Ugh, I think it may be time to start my own thread so I don't make a mess of this one.

ButtonMess.jpg

Just saw your post Vid. Ok, here it stays.

I'd like to make it like it was supposed to be. If I ever decide to sell it to upgrade to a CQ one I'd hate to visit this mess on someone else.

Looks like I'll need two new Molex connectors and 2 of the boards listed a few posts above?
What else? I'll gather the parts and with some help, take step by step pictures to get it fixed.

Keep in mind that (normally), signals to the other flipper board (the right one) run THROUGH the left one. Hence why there's two grounds, and two 12vdcs.

I'm getting different range of motion on two system7 flippers in a game I'm working on.

1. I'm starting by checking the stops. They both measure equal at roughly 8.5mil
2. The sleeves are new
3. I have grommets in both

Q: What else could cause a different range of motion?

A: Different sleeve lengths!
-mof

201502_FP_sleeve-length.jpg

That's really weird!!! Good catch.....

Does anyone know what the correct size screws that should be used to mount the bushings to the plate? I have some missing and want to replace with new ones and lock nuts. 1980 Williams setup.

They are 6-32 and the threaded part of the screw appears to be 3/8"

thanks,

So this is strange. I wrote in about a week ago describing my Diner flippers as not being weak or underpowered, exactly, but still seeming to lack the same muscle as the flippers on my other Sys 11 pins - to the point of contemplating changing to stronger coils (even though the ones in the game are correct). Everything but the coils is freshly rebuilt from a Marco kit. Yes EOS switch gap/tension, yes new bushings.

Twice since the, during gameplay, the RH flipper has gone limp. Not dead, just totally smooshy. No power, no snap. And in both instances I flipped up the pf, looked at everything, hit the flipper button a bunch more times, and in another minute it was back to normal. I don't know how this would be related to the general "only 90%" feel, or if it is, but I'd sure like to get to the bottom of it.

Ben, you're not making me look forwards to actually installing my new flippers once Taxi is ready???!! Did you install new switches behind the actual flipper buttons?

I checked the voltage on the EOS switches recently and they actually read less resistance than my other games', to my surprise. Will check the coil voltage if/when this happens again, thanks.

You also have to watch out for somebody using CA Glue on these nuts, I have tried removing hex nuts from flipper pawls on late 70's- early 80's model Bally's and could not get them to budge... finally tried a drop of CA debonder and it came right out.

Where's the best place to buy pawls for wpc / wpc 95 games?

I had been buying them from pinball life but I just went through 3 that folded really easily without gripping the bat.

Help!

Vid, is this true for ALL coils and sleeves (slingshots, pops, etc???). Thanks!!

.

.

Thanks, vid.

-Nate

(okok, I know this isn't a flipper question, but it's only a few inches away...)

I was cleaning/rebuilding my shooter assembly and realized I frequently pull one of these stupid things off the shooter, and replace it with a fresh E-clip -- what the heck is it? It's ugly!

Is it -- someone turning a washer into an e-clip ???

-mof

201503-ugly-eclip.jpg

Dear Vid,
I recently got a 1979 Gorgar.
I'm looking at rebuilding the flippers (of course). I see your notes on replacing the old parts with new parts.

Can you explain why we cannot use newer brackets / tech / solenoids in that particular 1979 game?

thanks,
-mof

Vid question for you will these go in a 1978 Bally Strikes and Spares after using your wealth of knowledge and rebuilding our Sorcerer flippers I notice how lame SS flippers were last time I was at my sisters house. Full Flipper Assembly For Williams/Bally Machines From 02/1992 To 10/1998
Product ID: pbl_A-15205-R-2_A-15205-L-2
Choose A Base Plate : Left
Choose A Coil : SFL-19-400/30-750
Choose a Coil Stop : A-12390 Is this the correct stop?
Also do these now come w/ the good eos or do I still need to let Terry know I want the hv ones? This machine was given to us not working and I am in the process of putting a tad of money in it.

Also want to put new flipper contacts in cabinet will these work?
Williams/Bally Flipper Leaf Switch - Single Contact

Price: $4.95 They are half the price of what Marco wants
Product ID : pbl_SW-10A-48
E-mail to a friend | Add To Wish List

Rebuilding a classic Bally with modern WMS parts would make the game play really weird. Steve Young sells the correct parts here:

http://pbresource.com/rebuildkit.html#KT-BFLIP03

Covered earlier in this thread here:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-upgradingrebuilding-flippers/page/15#post-2235465

I'm rebuilding the flippers on my Williams Aztec. The kits came with the wrong flipper bushing (I got late model) but at the same time I had ordered bushings for a Gottlieb which seem to match what came out of the Aztec... are the bushings the same so can I use them pending the correct replacements?

It also has me questioning everything else in the kit. There are two thin "wavy" washers that I can't find on the old assemblies (or in this thread). I am assuming they go between the coil and the bracket .. can someone confirm I need them and that my assumption about placement is correct? TIA

Yep that was why I asked. I was reading back in the thread to this

What came out of the pin looks like the left ... what I received in the kit looks like the part on the right. The part I was sent for my Gottlieb looks like the part on the left.

It is labeled as A2408 ... it seems to cross reference to the Williams part (at least on Marcos' site) I was just hesitant to use it because for all I know it is wrong too

Why the HELL are the holes in the coil lugs so DAMN SMALL!!!! If you gotta get more than one wire through there, good luck!!! (Can ya tell I've been doing a lot of soldering lately??)....

Geeeesh!

Would having the shorter bushing in the older game cause airballs? My Aztec gets crazy airballs off the flippers, I'm thinking this might be why, need to check when I get home.

Thank you sir, I have a set and I'll swap them post haste

I thought it would be interesting/useful to look at that and determine if it is or isn't safe to use an uninsulated EOS switch.

Conclusion: It's probably OK to not have insulation, but you really should anyway (i.e. exactly what Vid says). Basically, if the metal in the flipper assembly is not grounded (and I believe it isn't in most machines), you won't hurt anything. The whole flipper assembly may rise up to 40V (or whatever your coil voltage is) whenever you press the flipper button, but that should be OK if the metal in the flipper assembly is floating (not grounded or tied to any other voltage). However if (by design or by accident) your flipper assembly IS grounded, hitting the flipper button once could lock the hold coil in the energized position until something stops it (unplugging the machine, a fuse blowing, the coil burning up, etc.). The reason Vid sees so many games using uninsulated switches but still working is because most games don't ground the flipper assemblies (probably to prevent this exact problem). Read on for why this is.

Details: My example uses parallel windings, but the same conclusion holds for series as well. I arbitrarily chose 40V for my coil voltage; it's just an example. I'm showing a left flipper with an EOS tab that is assumed to be electrically grounded. I'm also leaving out diodes, capacitors, etc. because they don't matter in this analysis and would just clutter up the already hideous drawings. Finally, I refer to "Hold Coil" and "Power Coil". I should have used "Hold Winding" and "Power Winding" since they are part of the same coil. But I'm not gonna redraw everything so I'll continue to use "coil" in my example to be consistent. Apologies for the sloppy drawings.

First, here's the simplified schematic of a flipper that is off (not pressed):
Off.JPG

The driver transistor (on the driver board) is off, so no current is flowing and neither coil is energized, which means all the coil and EOS switch terminals are at 40V. Fine. When the flippers are off, the EOS tab is not touching the switch, so it doesn't matter if it's insulated or not.

Now the player presses the flipper button:
Power.JPG

This turns the driver transistor ON, pulling the voltage on the lower side of both coils (and EOS switch) to 0V. Now both coils are energized, and the electromagnetic force they generate is pulling the plunger into the coil really fast. This drawing captures the instant *before* the EOS tab on the flipper assembly hits the switch. Everything is still safe here because (again) the metal flipper assembly is not touching the EOS switch. NOTE: The flippers should have been drawn here to look like they were in the nearly fully extended position. My drawing makes it look like they haven't moved from the rest position, but actually they are almost fully extended.

Finally the metal flipper tab will hit the EOS switch. Here's the expected/correct scenario:
Hold.JPG

The EOS tab on the flipper pushes the EOS switch open, cutting the current to the Power Coil, leaving the Hold Coil energized which keeps the flipper up until the player lets off the flipper button. Note that when this happens the B winding of the Power Coil goes to 40V, since there's no longer any current going through the coil. However if this happens the Hold Coil will stay engaged even if the driver transistor is turned off (the circuit is now completed through the EOS switch to the flipper assembly), so you would have to cycle the power to the pinball machine to turn it off.

But what if we flipped the wires on the EOS switch?
Disaster.jpg

If the flipper assembly is grounded, the answer is a possible failure. If this happens, the EOS switch still opens, but the metal in the grounded flipper assembly is now touching winding B so it conducting the current through the power coil (it bypasses the EOS switch and the driver transistor). While the Hold Coil (winding) is designed to stay on indefinitely, the Power Coil (winding) is only designed to be on the the short time the flipper is moving. If it is on continuously it will draw and a fuse doesn't blow, the Power Coil will start to overheat, eventually expanding and/or smoking until it either open circuits (fails - you'll need a new coil) or you cycle power on the machine.

Again, this is ONLY a problem if your flipper assembly is grounded, and I believe most of them are not grounded from the factory to prevent this exact problem. But you never know: someone might run braid to the flippers when they're repairing/restoring a pin, or ground custom LEDs with the flippers assembly, or (probably most likely) an existing lamp socket or other terminal gets bent and touches some part of the flipper assembly.

So the odds are pretty low that an uninsulated EOS switch will cause a problem: the flipper assembly has to be somehow connected to ground or another voltage and that's not the way flippers are normally designed. But we all know stranger things have happened in pinball...

Finally, I believe some EOS tabs are themselves insulated (a rubber sleeve over the tip, etc.). If that's the case, it's the same as having an insulated switch. (At least until the sleeve wears/falls off. )

Your Hold Mode 1 scenario is not going to work the way you think it does. If the flipper assembly is grounded as you show it, the flipper would stick up and never come back down until you turned the game off. The reason neither of these Hold Mode 1 or 2 scenarios are a problem because the flipper assembly is not grounded.

How? The bottom of the coil isn't connected to anything in Hold Mode 1.

The reason neither of these Hold Mode 1 or 2 scenarios are a problem because the flipper assembly is not grounded.

That might be why I said:
"if the metal in the flipper assembly is not grounded (and I believe it isn't in most machines), you won't hurt anything."

"Again, this is ONLY a problem if your flipper assembly is grounded, and I believe most of them are not grounded"

"So the odds are pretty low that an uninsulated EOS switch will cause a problem: the flipper assembly has to be somehow connected to ground or another voltage"

In your diagram for Hold Mode 1, current will flow from the source voltage through the hold winding and into ground on your flipper pawl. Therefore, the flipper will stay up as you have bypassed the flipper switch. This is per your drawing. If you change the scenario by saying the flipper assembly is not grounded, then your drawing no longer represents that scenario (and then the flipper will operate just fine).

Oh man, you're right! How did I miss that?

So the correct answer is that if the flipper assembly is grounded, the coils could stay energized no matter which way the EOS switch is wired. Thanks for catching that. I edited my original answer to reflect that.

Personally, I never thread wires through solder lugs. The main reason being that if you ever need to replace the coil (or switch, or lamp socket, or whatever), it's really hard to get the wires out without mangling the strands. This means when you go to resolder you'll need to cut off the chewed up end of wire and strip back the insulator even further, making your wiring harness leads shorter and shorter everytime you work on them.

I prefer instead to first tin the solder lug then tin a freshly stripped section of wire. If soldering multiple wires to the same lug, I twist the wires together before tinning. Place the iron on the lug and when the solder becomes molten, place the tinned end of the wire onto the lug. When you see the solder "flow" into the wire strands, remove your iron and hold the wire in place until the solder cools.

image.jpg

Yes, this technique is more prone to a wire falling off due to a cracked joint, but on the flip side it's very easy to reattach and if you ever need to replace the coil you won't need to cut further into the wiring harness. Plus, as you pointed out, the lug pictures above with 3 wires attached to it would be darn near impossible to solder with the wires soldered through the lug.

Dumb question probably, but I'm crossing this bridge for the first time: Is there an easy way to install new flipper return springs? I am vexed by these little devils. I can get the first end on the spring tab no problem but connecting the other end is a bitch.

I use needlenose pliers to grab the tip of the loop and manhandle it into the appropriate hole. You can try to put the main spring on one side of the metal and the pliers/tip on the other side. Then you can usually guide the end of the spring into the hole without everything snapping away.

Connect the spring at both ends before putting the spring tab onto the bolt that clamps down the crank. Super simple that way.

Ooh this is good, I'm trying to do it with everything already in place. This NF had no return springs on any of its 3 flippers.

It is a PITA to connect the springs without damaging them when everything is in place. You will be amazed at how easy it is with the spring tabs loose. NF is a great game - good luck getting it up and running!

Never had much love for it but as pinball goes, after rehabbing one for a quick flip I'm wanting to keep it

It is not a game for those who love deep rule sets and lots of different challenges. But if you like speed and flow and adrenaline, it is pure awesome! I played a few games on mine today after taking a break from it for a couple months. Made me remember why it was one of my favorites before AC/DC started hogging all my game time.

It's totally High Speed III.

Vid,

Thank you for this guide. It has been very helpful in rebuilding my F-14 flippers.

I cannot get my new coil stop bracket to tightly hug the coil. Whenever I tighten the allen bolts, the coil stop has a tendency to push away from the coil and it results in a loose fit. I have tried squeezing the brackets together as hard as I can, but it doesn't help at all. When using my old coil stop, it makes a nice and tight fit.

I compared the old coil stop to the new and they appear to be identical in angle. What is causing the loose fit for my new coil stop, and what can I do to fix it? Should I try bending the coil stop bracket so the fit is tighter?

Thank you