hold up over time

The enhanced stops are supposed to not magnetize or mushroom as easily. I use them all the time.

Quoted from jibmums:

I also need to get new EOS switches for the four flips in Space Invaders. I see multiple switches in each stack but find no info or part numbers in the manual or Planetary's 1980 parts book. I'm sure you must have rebuilt an SI in the past, can you tell me what the part numbers are?

Those are stacks of switches. I'm not sure they ever sold the whole stack as a unit. You would just buy they switches you needed and swap them into the stack.

Quoted from jibmums:

I also have two EOS switches left over from a Firepower rebuild kit, with the "helper" blade. I need to replace the EOS's in my Centaur also, are these the high voltage switches that you had previously mentioned using instead of the standard Bally switch?

If they are high voltage switches and have the helper leaf, you can swap those into a Bally.

#1148 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Those are stacks of switches. I'm not sure they ever sold the whole stack as a unit. You would just buy they switches you needed and swap them into the stack.

That's the thing, I've no idea which switches I need. No reference to them in the Space Invaders manual, and the online 1980 Bally Parts manual at Planetary only shows the simpler EOS for a single flipper setup, which doesn't look like any of the switches in SI.

#1149 4 years ago

After 40 years, it is possible that any number of switches have been replaced in your game, maybe even with non-Bally parts.

Post some clear well lit pics and I'm sure we can figure it out.

#1150 4 years ago

Here are pix of both upper & lower switches. Right & left side were identical so I just took the two photos. I think I remember reading that the low voltage switch (with the smaller contacts) on the upper flippers triggers a "shot fired" sound effect, if so then that wouldn't necessarily need to be replaced, right?

lower.jpg

upper.jpg

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